Project Appleseed

Appleseed Welcome Center => Ask an Instructor! => Adaptive Appleseed Program => Topic started by: desertrat144 on December 23, 2009, 05:59:21 PM

Title: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: desertrat144 on December 23, 2009, 05:59:21 PM
Hello all, thanks for stopping by.  Adaptive Appleseed has had two new posts up since Dec. 20, with 100 views and only one comment!  While I would like to think these two Appleseed changes are well crafted, I know there is room for improvement.  Here's where you come in, read the posts at: ( AND ( and let us know if we are on target, or forgot something.

The team at A.AS thanks you, and future Adaptive shooters will thank you, too.
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: Old Dog on December 23, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
If the person is in a wheel chair the range better be flat enough that they can be wheeled to the firing line and be sure of not rolling past the firing line.

Someone will have to post their targets and bring their targets back.  An instructor will need to spend one on one time going over their targets back at the firing line with them as they won't be at the target line at the end of every stage like everyone else.

If they have hearing issues the abilities of the person turning speech/instruction into sign language will affect the communication/learning.

The part about discussing ahead of time their fatique signs is good, maybe whoever they show up with should be part of the discussion as they may be spending enough time with the disabled person to have seen things that person hasn't recognized (my dad used to hunt with a guy who was diabetic, dad always carried a couple of small cans of apple or orange juice with him because he said his buddy would sometimes get to talking funny/different and that was a sign that he needed to sit down and drink a can of juice.  Dad had learned that was sign of impending problems that he could see/hear before his buddy even recognized it was starting.)

Extremes in weather may have more of an effect on these folks since they may not be benefiting from the normal amount of movement at Appleseeds.  They may get cold or hot quicker.

Maybe someone should rent or borrow a wheelchair and then take it to the range and do some shooting from it to see what types of issues you find getting in/out of a sling supported firing position. 

Also, think about how that person will end up with a "safe" rifle after the cease fire.  Will they leave the rifle on their lap or will someone have to set it on the mat and pick it up for them when the "fire" command is given.
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: desertrat144 on December 24, 2009, 12:38:34 AM

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

Folks that use wheel chairs, manual or powered are extremely aware of the limitations.  Types of ground, obstacle heights, stability etc. a part of daily movement & equally, problems presented.

I'll generalize here, but on most Public Ranges used, getting out to the targets will not be an issue.  The remoteness of Private Ranges and the natural obstacles may be the 'deal breaker'.  All we can do is try to help out.

Re: Deaf or hard of hearing shooter, visit the Hearing Impaired Student at: ( thread on this board.

Re: Weather effecting the student.  This is dealt with specifically in the Vet's thread.  Not a perfect resolution, but things that work for me.  Hopefully things that can be made to work for others, or give them ideas.  The whole adaptive part deals with a constant learning curve we're all on, and hopefully will share.

Re: Making the rifle safe- that's something that will have to be dealt with case by case.  I'm effectively a paraplegic, but could shoot from a mat, so no problem there.  For someone attending alone, but can't get out of a chair, a small & solid table may work.
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: DrJohn on December 24, 2009, 08:35:13 AM
I am happy this issue has been raised.  As a new IIT, and therefore green as grass, this consideration has occurred to me.  When I lived in Colorado years ago, the idea of helping people with physical impairments to learn to ski was just getting started.  Several years later, modifications in equipment and technique had allowed even blind skiers to ski skillfully.
Skill at arms is an American birthright, just as liberty is.  I fully support the effort of every American to become proficient in marksmanship.  Each of us has our own combination of talents and weaknesses.  Perhaps the person with a physical handicap would make a great recruiter or a wonderful storyteller of April 19, 1775.  Without question it would further improve our public image.  I believe anyone who has the torch of liberty burning in his or her heart is a potential Appleseeder.  Let's be as inclusive as we can, and the details of how this will be done can be worked out case by case, as the situation presents itself. 
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: Nickle on December 24, 2009, 11:36:04 AM
Desertrat, I get caught up in a lot here, but, should you have any concerns, or anything  Ican help you with, PM me, I'll reply.

Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: Fred on December 24, 2009, 11:38:49 AM
     I seem to recall an AAR where a guy showed in a wheelchair, and access from parking to the line was a surface not friendly to rolling across (mud, sand, large rocks, soft gravel? - sorry, I don't remember), so a half-dozen guys picked him up, wheelchair and all, and carried the whole shebang to the line.


     That's Appleseed.

     Man, I love this program!

      O0 :)
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: desertrat144 on December 24, 2009, 02:03:34 PM
To every one that's read these posts, THANK YOU, and a special THANKS to those that shared their thoughts & concerns on this subject.  Once again Appleseeder's have have stepped up to the plate.  Please believe me when I say that Appleseed as a Community, is more proactive in its concerns for their members and participants than a lot of other organizations.

To those that do not think they have the 'experience or whatever' to ask a question- ask anyway; the 'dumb question' is the one unasked!  ;)

To quote Fred: "Man, I love this program!" and I'll add "That everyone from top Admin, to newest Newbie are great, too!"

On behalf of A.AS, we wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy & Prosperous New Year!
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: GoldFish on December 24, 2009, 07:55:07 PM
Another person who is helping with somewhat handicapped people is my fellow IIT, Lyberty.  We had a deaf women at a shoot in Athens, Ohio, and Lyberty performed sign-language the whole weekend so this lady could understand the instructions, etc. and enjoy herself shooting.  WTG Lyberty!

Merry Christmas, ya'll!

Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: desertrat144 on December 26, 2009, 04:12:20 PM
Not to worry, we've got her onboard!  O0 While her name doesn't appear as a moderator, she did not escape!  :)
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: spitstickler on February 15, 2010, 04:06:40 AM
Hey Desertrat,

I just wanted to say thanks for starting/driving this initiative. I'm a green IIT as well and helped work a booth at a gun show this past weekend. Without seeing the activity around this effort I probably wouldn't have thought to approach the many handicapped individuals I saw this weekend about attending an Appleseed. I'd not seen someone with a physical limitations at a shoot that I've attended, and without your posts in this regard my ignorance would surely have continued.

Some of the folks I talked to seemed a little hesitant at first. But, after assuring them that as long as they were able to safely handle a rifle, we would make any accommodations necessary possible for them to have a spot on the line. That brought out a lot of smiles and a more than typical amount of enthusiasm when compared to the average joe I talked to. Many of these folks were veterans as well and certainly known a lot more about making a sacrifice than I personally do. Our message resonated well and I hope to see some of these folks come out.

Thank you! dr144

Thanks again for shedding some light on this aspect of Appleseed.
Title: Re: YOUR Help Needed- read & post your thoughts.
Post by: dwarven1 on April 25, 2010, 09:39:36 PM
I'm a little late to the party here, but one thought that occurred to me is that we need to make sure our Red Hats aren't trying to be TOO helpful.

Remember, these are proud Americans we're talking about. True, they maybe can't walk or whatever, but THEY KNOW THEIR LIMITATIONS.

Two stories to illustrate this: Many years ago, when I was in college, I was friends with a guy in a wheelchair. I foolishly bet him $10 that he couldn't wheelie from the student center to the dorms - about 1/4 of a mile. That was a $10 lesson I've never forgotten. He could, easily.

Fast forward 20 years or so and I'm working with a man who has a birth defect so that he's basically got only a thumb on his left hand and a thumb and forefinger on his right. A few times I'd offered to help him with something and he always refused. I stopped offering because I noticed that he could always DO the stuff. Maybe not as fast or as dexterously as I could, but he could. I was actually proud when, one day years later, he did ask my assistance with something. Showed he trusted me and that he appreciated that I'd stopped offering all the time. (as near as I can tell, about the only things he CAN'T do are play Cat's Cradle and give someone the finger!)

Anyway, the point of this is to remind us all is that handicapped is different than crippled. If the shooter is in a wheelchair, ASK him if he can ground the rifle before offering someone to help him do so. Explain what is needed and let HIM decide if he'll need assistance. If the shooter is missing a hand or an arm, talk to him and work out, together, what is needed.

Hope I'm not rehashing something that maybe got mentioned somewhere else, but I thought it was important enough to post about it.

Thank you for the post.  Everyone is going to be on the learnng curve here as you point out about simply being able to ground the rifle.  Hopefully the Down 'n' Dirty Admssions Manual at ( will help those that haven't had to deal with these issues.  Our goal is to get folks back to the line, and helping as needed.  Thanks for sharing your experiences.  dr144