Some of the stuff doesn't "click" for me. Their description of NPOA is incomplete and makes me wonder if the author understood it. The claim about recoil with M16's causing issues with trigger squeeze makes me wonder as well. They are reducing the range required to qualify (based on the last few years in Iraq). However, they are also adding magazine changes, use of barricades and and malfunction clearing problems.
Check it out.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/05/army_marksmanship_050408w/
Yep, doesn't sound like the author understands NPOA. Does look like an improvement in training for reality in the field though. While talking to the local Army Guard Training NCO, he stated the rifle training was changing, having to teach kneeling positions now and at 45 he was having a hard time getting into those positions and I'm thinking I've got 15 yrs on him! Anyway......
He invited me out to present Appleseed to the local troops at their training session next week. - stated would give me all the time I needed. ;D What a deal!! That linked article gives me some insight for my presentation too.
usaf, go for it! What an opportunity!
BTW, once these guys are trained for close-up urban Iraq, will they have to be retrained when they deploy to Afghanistan?
Quoteintended to teach soldiers a crucial lesson learned from the battlefield that it often takes more than one shot to "kill a target," Haskins said.
"Sometimes you have to shoot a guy two or three times before he dies," he said.
And then, there's the ".223" factor - I first remember this in
Blackhawk Down [the book], but also there's an instance in
We Were Soldiers Once, and Young [the book] in which a GI empties an M16 mag into the chest of an NVA to stop him...
Ummm... Now I really have no room to talk about combat or shooting in general because I am not fighting for my country or have attended an appleseed (yet), but it should not be necessary to shoot someone more than once to put them out of the fight.
In my personal opinion I think that the military needs a new rifle. As for the marksmanship I think that all of the Cold War materials shouldn't be tossed just because we are fighting terrorists now instead of commies.
However I like the the jam clearing problems and using barricades. Cool article and I agree that the author probably doesn't get NPOA like usafe7ret said.
For what it's worth, one of my fellow instructors taught a handgun instructor class 3 weeks ago. One of the students is a former Marine, who has 3 sons who are all in the Corps. He told my friend that one of the boys in Iraq was issued an AR-10, a "new and improved" model with forward assist. He said it looked like an M4 on steroids.
Hearsay, but encouraging if true.
SOCOM has adopted the 7.62 version and is issuing them.
USAF-this is great! push it as hard as you can to all of the units you can reach. I think we should have an all out push on all fronts in all states, contacting guard and reserve units in each state and asking them to let us provide a weekend course for their Soldiers and Marines.
I am going to post this as another thread asking people to do this. ;)
Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone as this is the same Army that was teaching combat to troops by using video games.
I've been through some pretty good firearms training "simulators" and the Air Force course of fire I shot a couple times a year for qualification already incorporated the positions mentioned in the new Army course. I did Army training too, fired the Army pop-up ranges, lots of CQB, all that stuff taught by both Airmen and Soldiers so I've actually been through some pretty good (according to the military) training.
I learned to be a better shooter in the first four hours of an Appleseed than I did in my 6+ years of military service.
And I know all you Misguided Children out there are saying, "you wouldn't have said that if you would've been in the Corps" and you could be right. But, would you rather go back to Parris Island for a few weeks... or spend the weekend at an Appleseed?
I read an article a few weeks ago stating the Marines had instituted a new training protocol; 'Hunter Combat',,,prompted by the fact that soldiers in Iraq were spooked after the battle in Faluja because the enemy seemed to be stalking individuals and popping them at ranges under a hundred yards.
When it is stated that recruits are troubled by the recoil of the 5.56,,,I would correlate that with this new training procedure,,, the military came to the realization that most of these 'kids' hadn't any field expierience, that is to say hiking cross country, or 'hunting', let alone shooting. They had never been in the woods at night. Lierally, city slickers & suburbanites. The recoil of an 5.56 is negligible to an expierieneced shooter, but couple that w/ an appreciable muzzle blast and you have spooked a new shooter. They had been taught to shoot & qualifyin the military, but calling the shot, as a hunter does, or an 'AppleSeeder, wasn't in the mix.
Now a new training regimen, to include woodsmen, trackers, pro-hunters have been brought in to teach the arts of the predator; read sign, pick the target, stalk within sure killing range.
The article I read was in one of the mainline hunting/fishing mags,,,but a quick search turned this up :
http://www.marines.mil/units/marforcom/iimef/26thmeu/Pages/EveryMarineaHunterSupportMarinestakeCombatHunterCourse.aspx
The AR10 is being called up,,,at least this version,,,:
http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,146717,00.htm
I like it.
Boy, that writer really didn't grasp marksmanship. I'm not so sure the CPT fully grasped some it as well.
Changing to a 200 meter zero is good. Currently we use a 300 meter zero, then qualify out to 300 meters. The smart troops zero a couple of clicks low to compensate.
We currently do foxhole supported, prone unsupported and kneeling unsupported. Some of the troops use the magazine as a rest, something I DON'T do, and don't recommend. I've simply taught them to use the sling, like we do with Appleseed, and watch them get far better support.
The trigger pull issue with the M16 series (A2 and A4) is the burst device. 3 different trigger pulls, depending on where on the device you are. The M4A1 is Full Auto, not Burst, and doesn't have this problem, same pull EVERY time. Add the natural tendency to remove your finger from the trigger each shot (we see that at Appleseeds) and there's your problem.
Having them shoot the same target 2 or 3 times is smart. The pop-up range is kill or not. Well, reality says sometimes we just wound the target, and that wounded target still shoots back. Even with a 7.62 NATO you are still going to wound. So, it's not just a ".223 thing".
After all, we all shoot some 3's and 4's, don't we?
The use of the AR-10 is new this year. The Army went from the M24 (Rem 700) to the M110 (Knight AR-10) for the sniper rifle. I'll assume Designated Marksmen are going to be getting it as well, although the unit I belong to, DM's get an ACOG for their M4A1.
Yup, another flaw in that article. The Army is going away from the M16A2 and M16A4 to the M4A1, unit by unit, combat arms units first.
One of our new troops (a 4 foot something female) used an M4A1 at Boot Camp to qualify, and when it came time to qualify with the M16A2 (with add ons, like a forward mounted Aimpoint) this summer, it was too muzzle heavy for her. I fixed that with a nylon USGI sling, and gave it to her to keep. She's a believer now in the hasty sling, and can hold up that rifle easily, even with an extra ten pounds or so down force on the muzzle. I bet she even uses it with her new M4A1 ( we switched a few days after AT, when the M4's came in).
And the bottom line? The Army went to teaching troops to think and know how something works, instead of memorizing procedures long ago in certain fields, like equipment maintenance. I'm surprised it took this long for them to get around to doing the same with common tasks, like marksmanship.
Quote from: usafe7ret on August 08, 2008, 12:18:26 AM
He invited me out to present Appleseed to the local troops at their training session next week. - stated would give me all the time I needed. ;D What a deal!! That linked article gives me some insight for my presentation too.
Good job, and something we all need to do more, including myself. Slow but sure, some of them will get it.
As to Slim's comments on the Marines, take the word of a Marine Marksmanship Instructor. He came to observe the Harvard, MA Appleseed on April 19th, and he was impressed. He told me it's essentially the SAME stuff they taught in the Corps, at a faster pace. We teach in 2 days what they teach in 1 or 2 weeks.
I'll throw in my .02... As a cold war soldier, 1974-1986, I remember the foxholes and the unsupported prone in BCT and yearly qualifications. I was a freelance (read untrained) shooter before the army but able to score 'Xpert' on the pop ups. At MP school the focus was the 1911 and that too was a piece of cake. Heck, Sam's training had evolved to a two hand grip by then. By 1991 as a police officer and friearms instructor I was introduced to Jeff Cooper's (RIP), Modern Technique of the Pistol. My eyes were begining to open. With this came follow on training/situations/and experiences. One basic truth is there are varying skill sets of shooting. Shooters shoot for different reasons as well. A parent may take their offspring out for recreation, a line police officer learns how to shoot for defense cause the crook get to go first, and the soldier primarily shoots in an offensive manner and in a team environment with multiple tangos.My education has defined these skill sets as Pure Marksmanship and Combat Marksmanship. PMshp is the building block to CMshp The PMen, my be regulated by time and self induced stress but on the otherhand the stress level is not like someone trying to kill you. PMen focus on applying all the fundamentals and group size. Once the fundamentals are attained, triaining can progress to more practical scenarios. A CMen shifts gears and realizes that threats must be dealt with immediately with little concern for the size of the group. Stop the threat before they can injure you. Shoot until the threat stops being a threat. With this comes the identification of your strategic objective and what tactics you will use to achieve that objective. Let's just say that in the Warriors path, lies another world beyond shooting groups.What the army seems to be doing is way overdue and a shift in mindset. Get the soldier thinking...bravo! To know how something works is great but to know why it works that way and how to keep it working fosters cognition, problem solving and decision making. Golly, it might even spawn some common sense.We will continue to debate issues, tactics, equipment, bullet size ect, it is in our nature. But first and foremost mastery of fundamental skill is the essence of it all. Even in the ninja world of advanced firearms training, it just boils down to doing the fundamentals faster.This is one reason I fell for Appleseed. In over 30 years of formal firearms training NO ONE has broken it down to such a degree as Appleseed. The art of shooting combined with the physical science of mastering your position, rifle, ammunition, range to target, sight clicks and bringing it all together is rewarding. Nothing like banging the gong at 500m to have a good day.Nuff said, best to all, Sheepdog
Well said Sheepdog.
I just hope the Army and other military units approach the "new" training as you said, "PMshp is the building block to CMshp."
Quote from: Fred on August 08, 2008, 12:28:29 AM
And then, there's the ".223" factor - I first remember this in Blackhawk Down [the book], but also there's an instance in We Were Soldiers Once, and Young [the book] in which a GI empties an M16 mag into the chest of an NVA to stop him...
The FMJ 5.56 factor. I have seen a relatively recent autopsy report of a dead BG being hit with several Hornady TAP rounds which did not perform well either. FMJ .mil rounds rely on fragmentation to kill. If your target is "skinny", there is not enough depth for that to happen. If I am going to use a .223 for defense, it will be with the same rounds I hunt animals with. Soft point expanding hunting rounds.
I would like to point out that the Marines still get two weeks of mainly
fire training simular to Appleseed's, but much more intensive. That training
that is spoken of is in addition to those two weeks, most likely individual or
advanced combat training that follows the 13 weeks of boot camp. Even
though either much improved or maybe not the prolonged dampness found
in southeast asia, the .223 and platform is felt on the weak side. Most
favor the glass sights, and mostly feel the 9mm in it's FMJ is lacking. Addit-
ional training in firearms with MOS of rifleman, usually spends a combined
training of six months, or near that, with 13 weeks boot and a month each
of advanced and indivdual combat. Even many years ago, the pop up target
exercises came after boot. Each Marine in order to graduate from boot must
qualify a minimum of Rifleman. Also each year thereafter, there is a qualificat-
iom shoot is held both with a rifle and any additional TO weapon. ;D
I find it almost comical when folks compare cartridges and ballistics, penetrating power, etc. to "combat effectiveness." Sure, there's something to be said for all of that, but I saw a 10-year-old hitting 4MOA this weekend with a .30 Carbine.
I'm not going to sit here and argue that the Carbine is better than the '06 or how heavy the grain needs to be or if he would've done better with an AR or anything like that. Nope. Not going to do it.
Not within the Rifleman's quarter mile, anyway! I won't argue with you because that kid's "combat effectiveness" is good enough to get the job done regardless of which caliber he's shooting or how much powder his rounds are loaded with or anything else because the most important part of any round or caliber, any weapons system is not it's ballistics or penetrating power, but it's ability to hit the target effectively.
Regardless of which platform you advocate for "combat effectiveness" there's an underlying necessity for it's success - ability of the operator to hit their intended target. Keep in mind, no matter what the target is hit with, if it's placed within that 4MOA zone, it's going to be rendered "combat ineffective."
Quote from: fepowered on September 03, 2008, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Fred on August 08, 2008, 12:28:29 AM
And then, there's the ".223" factor - I first remember this in Blackhawk Down [the book], but also there's an instance in We Were Soldiers Once, and Young [the book] in which a GI empties an M16 mag into the chest of an NVA to stop him...
The FMJ 5.56 factor. I have seen a relatively recent autopsy report of a dead BG being hit with several Hornady TAP rounds which did not perform well either. FMJ .mil rounds rely on fragmentation to kill. If your target is "skinny", there is not enough depth for that to happen. If I am going to use a .223 for defense, it will be with the same rounds I hunt animals with. Soft point expanding hunting rounds.
A few weeks back I had the occasion to fire up a skunk with my RR AR. He was at the bottom of my pasture in daylight, and decided to charge after me. I emptied all but four rounds (of a 30 rd mag) into him, with at least 15 hits within 20 yards, rapid fire. The meat chunks and red mist was flying off of him as he was running at me. Finally, he dropped. I got close to look at him and noticed he had been dragging his guts!
I had FMJ (M855, 62 gn) loaded in my weapon. I decided that the M855 was a good idea for that car load of thugs who might drive up and starting shooting my house, but not good for the possibly rabid critters roaming around my home. I will be using 60 grn Hornady TAP for that purpose now, as I have used it on feral cats with awesome effect.
I've hit coyotes with .223 FMJ at my place and they did a summersault flip and kept right on running. I use Hornady Vmax 55 grain rounds now. The Vmax is pretty much the same at the TAP-FPD of the same weight. The 75 grain is more suited to the 1 in 7 twist of the the newer AR's and some of the old mini-14's but it pricey stuff for shooting varmints.
Come on guys. Thats the US Military issue rifle cartridge you're talking about there. Won't reliably put down a four legged varmint? **)
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. The less power your projectile is carrying, the more important shot placement becomes.
For what it's worth (before someone accuses me of making fun of the AR and the 5.56) I used the cartridge for several years groundhog hunting and never had to shoot one twice (all head shots but one so even though they were expanding bullets I don't think it would have mattered). And I've got more than one AR type rifle and like them within the scope of their intended use.
Moving skunks and coyotes might be more effectively engaged with a good shotgun.
Quote from: Old Dog on December 25, 2008, 08:27:59 PM
Come on guys. Thats the US Military issue rifle cartridge you're talking about there. Won't reliably put down a four legged varmint? **)
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. The less power your projectile is carrying, the more important shot placement becomes.
For what it's worth (before someone accuses me of making fun of the AR and the 5.56) I used the cartridge for several years groundhog hunting and never had to shoot one twice (all head shots but one so even though they were expanding bullets I don't think it would have mattered). And I've got more than one AR type rifle and like them within the scope of their intended use.
Moving skunks and coyotes might be more effectively engaged with a good shotgun.
I'm still working on the point of aim for those 350 yard coyote shots with a shotgun. **) :~ The garden hose arc trajectory of the shot has me a bit flumoxed. ;D The 5.56 does some of the least amount of pelt damage but lately I have given up on the pelts and gone to the Remington 7mm Magnum and a 139 grain SST bullet. The 5.56 FMJ and the shotgun is on full time drive by shooter duty now. &)
Folks, Appleseed teaches you how to accurately hit with what you bring/have. Caliber and bullet construction is is unimportant to the Appleseed mission. We dont teach for the purpose of engaging and incapacitating living breathing targets. If things ever come to that we have failed miserably at the Applesed mission of awakening Americans.
As for the original intent of this thread, the Army's new marksmanship programs are steps in the right direction at training the way they actually fight. The Army has many different shooting programs that are trying to address the different scenarios and roles addressed by the ever changing face of warfare. No one program or qualification can address everything or make one a expert. What do they all have in common though? They all require the basics of marksmanship, the same 6 steps that Appleseed effectively teaches.
As a graduate of a few of the Army's top shooting schools, I have yet to find a program that teaches the principles of marksmanship as well as Appleseed. Appleseed will teach you how to accurately fire a rifle from the standing, sitting, and prone positions without using a rest or without special equipment. It doesnt matter what bullet construction you have, what rifle you use, M1A, AR, Garand, or 10/22. With these basics down and mastered you can apply those same fundamentals and 6 steps to other disciplines, activities, or professions.
I would love to teach the Appleseed course to every recruit in the military. It would set them up for success in every shooting endeavor they could ever experience, both in training and God forbid if they ever have to use it in actual combat.
Not trying to start an arguement here, just stating some beliefs.
1. I think any small game hunter who brings their .22 rimfire to an Appleseed will leave better able to put more meat on the table with less rounds. Money spent at an Appleseed equals more fun in the woods for less money and greater results.
2. Any deer hunter who brings their deer rifle as their secondary gun (for Day 2 or the long range portion of the Appleseed if the range is set up for it) will benefit for the very same reasons.
3. Anyone who goes to an Appleseed and learns from it will be better able to defend their family, and themselves, from any type of threatening incident, whether it be a rabid dog, a wayward mountain line, criminals threatening life and limb, in times of natural disaster where the usual 911 call is either impossible or the responders are overwhelmed.
I think the folks who fit into 1 and 2 above are missing out on some great training and skill building that would really benefit them several months out of the year. That 1" square at 25 meters is MOSH (minute of squirrel head). If you can head shoot squirrels (is there any better place to shoot them?) then rabbits are no problem.
Just my two pennies.
What we, the Army NCO's, found out the hard way in the early days of the GWOT is that there are damn few foxholes in on the 360 degree battlefield. We also found that if you drop into the Prone in the middle of the street in Baghdad, things go really bad really fast. So, along with the theory that you fall to the highest level of training while under stress, we realized that we were trained and were continuing to train, Soldiers to fight from a foxhole or the prone. Great solid positions but not the best in all situations.
So, using "lessons learned" we are adding things like walls, windows, Kneeling, the Isosoles(feet shoulder width apart, shoulders squared with target, knees bent near 70 degrees 60-70% of bodyweight leaning forward) and standing. Of course, everyone has some sort of optic and additional gizmos and gadgets.
What we lost years ago were basic Rifleman skills and the confidence that goes with it. We lost MOA, slings, NPOA, leading targets and basic skills like that.
That is where Appleseed becomes the fix. In army terms it is " Basic Rifle Marksmanship using advanced techniques"
Using Appleseed I coach, teach and mentor my Soldiers on Basic Marksmanship(the Crawl phase), introduce advanced knowledge(MOA, range estimation) and fire at 25 meters( Walk phase) and certify all these things at known distance under near combat conditions( Run phase)
Now, I have found that the current level of gear worn by Soldiers will cost you about 10-15 points on an AQT. Train as you would fight.
Quote from: boltgun71 on December 25, 2008, 08:39:20 PM
As a graduate of a few of the Army's top shooting schools, I have yet to find a program that teaches the principles of marksmanship as well as Appleseed. Appleseed will teach you how to accurately fire a rifle from the standing, sitting, and prone positions without using a rest or without special equipment.
I would love to teach the Appleseed course to every recruit in the military. It would set them up for success in every shooting endeavor they could ever experience, both in training and God forbid if they ever have to use it in actual combat.
As was mentioned a few posts back, the Corps has been doing this in boot camp out to 500M forever..... 8)
Quote from: Tackleberry on December 25, 2008, 02:13:12 PM
A few weeks back I had the occasion to fire up a skunk with my RR AR. He was at the bottom of my pasture in daylight, and decided to charge after me. I emptied all but four rounds (of a 30 rd mag) into him, with at least 15 hits within 20 yards, rapid fire. The meat chunks and red mist was flying off of him as he was running at me. Finally, he dropped. I got close to look at him and noticed he had been dragging his guts!
It sounds like you emptied a magazine at him, not into him... You can't miss fast enough to kill a skunk :)...
Quote from: fepowered on December 25, 2008, 11:43:29 PM
Quote from: Tackleberry on December 25, 2008, 02:13:12 PM
A few weeks back I had the occasion to fire up a skunk with my RR AR. He was at the bottom of my pasture in daylight, and decided to charge after me. I emptied all but four rounds (of a 30 rd mag) into him, with at least 15 hits within 20 yards, rapid fire. The meat chunks and red mist was flying off of him as he was running at me. Finally, he dropped. I got close to look at him and noticed he had been dragging his guts!
It sounds like you emptied a magazine at him, not into him... You can't miss fast enough to kill a skunk :)...
I hit him fast enough with around 15 rounds, the very first round being a well aimed center-mass hit. The point wasn't my stress-fire shooting skills, it was the effectiveness of the M855 FMJ round. Last year (or was it the the before???), I took a feral cat at around 275 yards with the first shot using a 60 grn TAP round.
We have a problem with rabbid-acting skunks in our area running around in broad daylight chasing people around. I hit one a few months ago with my G21, using 230 grn Golden Sabre...which worked well. :)
Hmmm.....
We are starting to have terminal thread drift here.
Reference this post.....
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1660.0
....and....
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3755.0
....then be sure what you have to say is relevent to the first post, which should be the overall guide to what is in a thread
Thanks Guy, I think this thread has run it's course. We have gone from one thing we cannot do anything about, to shooting skunks. Not that I have anything against shooting skunks. ;) Just that it does not push the program and we need to try our best to do that with each post.
Quote from: Scout on December 26, 2008, 02:19:09 PM
Thanks Guy, I think this thread has run it's course. We have gone from one thing we cannot do anything about, to shooting skunks. Not that I have anything against shooting skunks. ;) Just that it does not push the program and we need to try our best to do that with each post.
My appologies. In my attempt to support another poster's opinion of the poor terminal ballistics of the .223 FMJ (.223/5.56 factor) on flesh, I went way off course with my skunk killing exploits. :-[
I would however, like to point out the importance of knowing terminal ballististics in addition to exterior ballistics.
The services actually began updating their marksmanship programs in 1991, after experiences in the desert convinced them the then current programs didn't do enough. Simulator training began as they recruited folks more familiar with gameboys and simulator combat, as well as to save money. Out at FT Bliss there was some grousing but the import didn't impact them until a maintenance company couldn't defend itself. After the initial CharlieFoxtrots of Afghanistan and Iraq, there was an effort to provide some better training. There is still much debate about calibers, rifles etc, but the bottom line was supposed to be marksmanship. Turned out, at least here, that most of the units are given sighting in time on a short range, then familiarization live fire, before going thru the village scenarios.
Someohow, they weren't getting the message, and to a degree, in my observation, still aren't. It doesn't matter if it's a .22LR or a .223, or .308, or .50BMG- you have to practice and become accustomed to the rifle. If you can make the requisite head and center of mass hits at the Rifleman's Quarter Mile, it will give you time to adjust for re-fires on the ones still incoming. And of course, there's always Fire Support! ::) Just in case there are more than your basic load can care for.
Quote from: Tackleberry on December 26, 2008, 06:21:19 PM
I would however, like to point out the importance of knowing terminal ballististics in addition to exterior ballistics.
And I would like to point out that ballistics don't mean squat if you can't shoot 4 MOA consistently.
Most military units in the field are now designating at least one "marksman" that provides accurate fire for various reasons. The thing that still gets me about the whole program is they're equipping their Designated Marksmen with a "special" rifle (which isn't really all that special when you consider how accurate an A2 is) and giving him an extra two weeks or so of training.
If they would invest all that extra money into sending their units to Appleseed, their whole unit would be designated as Marksmen and they could use their "not-so-special" standard-issue rifles.
Once again, I'll take this opportunity to say if you encounter military personnel, BEG THEM to come to an Appleseed because it could save their life. And you can sell it with, "we'll teach you to outshoot your SDM!"
well you take what ..aka.USCAV DID FOR HIS MEN..and I think oneday at the B4 school some BLACKHAT going to say "where you get those skills kid?"..And that rockhard DM screams out proudly """appleseed training ......Sir...APPLESEED""....HOOOAZAAAHHHHH........But things are a changing slim belive me ..Fort Benning has a few looking at us ..I knew keepin my CEOI cheat sheet would pay off oneday..hint hint.. "G2, G3 "
from one old harmony chruch grad... @@)
oldgrunt, the powers that be in the upper echelons of the Army are looking over the program currently.
They aren't looking us over as close, or as quickly as I'd like them to, but, they are at least looking.
Some units are using the program, my Guard unit is one, and I think it's about to spread to the whole battalion. My CSM was impressed enough when he came to zero his M4 this fall, that he took notice of the program and what it teaches. I was running that zero range, and ran a min-Appleseed type PMI talk before they zeroed. My unit got about an hour or two of PMI (hey, time gets tight for us) the day before, and the results were telling.
Now, that doesn't sound like much, but when an FSC (Forward Support Company) (mostly truck drivers, mechanics and cooks) is teaching an Infantry Battalion how to shoot, that's something.
The article was very encouraging. I dunno if that CPT knew shooting that well or not but the reporter is just that and they have a habit of destroying what they get from people quote wise unless they record it.
It sounds like the Army is heading in the right direction. Maybe not perfect but a definite improvement. The Vietnam and later era of Army marksmanship instruction was horrible. It will take quite a few years to get things fixed as well. Remember that there are few "shooting schools" in the army. Most soldiers get instruction only from their NCOs that may or may not know what they are doing. Those NCOs all came of age in the era of the cold war program.
Appleseed can fix them if they can be convinced that they are not God's gift to marksmanship (a general American affliction, especially among military service members). The only way to fix it is to get them on the new course of fire and have them get embarassed. I knew I would learn a lot at Appleseed but that first round of redcoats humbled me and got me focused on learning.
Quote from: slim on December 28, 2008, 11:53:43 PM
Quote from: Tackleberry on December 26, 2008, 06:21:19 PM
I would however, like to point out the importance of knowing terminal ballististics in addition to exterior ballistics.
And I would like to point out that ballistics don't mean squat if you can't shoot 4 MOA consistently.
Actually, I have gotten a 1.79" group with that same rifle at 100 yards; that is less than 2 MOA (well under 4 MOA). Yet, that same M855 round would have the same termainal ballistics with a little less velocity.
You are right to invite military folks to the Appleseed. The BRM program was less than stellar when I was in the Army . The pistol program was even worse.
While I have not yet been to an Appleseed, I do think it is a good deal from what I have read. It is good to get the public trained on basic rifle skills! I would also think that in addition to exterior ballistics, it would be prudent to cover terminal ballistics. After all, you can shoot the equivelant of 4 MOA all day long with a BB gun and still not do much to a 'target'....
Yup, this one's drifted about as far as it can go. Appleseed anyone? :)
Quote from: Junior Birdman on December 29, 2008, 03:49:20 PM
Yup, this one's drifted about as far as it can go. Appleseed anyone? :)
O0
Now, you're
talking.
Quote from: Nickle on December 29, 2008, 10:54:40 AM
but when an FSC (Forward Support Company) (mostly truck drivers, mechanics and cooks) is teaching an Infantry Battalion how to shoot, that's something.
Proof.
Quote from: AdamSelene on December 29, 2008, 11:50:33 AM
Appleseed can fix them if they can be convinced that they are not God's gift to marksmanship (a general American affliction, especially among military service members). The only way to fix it is to get them on the new course of fire and have them get embarassed. I knew I would learn a lot at Appleseed but that first round of redcoats humbled me and got me focused on learning.
I shot the M-16A2 quite a bit in the USAF. Took me a few tries, but eventually, I got the coveted "Marksmanship Expert" medal and I remember being so proud of how great a shooter I was. I was never God's gift to marksmanship, but I was so much better than most of my fellow service members and WAY better than any civilian hunters or paintballers, or, of course, the air rifle shooters could ever dream of being. I was an "expert." I could shoot. I was good.
I thank God that I never had to use my "marksmanship skills" in combat because looking back, I was a relatively poor shot, especially compared to what I'm capable of now.
And you know the weird thing about it? Back then, I was awesome and great, really good at what I did, ready for the war! But now, now that I know well what I'm about, now that I really can shoot great and awesome, I realize that it's not how well you can shoot, it's how well those around you can shoot.
There's a saying, "I don't have to outrun the bear.... I just have to outrun you." Well, if there's more than one bear, what's it matter if you can outrun your buddy?
Quote from: slim on December 30, 2008, 05:53:55 AM
I shot the M-16A2 quite a bit in the USAF. Took me a few tries, but eventually, I got the coveted "Marksmanship Expert" medal and I remember being so proud of how great a shooter I was.
What was/is the AF course of fire?
It is interesting that the AF had an official Marksmanship team for about 10 years from the 50s to the 60s and even had member earn a silver medal at the 1964 Olympics. An article from the 80s mentioned that AF instructors were/are called "Red Hats" because they wear a red baseball with the words Combat Arms on it to designate them as an instructor.
It just occured to me why the military's shooting program probably isn't so hot, which is due to the frequency in which our troops qualify (or did qualify). I can remember the standard being one time a year for RA. I don't know about reserve or guard, but a one time qualification with no practice in between is down right outrageous.
There was no standing off-hand! There was no sitting or kneeling!
There was only fox-hole supported and prone unsupported (ONCE A YEAR).....
Tackleberry, I remember that.
I also remember that in the 51 weeks between when we qualified each winter (we always did it the winter for some reason) there were only two guys in the platoon who put our own time and money towards improving our skills. Two out of almost fifty.
The Army isn't completely as fault. While I really looked forward to the opportunity to put some live rounds through my M14 I still felt I was responsible for making practice opportunities in between those once per year qualifications. The Army can't force someone to fire expert. Folks/soldiers have to WANT to fire expert. It takes time and effort and desire to learn to shoot well.
Appleseed can't force folks to learn to shoot rifleman scores. They have to WANT to fire rifleman scores. They have to put out the time and effort and have the desire to make it happen.
The folks here should have that desire (otherwise, why be here??). The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?
Quote from: Nickle on August 08, 2008, 09:26:12 AM
As to Slim's comments on the Marines, take the word of a Marine Marksmanship Instructor. He came to observe the Harvard, MA Appleseed on April 19th, and he was impressed. He told me it's essentially the SAME stuff they taught in the Corps, at a faster pace. We teach in 2 days what they teach in 1 or 2 weeks.
It is obvious that Appleseed teaches solid doctrine which has been proven in the Corps for many decades. The goal of a 2 day Appleseed is to get every participant motivated even if they do not qualify. If the Corps, everyone MUST qualify at least to Marksman level by the end of that week or 2. Every Marine is a Rifleman. Qualification day is rain or shine, calm or blustery wind. 500 yards when the weather is crap is definitely a test of what you have been instructed.
I guarantee that there are many of my fellow jarheads who have forgotten and not bothered to keep up what they have learned. Having earned a rifle badge once and then putting it away in a drawer only to take out once a year to go to the Marine Corps Ball is pitiful. I do know that there are a metric buttload of USMC veterans out there just waiting to be coaxed into joining us at a shoot and many excellent candidates for future IITs.
Quote from: Old Dog on December 30, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
Appleseed can't force folks to learn to shoot rifleman scores. They have to WANT to fire rifleman scores. They have to put out the time and effort and have the desire to make it happen.
The folks here should have that desire (otherwise, why be here??). The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?
Not only can't we force people to shoot Rifleman, it is not even remotely reasonable to expect that everyone or even most will be able to do so after 2 days of instruction and shooting.
If we do nothing else, our most basic accomplishment needs to be to pass the desire to do so on to everyone who we meet...
Quote from: Old Dog on December 30, 2008, 11:55:57 AM
The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?
BY EXAMPLE!!!!!!!!
AF CATM (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance - AFSC 3P0X1B) are, in fact, called "Red Hats." And yes, they do wear red hats. There was actually some beef when some of them were forced to wear the berets now worn by most other "cops" (3P0X1, A, B) in the AF. They didn't want to give up their distinctive red caps. Most are now authorized to wear their red hats with their uniforms.
The qualification course for the AF was (unknown if it's still current but with the transition to M-4, probably somewhat different) with M-16A2 at 25M
10 shots Standing "over-barricade" position
10 shots Kneeling "around barricade"
10 shots Prone unsupported
10 shots Prone supported (sandbag)
Qualification was something like 21 out of 40 and Expert was 35 out of 40. The target is composed of silhouettes representing distances out to 300M and was fired in timed stages with the higher positions being fired at the bigger targets. Not unlike what we do during the AQT.
One good thing about the AF is they're now making folks shoot with their gas masks on. Heck, we even shot at night sometimes. Not everyone does that and some troops only shoot twice in their entire career but for the most part, those who are likely to be deployed to an AOR where they may have to carry a rifle are trained pretty well on that rifle. But, they're not trained on proper sling use. They're not trained on proper NPOA shifts.... and they're not trained on all that before lunch time!
Plain and simple, one Appleseed would teach more to these troops than several years of "average" AF training.
Quote from: Tackleberry on December 25, 2008, 02:13:12 PM
Quote from: fepowered on September 03, 2008, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Fred on August 08, 2008, 12:28:29 AM
And then, there's the ".223" factor - I first remember this in Blackhawk Down [the book], but also there's an instance in We Were Soldiers Once, and Young [the book] in which a GI empties an M16 mag into the chest of an NVA to stop him...
The FMJ 5.56 factor. I have seen a relatively recent autopsy report of a dead BG being hit with several Hornady TAP rounds which did not perform well either. FMJ .mil rounds rely on fragmentation to kill. If your target is "skinny", there is not enough depth for that to happen. If I am going to use a .223 for defense, it will be with the same rounds I hunt animals with. Soft point expanding hunting rounds.
A few weeks back I had the occasion to fire up a skunk with my RR AR. He was at the bottom of my pasture in daylight, and decided to charge after me. I emptied all but four rounds (of a 30 rd mag) into him, with at least 15 hits within 20 yards, rapid fire. The meat chunks and red mist was flying off of him as he was running at me. Finally, he dropped. I got close to look at him and noticed he had been dragging his guts!
I had FMJ (M855, 62 gn) loaded in my weapon. I decided that the M855 was a good idea for that car load of thugs who might drive up and starting shooting my house, but not good for the possibly rabid critters roaming around my home. I will be using 60 grn Hornady TAP for that purpose now, as I have used it on feral cats with awesome effect.
As a former paramedic, I have seen people remain awake and alert for 30-60 seconds with no heartbeat! I know of a case where two LAPD officers put 11 rounds of .38 special (+P I believe) into a suspect and he still covered 50ft and buried a fire ax in one of their shoulders before dying. People are not hard to kill - but at times they are hard to stop
The bottom line is this: A fatal wound - with any weapon - may leave the bad guy with quite a bit of useful consciousness. If he is highly motivated and/or on drugs of some kind nothing short of a central nervous system hit is going to stop them in their tracks. Shot placement is more important than the size of the round. I would much rather hit someone in the brain or spine with a 5.56 or 9mm than in the gut or even lungs with a 7.62 or .45.
When I was in basic training (US Army Infantry) back in 2001 we were told that the 5.56mm that we used today (well in 2001) was to WOUND an enemy with most shots. Sounds stupid I know, but think of it this way. In CONVENTIONAL warfare (aka pre-war on terror days) it made more sense. If you wound 1 enemy solider you take out 3+ from the fight. His buddies and/or medics to carry him away, the logistics to support him while he recovers, ect... But on the "new" battlefield we aren't fighting a conventional military anymore.
On a side note, the original design of the M16 and it's 5.56mm round did kill, it just wasn't as "accurate" as the rifle/bullet combination it was replacing. But to meet the accuracy standards set at that time, which were still for the M14, they had to change the twist rate of the barrel. This led to the bullet becoming more stable, and less likely to tumble when it hit the target. Thereby reducing lethality. This lead to the adoption of a heavier bullet to increase lethality. That led to... Well you get the point...
Quote from: Reginmund on June 23, 2009, 07:37:45 PM
When I was in basic training (US Army Infantry) back in 2001 we were told that the 5.56mm that we used today (well in 2001) was to WOUND an enemy with most shots. Sounds stupid I know, but think of it this way. In CONVENTIONAL warfare (aka pre-war on terror days) it made more sense. If you wound 1 enemy solider you take out 3+ from the fight. His buddies and/or medics to carry him away, the logistics to support him while he recovers, ect... But on the "new" battlefield we aren't fighting a conventional military anymore.
On a side note, the original design of the M16 and it's 5.56mm round did kill, it just wasn't as "accurate" as the rifle/bullet combination it was replacing. But to meet the accuracy standards set at that time, which were still for the M14, they had to change the twist rate of the barrel. This led to the bullet becoming more stable, and less likely to tumble when it hit the target. Thereby reducing lethality. This lead to the adoption of a heavier bullet to increase lethality. That led to... Well you get the point...
Don't believe everything the Army told you in basic training... <:) The 5.56 is and was always intended to kill. The 5.56 was never intended to tumble. The current heavier bullet was implemented to penetrate cover. Even the current 5.56 relies on fragmentation to kill. The bullet enters, yaws and fragments. When the velocity is lower at longer ranges, fragmentation is not as assured and this can lower the effectiveness of the fmj 5.56 round.
This thread has drifted terribly off course and has gone outside of anything Appleseed related. We can take a stroll over to ar15.com if we want to continue the lethality conversation. There are literally hundreds of pages of threads discussing such things. Here all we are concerned about is making Riflemen with at a minimum a rack grade rifle and surplus ammunition of any grain.... O0
fepowered has the straight dope on this .
Let's get teh buckets out and bail.
BTW: you can bail better to the sound of Scout on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/AppleseedRadio
Sam
Yup, and Scout is on right now.
We've gone to the point of leaving SOMSOM on this, so don't make me break out the lock.
During Nam the USAF marksmanship was pretty bleak during Basic but then they were running us though in four to six weeks depending on the year. Seems it was 50 rounds total with 10 Standing no sling, 15 Kneeling, and the rest prone no support. This of course was modified in advanced training depending on your job from either no further training for Techies to fairly intensive for AP and SF. I was able to weasel some extra range time for a Base Marksmanship Match that was all offhand, that was fun got to shoot all I wanted.
Pretty sure they changed this system since several situations in Nam showed it was woefully lacking.
Army was much better, Yeah I was in both...don't ask..., at least everyone had to qualify once a year.
Food on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF. ::)
Quote from: Rhodes on June 23, 2009, 10:23:37 PMFood on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF. ::)
I'll take food at an Appleseed any day over food in the USAF!
Quote from: slim on June 24, 2009, 06:12:06 AM
Quote from: Rhodes on June 23, 2009, 10:23:37 PMFood on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF. ::)
I'll take food at an Appleseed any day over food in the USAF!
Well it was really good food no idea what its like now....the Army stuff had some odd side effects if you know what I mean. AS is much more fun than either and food just isnt as important at 53 as it was at 20.
Well, I see a good hint wasn't enough to get folks working, and it's now digressed to talking baout food.
It started out good, and Old Dog made some great points, as did others, but it's no longer on that topic.
Folks, this isn't a chat forum, it's a work forum.
I'm locking it.
All because it morphed from a legit Appleseed discussion, into a discussion on various subjects, including which branch has the best food, the killing power of the 5.56 round and other non-Appleseed issues.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=150.0 (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=150.0)
This is a working forum, for the advancement of Project Appleseed, not a chat forum for other topics. There are other places to visit for non-Appleseed discussions.
And, if you've got extra time to kill, Funfaler and I have some jobs for you and some buckets to bail with. Just ask.