Hey all, I'm thinking about giving my colored hat a break for a weekend later this year and signing up as a student for KD, as I've never done anything like that before. What kind of a scope for my AR would give my old eyes the best chance of success at a KD?
Quote from: Captain America on February 27, 2019, 11:44:05 PM
Hey all, I'm thinking about giving my colored hat a break for a weekend later this year and signing up as a student for KD, as I've never done anything like that before. What kind of a scope for my AR would give my old eyes the best chance of success at a KD?
Any good glass will get you there.
FWIW - Clan Monkey has run two Primary Arms 1x6 ACSS reticle scopes, link here (https://www.primaryarms.com/?vid=MaNaNLNpAvdrQt-p&chrole=14&ck=IGkb7chpAqoSta2m&cktime=166987&cart=3923101&promocode=&promocodeaction=overwrite&shipmeth=8494&sj=POD99eXAudh6nAikrPEt3Trao%3B1551325548112&gc=clear&fragment=/primary-arms-slx6-1-6x24mm-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-5.56-5.45-308-reticle&lang=en_US)
Using the Appleseed Instructor Discount via ExpertVoice, we've also run a Diamondback Tactical EBR-2C(MOA). Very clear picture at 16x magnification, to at least 800 yards.
Each of the scopes are great for the money. In the spirit of transparency, I've become a huge fan of the ACSS reticle, but anything small past 500 yards gets a bit challenging.
Hope this helps.
I did fine with a 3-9x50 I have also taken a 2-7x32 to 400 both work well.
both the 3-9 and the 2-7 were vortex cross-fireII it is a decent budget rifle scope at about $150 , I like the Nikon p-series 2 piece mounts as they allow you to get the scope where you need it and are reversible if you you need one forward and one back it is not an issue
many will work this is just my preference and good value for the dollar.
I do like my vortex diamond back tactical 4-12x40 VMR-1 recital nice for ranging but isn't really needed and doubles the cost of entry.
I liked my Primary Arms 4.5-14x44mm FFP mil dot scope so much I bought another one. I used it last week at 600 yards with no problems. https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-14x44mm-riflescope-mil-dot-pa4-14xffp
Reviewed here https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/foghorn/gear-review-primary-arms-4-14x44-mil-dot-ffp-scope/
Monkey, since I'm a brand new red hat, how do we get a discount on vortex? How do I sign up?
And for all, at the danger of exposing my ignorance, how in layman's terms does the mil dot differ from the MOA scopes that I'm more familiar with?
See this thread for the answer to your first question.
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52846.msg353167#msg353167
The answer to the other question is "it is just a different way to measure angles". Here is an article on it. https://www.snipercountry.com/mrad-vs-moa/
Another question you need to answer for yourself is "do I want a First Focal Plane" or Second Focal Plane" scope?
Quote from: Captain America on February 28, 2019, 12:15:55 AM
Monkey, since I'm a brand new red hat, how do we get a discount on vortex? How do I sign up?
And for all, at the danger of exposing my ignorance, how in layman's terms does the mil dot differ from the MOA scopes that I'm more familiar with?
A mil-dot scope's reticle has these dots 1 mil apart from each other to make compensating for drop and windage easy.
(https://www.primaryarms.com/SSP%20Applications/NetSuite%20Inc.%20-%20SCA%20Mont%20Blanc/Development/img/PA4-14XFFP_18.jpg?resizeid=7&resizeh=0&resizew=2000)
If you're not familiar with it at all here's an explanation.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/mil-dot-made-easy/ (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/mil-dot-made-easy/)
Personally I'd rather go with something like the ACSS Raptor reticle that gives you some wind holds as well at each BDC point.
(https://www.primaryarms.com/SSP%20Applications/NetSuite%20Inc.%20-%20SCA%20Mont%20Blanc/Development/img/PA1-6X24FFP-ACSS-RAPTOR-5.56_16.jpg?resizeid=7&resizeh=0&resizew=2000)
https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black (https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black)
Plenty of other companies have something like the Raptor "Christmas tree" style reticle that work too.
To get the discounts on Vortex you create an account on Expertvoice.com, sign up as an Appleseed instructor and select the Shooting sports experts or shooting sports instructors affiliation, upload a jpg of your instructor credentials and watch the Vortex videos. Bam!
https://www.expertvoice.com/ (https://www.expertvoice.com/)
I've run both a Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x and a fixed 4x Trijicon ACOG with good success. I'd say any quality glass of 4x or more should be fine.
I own four Athlon Midas BTR 2.5-15x50 MOA scopes. They were clearenced out last fall and a gen 2 with zero stop turrets are not out yet. The glass is better than the Vortex PST, but not a good as the PST gen 2 which cost about double the Midas BTR.
At the risk of sounding like a heretic:
Shooters OVERGLASS THEIR RIFLES (they also over-caliber their rifles, but that's a story for another rant). You don't need a 18X scope to shoot at 400 meters...if magnification is good, more must be better, right? In fact, it's just the opposite. It is worse to have a high magnification scope...all it does is just accentuate the normal movement of the rifle at distance. 4X is PLENTY at 400 (it really isn't that far away). You're not trying to make out the exact curve of the numeral 5 to see if the printing was perfect or not...you're trying to get a reasonable sight picture with the cross hair in the middle of the target. Higher magnification actually makes that MORE difficult, not less.
CMP rules state no more than 4.5X out to 600 and my narrow experience shooting at Perry says that is plenty. If you have any fantasy at all about shooting at the National Matches (and really, who WOULDN'T want to?), then I'd stick with a 4X or less scope. Plenty of options, very reasonably priced. Leupold, Vortex, Primary Arms, Bushnell, Nikon, Burris all make scopes that are excellent (<$500 for all and many closer to $300).
Easiest way to think about mils. 0.1 mil = 0.36 MOA or about a third of an MOA. 3 clicks of a mil scope is equivalent to an MOA. The Leupold AR Mod-1 I'm currently running on my CMP Service Rifle is .1 mil clicks. I'd prefer 1/4 MOA but I'm not a good enough shot for it to matter
Reasonably priced 5x ACOG type of scope with ACSS from Primary Arms review:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52386.0
For a little more magnification - 8x - see this review:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54817.0
I like the 5x best though.
Quote from: SteelThunder on February 28, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
At the risk of sounding like a heretic:
Shooters OVERGLASS THEIR RIFLES (they also over-caliber their rifles, but that's a story for another rant).
Count me in the heresy.
I agree with our esteemed Warlord of the West on magnification. Magnification helps you get your NPOA on the target. Once you have that, position, NPOA, and six steps do the rest.
I shot my first 25m rifleman score with a fixed 10x. Could I do it again? Sure. Would I? Probably not. It's far easier to "own your wobble" when it's less apparent.
To followup Steel's post, here is a great scope on sale. It's not CMP Service Rifle legal, the replacement coming out next month will be, but great glass for the price. The turrets under the caps are able to zero.
https://cameralandny.com/shop/Athlon-Optics-Athlon-Midas-BTR-1-6x24-ATSR1-SFP-IR-MOA-213012--Scopecoat-Bundle-MBTRSC/3c268100-175d-0137-8b7d-00163e6c3713?variation=1911756&query=athlon%20midas
I agree about over magnification on scopes. At the KD I shot last year I had the 2.5-15 and didn't used the top half of the magnification range out to 400. Being part of the over 40 crowd I do like higher quality glass and coatings as my eyes get older which has nothing to do with magnification.
Quote from: SteelThunder on February 28, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
4X is PLENTY at 400 (it really isn't that far away). You're not trying to make out the exact curve of the numeral 5 to see if the printing was perfect or not...you're trying to get a reasonable sight picture with the cross hair in the middle of the target. Higher magnification actually makes that MORE difficult, not less.
What he said. I shot my KD Rifleman score with an old 1" steel tube Weaver V7 on my AR-15. I doubt I cranked the magnification past 4x even shooting at 400 yards.
I don't know about you, but I keep having to tell my students to turn that magnification DOWN. All they do is twitch if they crank it up to 9 when they see their heartbeat magnified in the scope!
:partytime:Yea, I'm not a heretic!!! :partytime:
Some good options, based on what I've seen on the Service Rifle line:
Nightforce 4.5X Service Rifle scope http://nightforceoptics.com/competition/4.5x24
Beautiful scope, the "standard", stupid expensive (~$1900)
March 1-4.5X http://marchoptics.com/shop/brand_march-optics/secondfocalplane/1-4-and-a-halfx24mm-scope
Again, purpose built, even more stupid expensive (~$2400)
SDI Bresser Condor 1-4X https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle. Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price
Leupold scopes
Mark AR Mod 1 -- What John Hollinger at WOA was recommending/selling for quite a while. I'm running one...nicely priced (<$300) and great glass
They have a new VX 4.5HD that is supposed to be all that but it is pretty expensive (~$1200) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/vx-4-5hd-service-rifle-1-4-5x24mm
Hi-Lux 1-4X XTC -- https://hi-luxoptics.com/products/hi-lux-across-the-course-xtc14x34-competition-rifle-scope
Purpose-built service rifle scope. Every feature of the Nightforce/March but $475. Only thing I've heard is that the turret ratchets may not be as durable as the expensive scopes.
Lots of other good options -- Vortex PST Gen 1 and 2 1-4X. They are stand bys. The Primary Arms line -- people may scoff but I've found them to have excellent glass, be durable/repeatable. And a great value.
Don't skimp on the mount. Freedom Reaper mounts are recognized as top of the line, low height over bore axis. ~$150.
Tons of other
Quote from: SteelThunder on February 28, 2019, 01:27:51 PM
SDI 1-4X https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle. Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price
I bought one of Owens' mount and scope packages with the Bresser Condor 1-4x for my CAR-A3 last year. Excellent value for the money ($325, IIRC). The red dot is bright enough for daytime use and clicks are solid. Added bonus: the German #4 reticle isn't too busy, and the red dot is great if you're having a bad day focusing on the reticle - turning the dot on makes step 4A a
lot easier.
I, personally, would stay away from ACSS or any BDC reticles unless you have accurate data on your ammunition in relation to the length of your barrel. Those reticles are specific for bullet weight, powder type and charge, and barrel length. Use MOA or Mildot reticles and use the KD to build your DOPE for your specific rifle. The first day will help you get that DOPE, so if you don't have it ahead of time, you'll acquire it then. Just my 2 cents from experience.
Tim
Well, I shot a KD Appleseed last year with my AR and qualified. For what it is worth, I used a Nikon P-Tactical 223 4-12X40 rifle scope. We shot out to 500 yards. Sure, for 100 yards standing I dialed it down to 4X but at 500 yards I used 12X magnification and was glad to have it. Nikon scopes may not be the best, but offer pretty good optical clarity and function for their price range.
I think how much magnification is optimal depends on your eyes and the steadiness with which you can hold. I can hold reasonably hard prone with a sling and found the extra magnification to be helpful and not a distraction. I was able to put 5 out of 5 shots in the black at 500 yards. Maybe I would have done as well or better with less magnification, but I did not feel that 12X magnification hurt me in any way. Yes, I know those high-power shooters at Camp Perry can shoot out to 600 yards and beyond with a 4.5X scope. I ain't one of them.
I have a pair of the Nikon P-rings and found that they did not provide quite enough forward extension to mount my scope where I wanted it on my AR. I use pretty much a nose-to-charging handle cheek weld and have the ocular lens of the scope mounted about an inch forward of the rear end of the charging handle. The P rings did not quite get it there but were close. I use a one-piece cantilever scope mount.
The Nikon P-Tactical scopes do have bullet drop compensation reticles. But I would agree with PaleRider that it is better to DOPE the scope when changing ranges than rely on the BDC, unless you have thoroughly vetted the BDC with your rifle and choice of ammunition at every range you plan to shoot.
For an AR, it's hard to beat the Primary Arms ACSS 1-6 or 1-8. The ACSS reticle works quite well. I shot Rifleman at my first KD with my 1-6.
Quote from: devilkitty on February 28, 2019, 02:22:23 PM
Quote from: SteelThunder on February 28, 2019, 01:27:51 PM
SDI 1-4X https://www.jarheadtop.com/SDI%20Optical%20SRS%20and%20Mount%20Features.html
Jim Owens recommended, illuminated, circle-cross reticle. Oz has one and they are pretty nices especially for the ~$200 price
I bought one of Owens' mount and scope packages with the Bresser Condor 1-4x for my CAR-A3 last year. Excellent value for the money ($325, IIRC). The red dot is bright enough for daytime use and clicks are solid. Added bonus: the German #4 reticle isn't too busy, and the red dot is great if you're having a bad day focusing on the reticle - turning the dot on makes step 4A a lot easier.
It is shamefully inexpensive--something like $137 at OpticsPlanets, I think the Freedom Reaper scope mount was more. I liked it a lot at Camp Perry out to 600, 4x was plenty (and my eyes are terrible). I also found the reticle, with its central dot, was excellent for shooting at rondel targets. Centering a dot inside a circle was fast and intuitive.
I LOVE my Bresser Condor :P
Primary arms 3x ACSS is just about perfect for AS style shooting.
Clear, very practical reticle, robust, won't break the bank, illuminated for more uhh... interesting... shooting situations.
It's really a great piece of kit.
I did my first KD as a shooter last Fall. From experience, I knew I needed the optical help at 400 yards as my eyes don't resolve the bullseye well at that distance. I also shoot service rifle matches so was limited to 4.5X. That turned out to be PLENTY even out to 600 yards. The scope I chose was a very reasonably priced ($175) Nikon P223 1.5-4.5x20 with a BDC reticle on a Freedom Reaper forward mount ($100). The rifle I shot was a standard 20" Colt AR15-A4 and I used cheap, Federal 55 grain FMJ.
I started out not trusting the BDC so went through the several hours of doping the rifle. In the end, the BDC was damned close and the dope followed the normal 2-2-3-4-5 rule of thumb for come-ups out to 600 yards.
I shot 5 out of 5 Rifleman scores: 224, 233, 237, 238, 225
YMMV
Mitch
I'm another who endorses Nikon glass. I've repeatedly qualified KD with a Nikon P-223 Carbine scope with the fixed 3x. Someone said above that you do not need high magnification even out to 400 or 500 yards and they are correct. The Nikon scope base does nor work loose with repeated firing and the scope returns to zero after dialing in come-ups. This is not an expensive scope but it works.
Tell you what...that new Athlon that Super Trooper discusses looks to be the cat's pajamas in a Service Rifle scope. Same MSRP as the Hi-Lux, similar features, with a few that I like better (side parallax adjustment).
4.5X max mag, adj parallax, illuminated circle cross reticle, 1/4 MOA click, zero stop, 30 mm tube. Wow.
https://athlonoptics.com/product/helos-btr-1-4-5x24-atsr3-sfp-ir-moa/
Anyone have experience with Athlon glass?
Quote from: Super Trooper on February 28, 2019, 11:35:50 AM
To followup Steel's post, here is a great scope on sale. It's not CMP Service Rifle legal, the replacement coming out next month will be, but great glass for the price. The turrets under the caps are able to zero.
https://cameralandny.com/shop/Athlon-Optics-Athlon-Midas-BTR-1-6x24-ATSR1-SFP-IR-MOA-213012--Scopecoat-Bundle-MBTRSC/3c268100-175d-0137-8b7d-00163e6c3713?variation=1911756&query=athlon%20midas
I agree about over magnification on scopes. At the KD I shot last year I had the 2.5-15 and didn't used the top half of the magnification range out to 400. Being part of the over 40 crowd I do like higher quality glass and coatings as my eyes get older which has nothing to do with magnification.
I own five Athlon scopes, love the glass for the dollar. I've replaced a Leupold VX3i for an Athlon Midas because the difference was that great.
The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping. First batch has been delayed to Late May.
Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?
Edit: I forgot about one, I own five Athlon scopes.
Quote from: Super Trooper on March 04, 2019, 12:02:53 PM
The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping. First batch has been delayed to Late May.
Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?
Not ST2, but yes. I would like to see an Athlon "in the flesh".
Terrell -- have you ever done a box test with yours? That would be my only other concern -- repeatability of the turret ratchets.
O0 :bow:
Quote from: Super Trooper on March 04, 2019, 12:02:53 PM
I own four Athlon scopes, love the glass for the dollar. I've replaced a Leupold VX3i for an Athlon Midas because the difference was that great.
The new Helos BTR 1-4.5×24 service rifle scope is per-orderable everywhere for $399, and if you call CameralandNY they will price it at $369 and free priority shipping. First batch has been delayed to Late May.
Steel, do you want me to bring one to HBC in a few weeks?
Quote from: SteelThunder on March 04, 2019, 01:27:43 PM
Terrell -- have you ever done a box test with yours? That would be my only other concern -- repeatability of the turret ratchets.
O0 :bow:
I've done ladder tracking, but not a box test. Online reviews have though.
I hope you guys know that you are really bad for me. Now I'm going to have to build ten new rifles, one for each optic recommended here...
Quote from: Captain America on March 05, 2019, 10:20:07 AM
I hope you guys know that you are really bad for me. Now I'm going to have to build ten new rifles, one for each optic recommended here...
But honey the guys on the forum said I had to do it!
I have two 20" ARs that I use for distance shooting. While I initially earned my patch 10 years ago with an iron-sighted AR, my aging eyes and worsening astigmatism necessitate optics. :'(
The first has a Trijicon ACOG. The TA31F 4x32 with the BDC Chevron reticle. Works very well, and it has a growing track record for making full-distance Riflemen. Two separate people have taken it out on the KD range and earned their full distance patch on their first AQT. Both had never fired the rifle before.
This is the reticle:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ab9aDKg.jpg)
When properly zeroed, the tip of the chevron is your 100 yd aiming point, the underside of the chevron is 200 yards, the top of the vertical illuminated line is 300, and the 4 and 6 hash marks are 400 and 600 yards respectively. The horizontal lines are also the width of a man at those distance (19"), so it's easy to range your target.
FYI, as an aside - be aware that certain optics should not be "boxed." Trijicon is one of my largest customers in my day job. I know most of the engineers, and I'm there on an almost weekly basis. They were emphatic that the ACOGs should not be boxed. The adjusters are designed to be set for BSZ for the rifle, and then left alone. Even when you are making that initial zero setting, they recommend a few clicks, then tap the body of the scope a few times, a few more clicks, a few more taps, and so on.
The second rifle has a Vortex Viper HS 2.5-10 FFP scope. This is from the Kimball/Blue Water KD event:
(https://i.imgur.com/Clm3DRx.jpg)
I hate it when others shoot my rifle better than I can.... !@#)
Grindstone was holding right at -10 MOA on the reticle, right edge of the target to compensate for wind.
This is the reticle - a little "busier" than the ACOG, but useful once you get used to it and dial it in for your particular rifle:
(https://i.imgur.com/agjgJUN.jpg)
Both optics have their strengths and weaknesses. For slower fire, precision work, I'd probably go with the scope. But if I ever get a chance to go on MTC's UKD popup range, where I'd have to range and take the shot quickly, the ACOG would be the better choice. Less magnification, but less thought needed as well.
Paraphrasing what Bill Winkle told me at Atterbury
"SteelThunder Grindstone can be on my fire team"
Quote from: ITB on March 06, 2019, 06:19:33 PM
FYI, as an aside - be aware that certain optics should not be "boxed." Trijicon is one of my largest customers in my day job. I know most of the engineers, and I'm there on an almost weekly basis. They were emphatic that the ACOGs should not be boxed. The adjusters are designed to be set for BSZ for the rifle, and then left alone. Even when you are making that initial zero setting, they recommend a few clicks, then tap the body of the scope a few times, a few more clicks, a few more taps, and so on.
That's interesting; I haven't heard this before. As an engineer, that got me curious. Next time you're up that way, would you mind asking their guys to elaborate on it? The Trijicon people are smart cookies, and I'm sure there's a good reason. I wonder if the same logic might apply to other optics that I (or our students) have.
Quote from: Nashville Stage on March 07, 2019, 11:49:25 AM
Quote from: ITB on March 06, 2019, 06:19:33 PM
FYI, as an aside - be aware that certain optics should not be "boxed." Trijicon is one of my largest customers in my day job. I know most of the engineers, and I'm there on an almost weekly basis. They were emphatic that the ACOGs should not be boxed. The adjusters are designed to be set for BSZ for the rifle, and then left alone. Even when you are making that initial zero setting, they recommend a few clicks, then tap the body of the scope a few times, a few more clicks, a few more taps, and so on.
That's interesting; I haven't heard this before. As an engineer, that got me curious. Next time you're up that way, would you mind asking their guys to elaborate on it? The Trijicon people are smart cookies, and I'm sure there's a good reason. I wonder if the same logic might apply to other optics that I (or our students) have.
It makes sense as the ACOG (and most other scopes) are designed to be zeroed and left alone. Dialing dope is not something 99% of scope users ever do and so scope click repeatability or consistency is not a concern beyond academic interest. Instead it becomes a case of adjust the scope, fire a few rounds (or whack it) and repeat as needed until the scope settles into a zero.
If the scope has a little lateral drift as you dial 5 vertical MOA to get zeroed or the click value is .59MOA instead of .5MOA that doesn't really change the ability to zero the scope it just may take a few extra rounds as you get through the fine tuning of it rather than it working out mathematically perfectly.
I'm just completely speculating here but it at least it is based on past (well...very long ago) experience as a recovering engineer (step 11 of the 12)
As Lomshek notes above, I can see that behavior if an optic is truly designed to be "set and forget". You only design a product to meet the specific use case for which it is intended...otherwise you're putting money and time into something that isn't worthwhile. ACOG (maybe but for cripes-sake, for the stupid price, you'd think they'd make erectors that more durable) must be one of those. I'd posit that a LOT of your less-expensive, hunting style scopes are designed that way also.
But for ANY scope that is set-up for long range tactical, PRS or XTC (across the course) shooting, if that's the procedure? Throw it in the trash. These sports DEMAND constant range estimation and dope on the scope.
Quote from: Lomshek on March 08, 2019, 12:26:50 AM
Quote from: Nashville Stage on March 07, 2019, 11:49:25 AM
Quote from: ITB on March 06, 2019, 06:19:33 PM
FYI, as an aside - be aware that certain optics should not be "boxed." Trijicon is one of my largest customers in my day job. I know most of the engineers, and I'm there on an almost weekly basis. They were emphatic that the ACOGs should not be boxed. The adjusters are designed to be set for BSZ for the rifle, and then left alone. Even when you are making that initial zero setting, they recommend a few clicks, then tap the body of the scope a few times, a few more clicks, a few more taps, and so on.
That's interesting; I haven't heard this before. As an engineer, that got me curious. Next time you're up that way, would you mind asking their guys to elaborate on it? The Trijicon people are smart cookies, and I'm sure there's a good reason. I wonder if the same logic might apply to other optics that I (or our students) have.
It makes sense as the ACOG (and most other scopes) are designed to be zeroed and left alone. Dialing dope is not something 99% of scope users ever do and so scope click repeatability or consistency is not a concern beyond academic interest. Instead it becomes a case of adjust the scope, fire a few rounds (or whack it) and repeat as needed until the scope settles into a zero.
If the scope has a little lateral drift as you dial 5 vertical MOA to get zeroed or the click value is .59MOA instead of .5MOA that doesn't really change the ability to zero the scope it just may take a few extra rounds as you get through the fine tuning of it rather than it working out mathematically perfectly.
For my AR15's, I have found that the Vortex Viper PST 1x4 scopes and the SWFA Super Sniper in 6 or 10 power are excellent for KD and even the reduced course.
I have used the Super Snipers for many years, I have found that they are bull strong and the target turrets are easy to use, the adjustments are spot on, up and down.
I've been using the Vortex for the last couple of years, seems very well made with the same ease of use with the turrets and the come ups and downs are spot on as well.
I have a Super Sniper on my LRB M14SA as well, works perfectly for my use.
I'll try to simplify where this thread is heading. My 0.02 cents: the best scope is the one you now have and are familiar with.
aj
The "set it and forget it" thing is for prism scopes. You'll notice the capped turrets on ACOG and Primary Arms ACSS prism scopes. The "tap it to get the scope to settle" thing is a byproduct of the prism and supporting mechanism.
Dialing in firing solutions is great for precision work, but for AS, it's not precision shooting.
The scope recommendations are helpful, but I'd like to get input from the community on my use case. I built a 6.5 Grendel upper for my AR-15 lower. I would like a scope suitable for use at 1k yds+. My intent is to have equipment which won't handicap me at TaosGlock & BlueFeather's UD event (for example, https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54380.0 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54380.0)).
Is 8x magnification enough for 1k yds?
What is the preference for 1st Focal Plane vs 2nd Focal Plane? I'm leaning towards FFP, simply because I think it simplifies ranging of targets.
$500 is about my limit.
Any inputs would be welcome.
Personally, I'd go for a second focal plane scope for two reasons:
- You'll usually wind up doing target identification & range estimation at max magnification anyway.
- You'll get a better quality scope for the money with a second focal plane, since FFP comes with a significant price jump. You're going to have a hard time finding a decent quality FFP scope under $500.
Quote from: desert_diver on March 12, 2019, 11:04:33 PM
The scope recommendations are helpful, but I'd like to get input from the community on my use case. I built a 6.5 Grendel upper for my AR-15 lower. I would like a scope suitable for use at 1k yds+. My intent is to have equipment which won't handicap me at TaosGlock & BlueFeather's UD event (for example, https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54380.0 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54380.0)).
Is 8x magnification enough for 1k yds?
What is the preference for 1st Focal Plane vs 2nd Focal Plane? I'm leaning towards FFP, simply because I think it simplifies ranging of targets.
$500 is about my limit.
Any inputs would be welcome.
I think you'll have a tough time with 8x at those distances. Look at what the PRS guys are using. High mag, mil grid reticles, FFP, but $$$$$$.
For what it's worth, the primary arms 4-14x FFP scopes are pretty decent. Are they nightforce clear? No. Are the clicks Kahles crisp? Nah. Is it good enough if you're ballin' on a budget? Probably. FFP removes one more variable when you're ranging or using the holdovers, and I think that's very valuable. If you goof and don't have it dialed all the way up, you're not going to be making big errors like you might be with a SFP scope.
This is supposed to be a step up from the 4-14 and might fit your needs well:
https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-3-18x50mm-illuminated-ffp-rifle-scope-with-acss-apollo-6-5cm-reticle
I've been nothing but impressed with my PA stuff so far. Zero complaints, and my bank account is thankful!
I have a 6.5 Grendel upper for my AR as well. I bought a used Vortex Viper PST Gen1 4-16 FFP for $600, including the scope rings/base. Shooting with a bipod, it is easily hitting 2MOA targets at 800 and 1000. At those distances, I have it up to 16x. I suppose 8x would work for 4MOA targets, since the targets would be twice the size.
My two cents would be to go with the scope with the highest low-end magnification that would work for your purposes (outside of KD), in order to give yourself the highest magnification options in case you feel like cranking it up.
For me, I can't think of too many situations in which I'd be using this rifle and need to be below 4x, so I got 4-16. Definitely get FFP.
Look at the Equipment Exchange on AR15.com, used optics for sale. Vortex has a great warranty so no issues buying one used. Since the Gen2 versions came out, lots of guys have been selling the Gen1 to trade up. Be patient, as items cycle through continuously. Plenty of good stuff from other manufacturers on there as well.
If you're ok with a fixed magnification, look at SWFA. $300 will get you a first class optic in first focal plane that tracks extremely well. As for Primary Arms, I have a 4-14x in FFP, and IMO everything about it is lacking. Also, its about an inch longer at the back of the scope than any other scope I own, forcing you to have an unnatural cheek weld. Also only has a 3 year warranty. It was money wasted.
As far as required magnification for 1k yards, it depends on target size and purpose. If you're into precision shooting, forget the AR platform, the 6.5 Grendel, and the $500 scope idea. If you just want ring some steel on a 4 MOA target, put a 10 or 12x SWFA on it and have some fun. Any more than that and you'll be fighting mirage more often than not.
Quote from: LogCabinShooter on March 13, 2019, 01:07:27 PM
If you're ok with a fixed magnification, look at SWFA. $300 will get you a first class optic in first focal plane that tracks extremely well. As for Primary Arms, I have a 4-14x in FFP, and IMO everything about it is lacking. Also, its about an inch longer at the back of the scope than any other scope I own, forcing you to have an unnatural cheek weld. Also only has a 3 year warranty. It was money wasted.
As far as required magnification for 1k yards, it depends on target size and purpose. If you're into precision shooting, forget the AR platform, the 6.5 Grendel, and the $500 scope idea. If you just want ring some steel on a 4 MOA target, put a 10 or 12x SWFA on it and have some fun. Any more than that and you'll be fighting mirage more often than not.
The 4-14x is a very long scope. It absolutely demands a long cantilever mount.
Thanks to all those who shared their experience!