I need some help from all you riflemen out there :)
In my dry firing at home, I feel like I am really learning to "settle into" my NPOA. When I am completely relaxed, I feel like my support arm is too flat. I have to really stretch my body out to get my sights up to the target. Could you all have a look and tell me if it is OK, or if I need to shorten my sling, or modify it somehow so my support hand is farther back? Thanks for any help you can give me!
Chris
If your support hand were further back towards the trigger guard you would receive better sling support. This can be accomplished in a permanent manner by moving the sling stud, or adding a hand stop.
Hand stop: A barrier that provides a repeatable position for the support hand. (In the 'old days these were normal features on rifles used for position shooting, and frequently were attached to a flush mount rail on the bottom side of the stock to allow the stop to be repositioned wherever needed)
Suggestion: Hit the tractor supply store (or similar country store for horse owners), buy some 'vet wrap'. This non sticky grippy tape will not leave goo on your rifle. Then fashion something about the size of 1/2 of a chalk board eraser (1" thick, 2" wide and 2" long). Vet wrap that to your rifle and use it for a repositionable hand stop.
Here is a fancy one: http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-handstop-2-piece-set
(http://www.laruetactical.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_detail/zz125450_0.jpg)
Your hand position is going to be a result of arm length, upper body proportions, and rifle and sight geometry to put the sights on target with NPOA. Someone with short arms, long neck and low sights will have a different hand position and arm angles than someone with the opposite. Then, ideally, your hand is against a hand stop adjusted to that position (as found on target rifles or added per above suggestion) and then the sling is adjusted for the right length for that hand position. If you shorten your sling and move your hand back, the front of your rifle will rise and your NPOA will be off. Scope height ("sight geometry") is part of the picture: the higher the scope above the rifle, the lower the rest of the rifle will need to be and the farther forward your support hand will need to be.
Glad to hear you are practicing NPOA and dry firing - the best non-bang for zero bucks you can do to improve your shooting!
Yep, put a sling stud a good 4" back from the barrel band. Odds are that rifle is too long for you and the slick butt plate will make keeping NPOA more difficult. If you think it's length is OK, saw 1" off that dude and put a small slip-on "Limbsaver" rubber butt pad on it, that'll result in zero change in length of pull and make it sticky enough it won't slip around. If that's too long, saw another inch off. You'll most likely need to move the scope forward a bit, and you probably need to raise the stock a bit with a cheek pad, or is that one you can barely see, looks like you are "hovering". After while, you'll be able to pick up any rifle and shoot it well, just not as well as you can with one that's fits you a bit better. It's YOUR rifle, do what ya gotta do to make it fit you....O.L.
I'd crank that sling to about half the length it is right now. The "triangle" between your support arm and the rifle should be closer to a right angle than an obtuse. You'll probably need to change your orientation to the target as well. It looks almost like you're laying flat. Get up on those elbows a bit!
You may want to lay down without a sling first to figure out where the rifle rests on that open support hand and then add the sling to that good position.
I think that there are some basic issues.
1. with no clothing to grip that sling will slide down and make your position lower and lower. A sweatshirt for shooting will help with this.
2. You do not need your hand touching the sling swivel. While that works for people with long arms it is not necessary. As you bring your hand back you will likely need to loosen the sling rather than tighten it. When you have achieved the position that works, then mark the sling so that it is repeatable.
3. Olympic shooters are required to have at least a 30 degree angle to the support arm. You are not required to do that but as you pull your hand back and loosen your sling you will find that the issue of being able to get the rifle on target goes away.
4. Once you find the hand position that works, mark it with skateboard tape so that you can find it EVERY time. You don't need anything more than that for a .22 or .223. In general you don't want to use a handstop without using a glove on the support hand. You might try a glove.
Some of the best prone advice and coaching that I have had has come from Ken Roxburgh, USMC Ret. and coach and primary instructor of the Remington-Bushmaster Highpower Team.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UE8RDSyrJY
He's a crusty old Marine, but he knows how to coach and instruct.
A flat position works well for me but if your starting in a high position and end up flat that will be trouble. Tight sling,grip tape, glove,shooting coat will lock you in and might help.
Thank you to everyone for your help! I have a lot of different things to try!
JMdavis, I find that as I relax, my hand slides down to the sling swivel. Would the skateboard tape help with that? Is it possible to relax TOO much? I find that I need to use some muscle tension to keep my hand back farther, which causes my sights to wobble slightly. When I'm completely relaxed with my hand against the swivel, my sights are rock solid.
I'm going to try out all of the suggestions I was given and see what works. I really like the idea of a rubber butt pad, because the slick surface on my Rueger slides around on my shoulder, even with skateboard tape. Although when I am in prone, I am so stretched out that the butt is usually resting on the ground.
Oladcock, it is my goal to be able to pick up any rifle and shoot score with it. I've shot rifleman with an instructor's rifle, but have yet to do it with my own. I feel like I'm really close and hope to do it at the next shoot. I did have to add a cheek pad when I put my scope on - you can't see it in the picture.
Thanks guys! Excited to try out some stuff!
Chris
Quote from: Minutemom on October 24, 2013, 04:03:02 PM
Thank you to everyone for your help! I have a lot of different things to try!
JMdavis, I find that as I relax, my hand slides down to the sling swivel. Would the skateboard tape help with that? Is it possible to relax TOO much? I find that I need to use some muscle tension to keep my hand back farther, which causes my sights to wobble slightly. When I'm completely relaxed with my hand against the swivel, my sights are rock solid.
I'm going to try out all of the suggestions I was given and see what works. I really like the idea of a rubber butt pad, because the slick surface on my Rueger slides around on my shoulder, even with skateboard tape. Although when I am in prone, I am so stretched out that the butt is usually resting on the ground.
Oladcock, it is my goal to be able to pick up any rifle and shoot score with it. I've shot rifleman with an instructor's rifle, but have yet to do it with my own. I feel like I'm really close and hope to do it at the next shoot. I did have to add a cheek pad when I put my scope on - you can't see it in the picture.
Thanks guys! Excited to try out some stuff!
Chris
Some interesting replies here. I like JMDavis' answers. I've been hesitant to reply since you didn't provide a picture from the right side. However, your bolded reply indicates to me that your right elbow is much too far to the right (away from the body) or your buttstock length of pull is too long (or combination of the two) and that you probably aren't pulling up your right knee to get your torso more onto your left side (although not really necessary for thin folks). If you are having a lot of trouble keeping the loop sling up high (if is starts sliding down, you're more likely to let your support hand slide forward to retain sling tension), putting it on low by the elbow (just below the bicep) is an acceptable variation that is used by some competitive shooters.
Minutemom - you might find some good visual reinforcement in this video, particularly around the 5:30 mark.
LD
Having your upper arm and forearm make about a 30 degree angle at the elbow, as suggested by jmdavis is a good suggestion. Doing that and having your loop high in your armpit will give you a good triangle with your arm and sling for the best stability available. Triangles are best for support. This will also keep your loop from slipping down your arm. It will also make it much easier to let your support arm be TOTALLY relaxed, which is a necessity. An alternative to the skateboard tape is a non-skid rubber product made by Kiwi for shoes, which is sticky on one side. It is sold by Wal-Greens, and you could also use it to tape to the plastic buttstock to keep it from sliding in your shoulder, although the rubber buttpad would probably better. Attaching the loop below the bicep, near the elbow is not a suitable suggestion because it will not give you a good triangle, therefore, no support. That is a problem many shooters have when they use the hasty sling improperly.
You could also put lower rings on the scope. I will help get your head down.
Bluesteel, thank you for reminding me to check the position of my right arm and leg. I'm pretty thin and flexible, so I'm not sure if I am actually putting my weight on my left side. I think I am pretty flat on my stomach. What is the "buttstock length of pull?"
Ha ha, so many things to remember! I can't wait until it all becomes automatic for me. What I need to do is spend some time just going through the steady hold factors one by one as I'm in position, Like Mr. Pete taught me to do ;). Does anyone know where I can print out a list, as I'm sure to forget something?
-Chris
Quote from: Minutemom on October 25, 2013, 01:00:27 PM
Bluesteel, thank you for reminding me to check the position of my right arm and leg. I'm pretty thin and flexible, so I'm not sure if I am actually putting my weight on my left side. I think I am pretty flat on my stomach. What is the "buttstock length of pull?"
Ha ha, so many things to remember! I can't wait until it all becomes automatic for me. What I need to do is spend some time just going through the steady hold factors one by one as I'm in position, Like Mr. Pete taught me to do ;). Does anyone know where I can print out a list, as I'm sure to forget something?
-Chris
Length of pull is the distance from the butt to the trigger. If you are small/short arms, then it might be a bit too long for you, which causes your arms to be too "stretched out." A standard 10/22 has a 13.5" LOP, which is usually fine for most small adults and teens, but may not be for you. Pulling the right knee up helps to relieve pressure from your belly and diaphram, as it will slightly raise your right hip, putting a bit more weight onto the left side, which makes breathing easier and reduces muzzle rise and fall with your breath.
Minutemom;
How well do you do when you go from -dryfire- to livefire?? I seem to tend to do the same thing, (stretch out in prone position). That gives a longer "support radius" which I always thought added to sight stability, hence accuracy provided you are relaxed into true NPOA. Just my two cents worth.....
Again I suggest watching the Roxburgh video linked above from the 2012 Creedmoor cup clinic. What Ken teaches along with practice brought my 300 yard rapid scores from the low 90's to the high 90's with cleans (100's) on occasion.
Pay particular attention to the Olympic X discussion in the video. It can work.
Quote from: slim on October 24, 2013, 12:00:02 AM
I'd crank that sling to about half the length it is right now. The "triangle" between your support arm and the rifle should be closer to a right angle than an obtuse. You'll probably need to change your orientation to the target as well. It looks almost like you're laying flat. Get up on those elbows a bit!
You may want to lay down without a sling first to figure out where the rifle rests on that open support hand and then add the sling to that good position.
Minutemom,
Slim's suggestion about
Orientation Angle is the very first place to start -- try working a bit at time toward
30 to 45 degrees toward your support side until you find that place where your elbow is directly under the rifle. I think he's correct -- you're "laying on your rifle". This will move your eye closer to the scope so you may need to move the scope forward in the rings. In your photo it appears you have some room along the scope tube to do so. If it needs to be further forward you will need a longer rail. Brownells has 'em.
Then apply all the Steady Hold Factors for prone starting at you Open Relaxed Support Head working counter clockwise until you get to the Turkey Neck Cheek Weld.
Length of Pull is important as a Rifle that is too large or too small, that is beyond the ability of your personal body geometry to conform to rifle, will be very difficult to shoot with consistent, repeatable, accuracy.
The Rifle's length of pull is the distance form the trigger to the buttstock. Your length of pull can be measured by bending your elbow to 90 degrees and measuring the distance to the pad of your trigger finger in the proper "exaggeratted C shape" you use when squeezing the trigger.
You can check rifle fit by laying the rifle on your forearm with your elbow in the 90 degree orientation (while standing, forearm parallel to the floor) and checking to see if your trigger finger can reach the trigger with the proper shape. If so apply the fundamentals of the position. If the buttstock is too long, time to break out the saw. there are good You Tube videos on this -- Larry Potterfield / Midway USA has one out there among others.
As Ken Roxburgh says "You will not be a consistently accurate shooter until you are consistently fundamental shooter"
The Fundamentals are no more than this:
Build a steady position
Find your NPOA and move it on to the target
Take every shoot by the six steps
(Shoot in Rifleman's cadence)
His videos are awesome, somewhat intermediate to advanced in approach, but totally awesome.
Yours in Liberty,
fisherdawg
+1
Quote from: jmdavis on October 25, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Again I suggest watching the Roxburgh video linked above from the 2012 Creedmoor cup clinic. What Ken teaches along with practice brought my 300 yard rapid scores from the low 90's to the high 90's with cleans (100's) on occasion.
Pay particular attention to the Olympic X discussion in the video. It can work.
OK guys, I did try some different things this weekend, and shortening the sling definitely did not help. I put a zip tie around the barrel and sling about 3 inches back from where the front sling swivel is, and took it outside to shoot some groups. My position seemed MUCH better, and my groups were tight. I think I may end up moving the swivel back. I'm still not sure how I could keep my hand from sliding down the barrel when I'm completely relaxed. Grippy tape didn't work. Dang, I did forget to check my angle and length of pull. I am going to pay attention to that next time. It's a process, but a fun one! I will try to have my son take some more pictures this week, with my hand stopped by the zip tie to see if you all think it looks better.
Chris
UPDATE:
Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct. I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire. I WAS "laying on my rifle." I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle. I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand. It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!). I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out. Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue. Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris
Looking at the photo with your first post, IMHO the scope set up leaves some room for improvement.
First off, your head is way too far back. I doubt you have a good "turkey neck" with that hold. Your cheek should be resting on you trigger hand thumb as it goes over the stock, in front of the comb of the stock.
Second, I'll bet you're using a "jaw weld" and not resting your cheek bone on the comb of the stock.
This is a stock 10-22 set up with a scope the way I recommend.
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy48/Precision32/733c8d90-bf18-4930-9ca0-d4c039f1f9aa.jpg)
The scope is far enough forward that when you sling up and turkey neck the scope has a clear, sharp outline as you look through it. I.E. Proper eye relief. The cheek (comb) riser lifts your head so that you get a consistent cheek weld, not trying to find somewhere on you jaw. When I sling up and get into position, I can have my eyes closed getting into position and when I open them, I don't have to find the correct head position either front to back or up and down. I'm looking right down the center of the scope with a proper eye relief.
This set up uses an EGC 20 MOA scope rail, Leupold 2x7-28 scope with Leupold low rings and a Triple K 3/4" comb riser. Note that the eye piece of the scope is even with the rear of the receiver. A lot more forward than your set up.
I know it's supposed to be "service rifle" but when the service put a scope on their rifles a comb riser was part of the set up.
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 12:49:25 PM
UPDATE:
Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct. I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire. I WAS "laying on my rifle." I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle. I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand. It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!). I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out. Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue. Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris
Glad it hear that! Keep that dry fire practice up. Just shoot a 'dry' AQT several time a week -- takes 15 fifteen minutes, but practice EVERYTHING perfectly. (If only I could be so good, but this is what I aspire to -- and good instruction is aspirational, I think). You'll be amazed with the results. ;D
fisherdawg
Thank you douglas34474! I am going to check all your points tonight. I think you may be right about my scope being too far back - I've been thinking that it may need an adjustment. I'll pay more attention to my cheek weld to see if I need to build the comb up more. It seems like your scope is much lower and closer to the barrel than mine is.
Quote from: fisherdawg on November 12, 2013, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 12:49:25 PM
UPDATE:
Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct. I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire. I WAS "laying on my rifle." I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle. I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand. It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!). I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out. Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue. Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris
Glad it hear that! Keep that dry fire practice up. Just shoot a 'dry' AQT several time a week -- takes 15 fifteen minutes, but practice EVERYTHING perfectly. (If only I could be so good, but this is what I aspire to -- and good instruction is aspirational, I think). You'll be amazed with the results. ;D
fisherdawg
When I say everything, I mean build a proper position with every Steady Hold Factor Correct, find your NPOA and shift it onto the traget, and take every shot by the Six Steps. When you Dry Fire, it is best to keep your Trigger Elbow planted. If you cannot operate the bolt without moving the trigger elbow, see if you can find a helper to oerate the bolt for you on each shoot. :)
Thanks for the encouragement fisherdawg! I will also aspire to a dry AQT several times a week, and hope to beat my best score of 226 at the next Appleseed O0 Then it will be on to centerfire ~~:)
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 12, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
Looking at the photo with your first post, IMHO the scope set up leaves some room for improvement.
First off, your head is way too far back. I doubt you have a good "turkey neck" with that hold. Your cheek should be resting on you trigger hand thumb as it goes over the stock, in front of the comb of the stock.
Second, I'll bet you're using a "jaw weld" and not resting your cheek bone on the comb of the stock.
This is a stock 10-22 set up with a scope the way I recommend.
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy48/Precision32/733c8d90-bf18-4930-9ca0-d4c039f1f9aa.jpg)
The scope is far enough forward that when you sling up and turkey neck the scope has a clear, sharp outline as you look through it. I.E. Proper eye relief. The cheek (comb) riser lifts your head so that you get a consistent cheek weld, not trying to find somewhere on you jaw. When I sling up and get into position, I can have my eyes closed getting into position and when I open them, I don't have to find the correct head position either front to back or up and down. I'm looking right down the center of the scope with a proper eye relief.
This set up uses an EGC 20 MOA scope rail, Leupold 2x7-28 scope with Leupold low rings and a Triple K 3/4" comb riser. Note that the eye piece of the scope is even with the rear of the receiver. A lot more forward than your set up.
I know it's supposed to be "service rifle" but when the service put a scope on their rifles a comb riser was part of the set up.
Nice set up! +++1.
Where does one obtain that rail & cheek riser? Brownell's? :cool2:
fisherdawg
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 03:12:32 PM
Thanks for the encouragement fisherdawg! I will also aspire to a dry AQT several times a week, and hope to beat my best score of 226 at the next Appleseed O0 Then it will be on to centerfire ~~:)
MinuteMom,
I'm sure you'll reach your goal. On CF too! Then why don't you aspire to do it with iron sights? ;) ~~:)
Your confidence will be unassailable! ;D
fisherdawg
I agree, very nice set up! Uh-oh, this could become a really expensive hobby.....as if the price of ammo isn't enough, now I want to go and buy a bunch of gack ;D
Iron sights - yes!!! If my poor middle -aged eyes will cooperate...
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 03:17:07 PM
I agree, very nice set up! Uh-oh, this could become a really expensive hobby.....as if the price of ammo isn't enough, now I want to go and buy a bunch of gack ;D
Keep in mind the more handy and creative (and bold) you are, the less $$$ it'll cost approaching zero. Improvise, adapt, and overcome....O.L.
Amen to that, O.L.! Totally agree!
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Iron sights - yes!!! If my poor middle -aged eyes will cooperate...
Minutemom,
Be sure to file this great post by jmdavis from the latest Appleseed Newslatter about shooting irons with middle aged eyes:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=38372.0
It's outstanding. I coudl not progress past about 184 until I had my optometrist make up single vision lens for my Revision Military RX inserts (hint - V taught me about those) that had only my distance correction, not progressive bifocals. progressives i.e. no-line will frustrate you to pieces on stage 4. I'm going to try some of the stick-on lens for distance past 400 yards. I can go to 400 yards KD on steel with my M1 with GI iron sights
and I turned 55 today! ;D To get out to 500 on D silhouttes, well I'm not consistent yet. Just as jmd describes -- very dependent on light conditions. Anyway, great article for reference.
Best wishes
fisherdawg
Oh, this is gold, fisherdawg. Thanks a million for the link. And, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! You are an inspiration!!
Glad that you found success in refining your position!
Most .22's don't have a long enough scope rail to place the scope as far forward as desired. You can go the route of the EGW extended rail for $40 or you can get a "CQB" compact style scope, which places the ocular lens about an inch further away (then mount it as far forward as possible). I found that the Leapers CQB line to be an excellent value with all of the features you could want. I've got them on both of my Remington 597's. The fixed 6 power ones that only cost me $65. They have AO (can focus down to 3 yards), illuminated mil-dot reticle, lockable and resettable target turrets and come with quick disconnect rings (although they don't work on a standard 597 rail due to groove spacing).
There are two products that help with focus. The Lyman "Hawk-eye" and the "EyePal." Both use Pin Hole technology like the old Browne box cameras. With them everything is in focus, rear sight, front sight and target. Both go on your corrective lens and work great.
I got the Triple K comb riser from Cabela's and the Evolution Gun Works scope rail direct from EGW. The Leupold glass is a little pricey but well worth it IMHO.
Douglas,
You are a gold mine! Thank you ;D
fisherdawg
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 12, 2013, 09:03:13 PM
There are two products that help with focus. The Lyman "Hawk-eye" and the "EyePal." Both use Pin Hole technology like the old Browne box cameras. With them everything is in focus, rear sight, front sight and target. Both go on your corrective lens and work great.
I got the Triple K comb riser from Cabela's and the Evolution Gun Works scope rail direct from EGW. The Leupold glass is a little pricey but well worth it IMHO.
Yep, I was definitely doing a "jaw weld" instead of a cheek weld. I built the stock up about another inch and it's much better. I need to play around with it a little more, as well as move the scope forward.
Looks like you are getting well forward on the stock which makes the need to move the scope forward that much greater. Adding 1" to the stock length is the same as moving the scope forward 1". That will only work up to a point. The small size "Limbsaver" slip-on butt pads will add 1" plus give a non-slip grip. But they are a little spendy. Extended rail, costs a few bucks too. Scope rings with a forward slope, I use them a lot on several platforms and love them but they cost a few bucks too. Here is an example: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/815743/nikon-p-series-2-piece-scope-mount-picatinny-style-with-integral-1-rings-flat-top-ar-15-matte?cm_vc=wishList Another option is a different scope, those scopes with reticle lights and variable power are longer in the back end requiring them to be mounted further forward than others. Lots of options that can help....O.L.
Luckily I have room to move the scope forward in the rings, and I don't think I'll need to move it too much. This is a good thing because adding to the length of the stock I think would make the length of pull too long for my arm. As soon as I have a chance I'm going to post some more pictures to see if there's anything else I need to adjust.
Would you all be so kind as to critique my new position? I moved the scope as far forward as it would go, and although it is still pretty far back, I think it works for me. The edges are crisp and I feel like I am turkey necking. Building the stock up made a huge difference. I feel much better about my support arm now.
Much thanks,
Chris
IMHO it looks much better. You head is resting on your cheek bone, not balanced on your jaw. That little ledge formed under your cheek bone is like the pocket in your shoulder; the good Lord put them there so you can hold your rifle with more stability. ^-^ The true test is to sling up, get down in position and with your eyes closed get into final position, like you would when you confirm your NPOA. When you open your eyes you should not have to adjust your position to make it all work. That builds consistency and consistency builds accuracy. The fact that you see a crisp edge of the scope picture is the determining factor as to if the scope is far enough forward or not.
Personally, I could care less what it looks like, as long as I can make hits with it every time I squeeze the trigger. ^:)^
Quote from: Minutemom on November 15, 2013, 08:50:04 PM
Would you all be so kind as to critique my new position? I moved the scope as far forward as it would go, and although it is still pretty far back, I think it works for me. The edges are crisp and I feel like I am turkey necking. Building the stock up made a huge difference. I feel much better about my support arm now.
Much thanks,
Chris
Chris,
Overall that is much improved. Your support elbow is much more under the rifle. As you breath, does the reticle move precisely verticlely across the target? That's the test. Let's review your prone Steady Hold Factors: 1. support hand open relaxed platform - yes; 2. support elbow under the rifle - looks like it, yes; 3. sling high above the bicep, snug and smooth across the back of the hand - yes; 4. support side leg relaxed and aligned with the spine -- looks like it, yes; 5. trigger side leg drawn up high with shin approximately parallel to the barrel --
I can't tell from your photos; 6. trigger elbow planted firmly -- confirm #5 and then tuck this elbow in just a little -- one inch maybe. This doesn't matter as much on rimfire but it will on centerfire, especially . 30 caliber!; 7. trigger hand - firm handshake grip with 3 fingers drawing buttstock firmly into shoulder pocket - yes I think.; 8. trigger finger in exageratted C NOT dragging wood - yes; 9. turkey neck cheek weld -- looks excellent;
Now inhale, exhale naturally, relax relax relax into the sling, close your eyes and have your photographer assistant card the rear (eyepiece) of the scope. Open your eye and let him remove the card. Is the reticle still aligned within the scope? if so youe've done it!!
Now, move that verifed NPOA onto the target, verify it again and take every shot by the Six Steps in Rifleman's Cadence.
That's it.
fisherdawg ;D
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Iron sights - yes!!! If my poor middle -aged eyes will cooperate...
The beauty of iron sights is that you only have to focus on the front sight. The back sight is a fuzzy ring (assuming you're using Tech Sights or some other quality peep sight), and the target is a fuzzy blob. You build your position, find NPOA, and then keep that crystal clear front sight post just touching the bottom of the fuzzy blob as you take the shot ... voila, the bullets all go into the X ring.
Personally, I didn't believe any of this stuff would work ... slings only, NPOA, 6 steps, etc. and so forth ... until I saw it first hand at an Appleseed this past June that my daughter attended. We only had one rifle set-up and it was for her, so I just sat in the back and observed. After that seed, I ordered Tech Sights for my Marlin 990L, and then spent several hours each weekend in August and September at the range learning how to use them. The last weekend in September I attended my first Appleseed as a shooter.
On the first AQT on Sunday, my 50 year old eyes (that have had some sort of vision correction for the past 40 years), put up a score of 242 using all the techniques taught at Appleseed. I followed this up with another AQT in the high 230's and didn't even get off all my shots in stages 2 & 3. If you're interested, you can also find my Rifleman's Challenge target posted on their Facebook page ... 10 shots in 60 seconds from prone ... I managed to get all but 2 shots in or touching the black 1" circle.
I'm not bragging (well, maybe a little), just pointing out that iron sights are the real deal ... no matter how bad your eyes are, if you can focus on the front sight (to the point of being able to see the scratches in the post), you can shoot well with iron sights. As a bonus with iron sights, you don't have to worry about adjusting a scope ... just stretch your neck out as far as it will go each time. Another bonus to iron sights is that you can't see where your bullets are impacting like with a scope ... just trust your NPOA and shoot.
Quote from: Minutemom on November 15, 2013, 08:50:04 PM
Would you all be so kind as to critique my new position? I moved the scope as far forward as it would go, and although it is still pretty far back, I think it works for me. The edges are crisp and I feel like I am turkey necking. Building the stock up made a huge difference. I feel much better about my support arm now.
Much thanks,
Chris
Gosh, I forgot #1A -- your orientation angle (index) looks much better too!!
fisherdawg
Quote from: TJ Kackowski on November 20, 2013, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: Minutemom on November 12, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
Iron sights - yes!!! If my poor middle -aged eyes will cooperate...
The beauty of iron sights is that you only have to focus on the front sight. The back sight is a fuzzy ring (assuming you're using Tech Sights or some other quality peep sight), and the target is a fuzzy blob. You build your position, find NPOA, and then keep that crystal clear front sight post just touching the bottom of the fuzzy blob as you take the shot ... voila, the bullets all go into the X ring.
Personally, I didn't believe any of this stuff would work ... slings only, NPOA, 6 steps, etc. and so forth ... until I saw it first hand at an Appleseed this past June that my daughter attended. We only had one rifle set-up and it was for her, so I just sat in the back and observed. After that seed, I ordered Tech Sights for my Marlin 990L, and then spent several hours each weekend in August and September at the range learning how to use them. The last weekend in September I attended my first Appleseed as a shooter.
On the first AQT on Sunday, my 50 year old eyes (that have had some sort of vision correction for the past 40 years), put up a score of 242 using all the techniques taught at Appleseed. I followed this up with another AQT in the high 230's and didn't even get off all my shots in stages 2 & 3. If you're interested, you can also find my Rifleman's Challenge target posted on their Facebook page ... 10 shots in 60 seconds from prone ... I managed to get all but 2 shots in or touching the black 1" circle.
I'm not bragging (well, maybe a little), just pointing out that iron sights are the real deal ... no matter how bad your eyes are, if you can focus on the front sight (to the point of being able to see the scratches in the post), you can shoot well with iron sights. As a bonus with iron sights, you don't have to worry about adjusting a scope ... just stretch your neck out as far as it will go each time. Another bonus to iron sights is that you can't see where your bullets are impacting like with a scope ... just trust your NPOA and shoot.
I'd brag some about 242!!
+++1 on
just trust your NPOA and shoot. (by the Six Steps)
Fisherdawg, thank you so much for your in-depth analysis of my position! I'm hoping I have time tonight to get down into position and test myself in the manner that you and douglas34474 suggest. As you both said, that will be the test!
TJ, you have every right to brag. I totally would if I could shoot that score with iron sights! I would like to give it another try. My problem was that I couldn't distinguish the individual targets on the redcoat. It looked like a red blob-line, LOL. My shoot boss's response was "welcome to middle age," he,he,he. That was my first Appleseed, though, and now that I kind of know what I'm doing, I would like to try again. I was using the factory sights on my Ruger 10/22 last time, so I would really like to try out a peep-hole type sight, which is what my shoot boss recommended if I wanted to stick with iron sights. Maybe that would help.
I have already registered for my 5th Appleseed in January, and I can't wait ..:..
I wish I could do it every weekend! I can't wait until I am confident enough with my shooting to become an instructor. IMO there need to be more female instructors. I would be so proud to join the other orange hats on the line :)
Minutemom, You should be able to distinguish between the different target blobs with the peep sights. By forcing your eye to focus through a small aperture, the distant items will become clearer ... not focused, but clear enough that you'll be able to adjust NPOA for the various targets.
Tech Sights are definitely worth the investment for anybody who aspires to be a rifleman. When you place your order, also order the proper sight adjustment tool so that you can more easily dial them in.
You're persistence and practice WILL pay off on the line, and you will take that Orange hat sooner rather than later (I can tell by your writing that you've been bitten by the Appleseed bug). There is also no doubt in my mind that you will become an excellent instructor.
BTW, have you thought about ordering one of the Marlin 795 LTR's? They come equipped with Tech Sights! The only change I'd make to the LTR is to replace the sling with a 1-1/4" cotton web sling. I found the 1" nylon sling that comes with the rifle to twist where the loop is formed making it hard to properly adjust the loop.
Quote from: Minutemom on November 20, 2013, 12:21:29 PM
Fisherdawg, thank you so much for your in-depth analysis of my position! I'm hoping I have time tonight to get down into position and test myself in the manner that you and douglas34474 suggest. As you both said, that will be the test!
TJ, you have every right to brag. I totally would if I could shoot that score with iron sights! I would like to give it another try. My problem was that I couldn't distinguish the individual targets on the redcoat. It looked like a red blob-line, LOL. My shoot boss's response was "welcome to middle age," he,he,he. That was my first Appleseed, though, and now that I kind of know what I'm doing, I would like to try again. I was using the factory sights on my Ruger 10/22 last time, so I would really like to try out a peep-hole type sight, which is what my shoot boss recommended if I wanted to stick with iron sights. Maybe that would help.
I have already registered for my 5th Appleseed in January, and I can't wait ..:..
I wish I could do it every weekend! I can't wait until I am confident enough with my shooting to become an instructor. IMO there need to be more female instructors. I would be so proud to join the other orange hats on the line :)
Chris,
When I say "iron sights" I mean only aperture sights like Tech Sights or M1 Garand sights. I can't hit a thing with 10/22 factory sights because with any eyeglass prescription that allows me to focus clearly on the front sight post, I can't see rear notch at all. This is not a problem with peep sights because the eye naturally centers front sight in the peep no matter how blurry the peep. The small aperture also helps sharpen the focus on front sight -- optical effect . In short, if I were you I wouldn't spend much time on factory sights. They don't provide repeatable adjustments either. Just my (much more than) 2 cents worth!
I've really enjoyed the coaching on your position. It forces me to think clearly about it and then communicate it clearly. When you see a shooter improve because of it ... well you should take that Orange Hat and enjoy it yourself. You are right that we need more female instructors -- lots more! ;D And lots more male instructors too -- because we got a country to save. :cool2:
Regards,
fisherdawg
One other thing that might help ... pink vet wrap and a pink sling ... at least they helped my daughter. I'll have to snap a pic to post. Now that she's earned her rifleman rating, she's talking about adding jewels to the stock!
After all, a rifleman not only shoots good, they also look good doing it.
It sounds like Tech Sights are definitely in my future. TJ, I have thought about the Marlin 795, and I'm very tempted, especially since I try to bring a new shooter along with me to every Appleseed. It would be great to have an extra rifle to lend out. I'm bringing my sister, dad, and brother with me to the next one :) Or I could just modify my husband's Ruger 10/22 since he doesn't really ever use it. I would probably spend almost as much money doing that, though. Now, I want to know just where your daughter found a pink sling!!!! Um, pictures are definitely in order here. (Read: I want one!!!!!!) When I bought my rifle, I almost bought one with a pink wood stock, but my hubby gave me an emphatic NO. !@#) I am in complete agreement that you have to LOOK good while shooting like a girl, LOL.
fisherdawg, I appreciate your coaching more than you will ever know! Thank you for doing your part to save our country! Like I said earlier, Appleseed people are the best people in the world!
Quote from: TJ Kackowski on November 20, 2013, 01:49:18 PM
One other thing that might help ... pink vet wrap and a pink sling ... at least they helped my daughter. I'll have to snap a pic to post. Now that she's earned her rifleman rating, she's talking about adding jewels to the stock!
After all, a rifleman not only shoots good, they also look good doing it.
Pink Vet Wrap..... We have got to get that for the line in Alaska.
As they say, "Shoot Like a Girl, If You Can" ;D
Minutemom, if you're going to the Gainesville shoot I'll be there with a scoped 10-22 and one set up with tech-sights you are welcome to use.
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 03:57:43 PM
Minutemom, if you're going to the Gainesville shoot I'll be there with a scoped 10-22 and one set up with tech-sights you are welcome to use.
Are you kidding? I would love to try it, once I shoot rifleman score, LOL. I'm so determined to shoot score with my rifle, which in my opinion has a very stiff trigger pull, causing me to wobble the gun as I'm squeezing the trigger. I know this is my fault and not the trigger's fault ;D. The rifle I used to shoot score had an awesome trigger job. I'm getting much better in keeping the muzzle still while squeezing the trigger in my dry fire practice.
Have I met you at one of the Appleseed events in Gainesville before? I seem to remember there was an instructor named Doug at one of them (I think the first one). My first Appleseed was in November 2012 - I was there with my whiney 10 year old son. I've been to every one in Gainesville since then. It will be great to see you again, or meet you, whichever the case may be!
Chris
I would have been the old dude in need of a hair cut and shave. ;D
If you want to use a trigger group with a 3# pull, it only takes about two minutes to change them out. We will get you set up. O0
Quote from: douglas34474 on November 20, 2013, 04:33:02 PM
If you want to use a trigger group with a 3# pull, it only takes about two minutes to change them out. We will get you set up. O0
OK, I'm intrigued and may need to do this ;D
I used Smoak's rifle to shoot score. I think you may have actually done his trigger. I think I remember him or Bruce telling me about this awesome dude Doug who does this. Could that be you?
That's me. If you used either Smoke's or Bruce's rifle both have been worked on my your truly. So it's nothing to just drop your TG and replace it with one of mine and it's your rifle only with a trigger job. :~
Awesome!! You've convinced me to do it!
Quote from: Minutemom on November 20, 2013, 12:21:29 PM
~
I can't wait until I am confident enough with my shooting to become an instructor. IMO there need to be more female instructors. I would be so proud to join the other orange hats on the line :)
I've followed this thread from the beginning, to learn from the superb coaching provided. During the evolution of the discussion, I have been impressed with your perseverance and determination. There is no doubt in my mind that not only will you become an instructor, you will be an outstanding instructor.
Minutemom,
I had all of the same reservations that you have about taking on the orange hat. I may have been even less experienced than you already are with 4 AS' under your belt. You've got the bug and show the passion. I hope that you'll be offered and will accept it at your next AS! You have what it takes.
Best wishes,
Bluesteel
O.K. here's my daughter's rig ...
It's a 10/22 compact with a Simmons 22 Mag AO scope, Kidd parts that cost just slightly more than the rifle (but makes the action smooth as silk and the trigger break like glass and everything else work very nicely for a left handed shooter). The sling was made by dear 'ol dad using cotton webbing (and webbing metal tip) from mamashecrazy.com and the hardware from a GI web sling. Pink ears and eyes of course. We have 2 clear mags that we're planning to dye pink, but haven't got that done yet.
RRP and Bluesteel, thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. They mean a lot to me!
TJ, holy smokes! Your daughter's rifle would be the envy of any self-respectin' girl shooter on the line, LOL! I think it's so sweet that you took the time and effort to actually make her a sling O0 One of my daughters is turning 6 next week, and she will be receiving her very first rifle. She loves to get down on the floor with me when I'm doing my dry fire and ask me all kinds of questions about what I'm doing. She knows the 4 safety rules by heart, and always asks me when she will be old enough to learn how to shoot. I may have to look into the pink sling ;D
Last night I got into postion, closed my eyes, relaxed, opened my eyes, and all looked well. I shifted position to get on target, closed my eyes again, relaxed, opened my eyes. Still on target, crosshairs moving up and down in a vertical line as I breathed, and squeezed the trigger. Muzzle stayed steady, called the shot, which was good! I was using the bottom row of the modified AQT (supposed to be at 25 feet, but I've been using it at more like 40 feet), so I feel really confident about being able to hit those targets! Now I just need to work on the time monkey! I'm anxious to get outside and shoot some actual rounds to see how I do!
Thank you so much everyone!!!! I feel like my support arm problem has been solved. I couldn't have figured this out without all of your insightful suggestions and coaching! I am forever grateful!
A million thanks,
Chris
Quote from: fisherdawg on November 20, 2013, 03:20:55 PM
Pink Vet Wrap..... We have got to get that for the line in Alaska.
Here ya go:
http://www.amazon.com/Dynarex-Sensi-Rainbow-Color-Inches/dp/B005NHB4B4
I buy this stuff in bulk from Amazon. Cheap, functional, and lots of fun colors.
I had a few minutes this morning to run out back and shoot a group. Obviously I need to adjust my scope settings, but....... ^:)^ ^:)^
Outstanding Chris! This stuff works! ;)
VERY well done. O0 You will have no problems earning your patch.
Makes you feel really good when you get it all worked out doesn't it? 1 moa left, up 2 and and you can't get much better!
Outstanding group! You will earn that rifleman patch in no time.
Quote from: Minutemom on November 23, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
I had a few minutes this morning to run out back and shoot a group. Obviously I need to adjust my scope settings, but....... ^:)^ ^:)^
Get an AQT and make some copies of the stage 4 targets. Then zero and practice on them. If you do so, you will like the results.
Mike
Quote from: Minutemom on November 23, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
I had a few minutes this morning to run out back and shoot a group. Obviously I need to adjust my scope settings, but....... ^:)^ ^:)^
Chris,
:bow: :bow: :bow: ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ..:.. ..:.. ..:.. **) **) **) ;D ;D ;D
That's too cool! This is a 2 MOA group on the horizontal. 1 MOA on the vertical.
You've got it.
Congratulations,
fisherdawg
Thank you guys!
Bluesteel, you're right! This stuff really DOES work!
Douglas, it really does feel good! I know this is as much as a mental game as physical, and I was totally focused. I shot a few more groups yesterday, and they weren't as good, but I felt like my mental focus was off.
TJ, thanks for your encouragement! I hope so!
jmdavis, thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely do that, as well as practice my transitions.
fisherdawg, thank you!!!!
I will continue my dry fire practicing as often as I can!
Minutemom-
Congratulations on those groups- it is obvious that much dry-fire practice has been involved, and that you and your body are now well acquainted with the prone position. If you are interested in continuing your Riflemans PT, I humbly suggest that you consider following the 'advanced dry fire' routine, as I have described in the http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=34387.msg254085#msg254085 (http://rwva%20newsletter%20from%20april,%202013).
Happy dry firing!
-ItsanSKS
Quote from: ItsanSKS on November 25, 2013, 09:41:23 PM
Minutemom-
Congratulations on those groups- it is obvious that much dry-fire practice has been involved, and that you and your body are now well acquainted with the prone position. If you are interested in continuing your Riflemans PT, I humbly suggest that you consider following the 'advanced dry fire' routine, as I have described in the http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=34387.msg254085#msg254085 (http://rwva%20newsletter%20from%20april,%202013).
Happy dry firing!
-ItsanSKS
++1
Thank you ItsanSKS for the link! I will be using this extensively in my dry fire practice leading up to the January Appleseed! I hope everyone had an awesome Thanksgiving.
I am so humbled and very proud to join the ranks!
Well, good to have you aboard.
This is an interesting thread, lots of good info here, lots of good questions asked.
Congratulations on getting everything sorted out, and thanks for joining in to help.
For those that helped and gave advice, well done.
Thanks Nickle! I couldn't have done it without the help from this wonderful Appleseed community. Thank you everyone!!! This is your victory as much as mine!
Three huzzahs for Minutemom! And thanks for stepping up to wear the hat. I am sure you will be a great instructor.
Now we just need fifty million more like you.
WOW! Nicely done Minutemom! And thanks for stepping up.
UL
congrats and welcome to the team! very nice stage 4 there!
Excellent shooting, Minutemom. Thanks for stepping up to take a hat so you can pass what you learned on to others. ..:..
ShadowMan
Outstanding! Welcome to the cadre!
Thank you everyone! I'm honored to be part of such an amazing group of people.
Chris
Congratualtion in steping up to an Orange hat. I knew that you could do it. I had hoped to be at the Gainesville Shoot but a family commitment prevented it.
O0 O0 O0
Terry
HUZZAH HUZZAH HUZZAH!!!!!!!
Welcome aboard! and you were worried about that silly little time monkey!
Great Job!
Quote from: theri on January 08, 2014, 03:05:02 PM
Chris
Congratualtion in steping up to an Orange hat. I knew that you could do it. I had hoped to be at the Gainesville Shoot but a family commitment prevented it.
O0 O0 O0
Terry
Terry! Thank you so much! I was thinking of you when I shot a rifleman's score on the first AQT on Saturday. It made me think of a cold February day almost a year ago when you guided me to my very first rifleman score, and then a second, and third! I've been working so hard over the past year to be able to achieve that again, this time with my own rifle. I now feel confident that I can reproduce those results reliably, as long as I keep up my dry fire practice. I hope to see you at another shoot, this time as a fellow instructor! I still have so much to learn...
Quote from: Stand on January 11, 2014, 02:26:49 AM
HUZZAH HUZZAH HUZZAH!!!!!!!
Welcome aboard! and you were worried about that silly little time monkey!
Great Job!
Thank you Stand! LOL, I couldn't believe I still had so much time left on phases 2 and 3! Traditionally it has been a huge challenge for me to get all of my shots off before time is called. Amazing how dry fire can make such a difference in enabling you to quickly find your NPOA!
Quote from: Minutemom on January 06, 2014, 09:41:41 AM
I am so humbled and very proud to join the ranks!
Way to go Chris!
I'm proud to have you on board.
I was in St. Augustine last week as Dad passed away. I hope next visit, May or June maybe, to have some time to get to G'ville.
fisherdawg
Thank you fisherdawg! I am so sorry about your Dad. I hope you do make it over this way - I would love to meet you in person!
Chris