Due to a personality trait of mine I've missed my opportunity to build a couple of Winchester M1 Garands so I decided to build something else - an AR type varmint/target rifle.
I figured I might as well keep a lits of costs and sources along with problems and fixes.
AR15 receiver (DPMS) - $140 - cost + taxes + background check (gunshow yesterday)
AR15 adjustable stock, 6 position - $60 (Midway)
AR15 lower receiver parts kit (DPMS) - $47 (on sale at Midway)
Hopefully the parts fit will be trouble free since they come from the same place that made the lower receiver.
The idea is to make a nice little groundhog/coyote/crow rifle for use with pretty much standard .223 bullet weights (the long heavy bullets arent' needed for this rifles intended use).
More once the parts get here and I start to put them together. I've ordered everything (I think) to complete the lower receiver. Will decide on barrel length/type later. Definitely want a free float style handguard to eliminate sling/bipod pressure from the barrel.
I want a flat top upper receiver as it will have a scope on it (already have a good scope for it) but may by some of those detachable front and rear sights for it as well.
Why not an M1A? Money. For what it costs for an average quality M1A receiver I can buy most of what I need for the AR. A second reason is a .308 is not in ideal varmint cartridge and the .223 is pretty darn good for that. Small fast bullets that fragment on most any target will pretty much eliminate a richochet and that's not true for the .308 bullets.
Not trying to start a "funny" on AR's here. I know from experience that the .223 is great for paper and varmints. The AR has a reputation for excellent accuracy and that's important for what I intend to use the rifle for. The bullets are cheaper than .308 bullets, it uses less powder and it recoils less (not that we'll have any 50 to 100 round days in the farm fields in central Virginia).
At some point (just like converting a store bought 10/22 to an LTR) folks may be interested in building themselves and AR (start buying the parts now!!)
The AR has a lot going for it. Accuracy, abundent parts and suppliers, low recoil, 22.cal conversions and more.
I'm not crazy about them, but the thought of building my own rifle is very tempting.
For Californian's, we face a unique challange. A lot of answers to CA-legal ARs can be found at http://www.calguns.net
To the members of that forum; thanks for supporting Appleseed!
M1A,
A2 stock is superior for your app. Also a heavy stainless "varminter" barrel config would be good - with 1:9 twist. 24 to 26" length squeezes every drop of energy out of the .556 round and the twist will stabilize most any round. I would recommend 68g HP match rounds on 4895 powder. With a quality barrel, this should afford you sub MOA performance. Just a thought.
PH
Yeah, I was looking at that twist in the 24" length. Still thinking about whether or not a fluted barrel is worth the extra bucks. Probably will go with stainless steel for the barrel, too.
Will probably stay with the adjustable stock (the CAR has one and it's growing on me) as this things alter ego will be a 16" barreled A4 type upper for non groundhog, coyote, crow use.
I'm too cheap to pay that kind of bucks for bullets. I actually had great success many years ago with the teeny little 45 gr. varmint bullets in my M700 Rem. (high velocity, awesome damage, good enough groups to hit groundhogs in the head out to 225 yds.) It has a 1 in 12 twist barrel though. We'll see.
Thanks for the input.
I used to shoot a .223 Rem in IBS Heavy Varmint class when I was a teenager. Rem 722, Douglas premium chrome-moly barrel (med weight), Fajen stock, Lyman 20X Supertargetspot scope. 13 lbs, 4 oz.
I used 53 gr Sierra's, then 52 gr Sierra Boattails, when they became available.
The optimum twist for these bullets will be about 1-14", with 1-15" doable.
Accuracy was about 1/4-3/8 MOA, and the rifle was nothing spectacular. Remember, this would be the late 1960's.
Get plenty of 20 round and 30 round mags... before they're banned.
It's probably been mentioned in other threads, but to repeat, 44mag.com has great prices on AR magazines and also the CMI M14 magazines.
Gromit
The DPMS lower from a gunshow.
The DPMS lower parts kit from Midway.
The 6 position adjustable butt stock from Miday (it needs to fit multiple shooters).
The upper group is from Blackthorne.
The scope is a used 2.5X10 Simmons with a 50 mm objective lens (lots of light in).
The rings are garbage - new steel rings on order.
Rail on order for the bottom of the free float tube for the sling thing and a bipod.
Once I get the attachments installed I think I'll probably camo the whole thing (except the scope) in case them there varmints have sharp eyes.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn298/zsrbest/IMG00052.jpg)
cant wait to see a range report of the blackthorne upper.
Dead sexy! Now all u need is a gooder trigger and the right load.
Got it degreased and painted today. Just need to get to a range or a field for some sight in.
Damn you do a nice camo job. I'd like to here any tips you have on the subject. May be more appropriate for PM though.
ARs can be excellent and VERY accurate rifles. I have a Cali legal AR with a 24" Douglas stainless 1 in 8" bull barrel and it will shoot 10 shot groups under 3/4" at 100 yards if I watch the wind (read: wind flags with a rest). If I were to do it again, I would pony up a little more for a Hart or Krieger barrel, but I really shouldn't complain.
It pings steel at 600 (308 clangs steel at 600) with boring repetitiveness with the Sierra 69gr or 77gr MatchKings. There is a HUGE difference in accuracy with mil-spec bullets compared to match type bullets. For what you are talking about I would use the 52gr or 53gr Sierras and just wince when you buy a thousand or two, and enjoy it every time you pull the trigger.
I know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit. Not that I dont like my AR-10t, but I shoot the AR-15 much better, and it is more accurate.
M1A4ME - please do tell your camo secrets. That looks great
Moderator, correct me if I'm wrong. I will voluntarily report this message as soon as it posts to the forum.
Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AMI know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit.
AS teaches marksmanship and does not "lean toward" any rifle or caliber.
AS teaches hitting the target, rather than leaving a big hole in the air!
Where did the belief that AS "leans toward 308s" originate?
This needs to be nipped in the bud!
EDIT: This program just told me that I can't report myself to the moderator (it even told me that it didn't make sense!), so I will have to find another way to ensure that I have not misrepresented the program's intentions. I can't report myself? What kind of silliness is that?
Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AM
I know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit.
Appleseed does not focus on pinpoint accuracy or large calibers. You are encouraged to come shoot with whatever caliber you have. The mission is to be able to shoot 4MOA out to 500 yards. This is service rifle with surplus ammo accuracy not varminter accuracy.
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score. .25MOA from the bench is far less critical than 4MOA off-hand, sitting and prone.....
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.
I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.
I've got a highly accurate AR. It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.
I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.
It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).
Quote from: M1A4ME on March 31, 2008, 07:40:10 PM
.......I decided to build something else - an AR type varmint/target rifle.
I figured I might as well keep a lits of costs and sources along with problems and fixes.
.......
Hopefully the parts fit will be trouble free since they come from the same place that made the lower receiver.
The idea is to make a nice little groundhog/coyote/crow rifle for use with pretty much standard .223 bullet weights (the long heavy bullets arent' needed for this rifles intended use).
More once the parts get here and I start to put them together. I've ordered everything (I think) to complete the lower receiver. Will decide on barrel length/type later. Definitely want a free float style handguard to eliminate sling/bipod pressure from the barrel.
I want a flat top upper receiver as it will have a scope on it (already have a good scope for it) but may by some of those detachable front and rear sights for it as well.
You should have no issues with your misc parts fitting. I would recommend a RRA trigger. They seem to be the best value for a nice 2 stage trigger. If you do a build with a Weaver style gas block, you can put a front and rear sight on it and make it a dual purpose rifle. I left the A2 sight style gas block on mine and it does not obstruct my field of vision through my scope. I also stuck with a A2 stock as I do not like the cheek weld with the standard collapsible stocks. IT may not bother you from the bench, but it makes a difference in the field and shooting a AQT.
Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 20, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.
I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.
I've got a highly accurate AR. It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.
I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.
It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).
If you need a .25MOA rifle to shoot 4MOA, you are doing something wrong. ;) We should be making sure that those new to Appleseed get the message that it isn't about shooting the highest score, but shooting Rifleman consistently and teaching others to do the same.....
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on September 20, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: fepowered on September 20, 2008, 10:55:51 AM
Building and shooting precision ARs is definitely a fun hobby, but they will not help you shoot a Rifleman's score.
I think they'll help, but they're not necessary.
I've got a highly accurate AR. It's a joy to shoot and I've had my highest scores with it.
I also have an SKS that'll get you Rifleman scores as well.
It's more about the nut behind the butt (fundamentals).
If you need a .25MOA rifle to shoot 4MOA, you are doing something wrong. ;) We should be making sure that those new to Appleseed get the message that it isn't about shooting the highest score, but shooting Rifleman consistently and teaching others to do the same.....
Agreed.
Sorry if I sounded snippy last night.
I'm not going to try and make any lame excuses.
No worries!
Here at Appleseed, we have no egos or toes, so you can't upset or step on them ;) ;D
Quote from: crashkid2k on September 20, 2008, 04:39:22 AM
Moderator, correct me if I'm wrong. I will voluntarily report this message as soon as it posts to the forum.
Quote from: MrBill on September 20, 2008, 02:29:51 AMI know AS leans toward 308s but I think a rifle that lets you hit EXACTLY what you want to hit is better than a big hole in the air near what you want to hit.
AS teaches marksmanship and does not "lean toward" any rifle or caliber.
AS teaches hitting the target, rather than leaving a big hole in the air!
Where did the belief that AS "leans toward 308s" originate?
This needs to be nipped in the bud!
EDIT: This program just told me that I can't report myself to the moderator (it even told me that it didn't make sense!), so I will have to find another way to ensure that I have not misrepresented the program's intentions. I can't report myself? What kind of silliness is that?
Those gongs on the KD range sure laughed at me 75grn BTHPs. The Garands rang them but my 556 did next to nothing. I could see lead powder on impact but they didnt budge. That has nothing to do with AS, just a observation I made at bootcamp.
Woooah! I didn't mean to touch off a sensitive nerve here. I meant my comments about myself, and my inability to shoot my M1A to save my life. I am pretty comfey with my AR, and the AR format fits me. I am probably a little larger than average (OK a lot larger in diameter than average) and my body and the M1A don't mix well. Certainly many people can and do shoot the heck out of them. I also don't shoot my AR10t anywhere as well as I do my AR-15. Maybe I've become a recoil Nancy boy.
I also thought this thread had digressed into varmint style ARs as that is what the pictures are.
Hey I'm recovering benchrest competitor and a gear geek to boot. For me the accuracy thing is about confidence. The day before shooting Rifleman, I went to the range with - dare I say it - a rest. I tried a couple of different brand 22 ammo, and decided to use one that was both accurate and had no failures to fire. One of the 5 shot groups I shot at 25m was 0.080. Certainly not good enough for benchrest but pretty good for a 10/22 variant. I pasted that on my ammo can to go to AS to remind me it is the nut behind the butt, and that I had NO excuse for not making Rifleman. Worked for me. Your results may vary.
I do want to learn to shoot my AR10 better, and actually be able to hit something with an M1A. Remember it is a journey, not a destination.
Cheers
In the interest of helping you maintain your mental balance, I'll take that M1A off of your hands. Since confidence is a big part of shooting, it only stands to reason that, having the thought of that rifle lurking in your subconcious will be detrimental to your scores. Just trying to be helpful :D.
Aren't we a generous bunch?
Spatulaman didn't even let 2 hours elapse before he offered to help save MrBill's "mental balance"! I'm getting a little choked up... :) :D
I haven't found any rhyme or reason behind individual AR/M1 preferences, and I've been watching for age, sex, body type, handedness, etc. A tall, thin female lefty loves the AR on one end of the line, while a short, heavy male righty loves the M1 on the other end. You might see the exact opposite next week! It's unpredictable at best.
MrBill has it right; it's a journey. The Rifleman score is merely a signpost on that journey.
MrBill has it right again; the accuracy thing is about confidence. Pick up any given rifle, shoot a sighter, adjust your sights and start shooting. You should be shooting 4 MOA.
That's confidence in the rifleman, not the rifle.
crash
Sorry if we're way off topic; I'll take the blame. Yes, I understand that my pay will be cut as a result...
Hey,
I was contemplating an AR build myself, and was wondering:
How did that Blackthorne upper perform?
Any info or suggestions would be apreciated.
Thank you,
Aftermath
Haven't shot it since June. First trip to the range it functioned fine for a few rounds, then began some failures to feed after ejecting. Manually chambering every round for a few then turned into failures to eject. This turned into putting it back in the case.
It was plenty wet with oil, more didn't help. When I tore it down I found the screws that hold the bolt carrier key backing out. Have not shot it since. Too many issues got in the way of getting it back to the range since then.
The groups at the time were fired with some reloads and some Winchester factory 55 gn. FMJ rounds. They were not impressive. Have made a couple of changes since then (fixed A2 buttstock and different scope mount so I could get a good cheek weld) but have not shot it.
Some rifles are picky about what they shoot well while others seem to shoot a lot of different loads well. The verdict is still out on this one. Sorry.
Quote from: SGTCap on May 09, 2008, 10:37:13 PM
cant wait to see a range report of the blackthorne upper.
Blackthorne is Hesse/Vulcan
My son really wants to get an AR. Does it make sense to build it yourself, or buy one from a reputable company?
Colycat
Quote from: colycat on November 16, 2008, 11:35:55 PM
My son really wants to get an AR. Does it make sense to build it yourself, or buy one from a reputable company?
It really depends on the deal you can find when you are looking...
Right now, you should be able to build one for a reasonable price... I am a fan of complete uppers and then building the lower myself. I like to use 2 stage triggers and ergo grips. I don't see the point in paying for standard stuff and then trying to sell it when I replace it with what I really want.
A complete Bushmaster should be around $900 and then the cost of customizing it..
Right now, AIM surplus has flat top mid length carbine uppers with pinned A2 style gas block/front sights for $525 and $.01 shipping. $525.01 to your front door!!! Armalite complete uppers start at $500 plus shipping from Armalite, but they may be out of stock.
This is a high quality upper at a good price. These won't last long... All you have to do is pick up a removable carry handle and you are set for an Appleseed. Bare lowers are around $113.96 shipped from AIM right now and the last RRA 2 stage trigger I got was $75.
Building the lower portion of the AR is fun and easy. I did it in about 30 minutes with a hammer, screwdriver, and an old dart (used as a punch). There is a pretty good 2-part video on youtube that details how to do the whole thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_Vkb2UB1w
QuoteBlackthorne is Hesse/Vulcan
I've heard those names before. >:( Thanks for the heads-up.
I must say I did have my suspicions, but I couldn't find the link.
M1A4ME; I hope you can get that rifle servicable, you may want to install a bayonet lug. :( ;)
The biggest reason I would like to build; as opposed to buy; is that it's a good way to get to
know your rifle, inside and out.
Any other recomendations or suggestions would be much appreciated, thank you.
Aftermath
http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm
I now own two "black rifles." One is an RRA NM and preforms as expected. Shooting 75gr HPBT I shot my highest score ever at my last HP match.
The second is a work still in progress. The lower unit is an LRB receiver with a RRA NM trigger. The upper is a flat top with a 16" HB 1/9 twist. Here is where I ran into problems. I found that even with the HB using a sling caused the groups to vertically sting. I test the rifle on two different occasions in the prone supported position. I talked about the problem with a friend that shoots ARs in the Perry matches and he agreed that it doesn't matter how heavy the barrel is that will be the result if a free float tube is not used. This was also confirmed by a gunsmith who works on Ars exclusively. So I am having a free float installed and will have back in a few days. I chose not to do it myself 'cause I didn't want to buy the tools to do one rifle.
Some of you may take exception to my experience but I can only tell you what happened to me.
I have the front sling swivel mounted to the free float tube on the vARmint rifle.
The CAR has not front sling swivel, just a vertical grip mounted to the handguard ( ;D ;D Sgt. Cap ;D ;D)
The S&W AR has the front sling swivel mounted to the barrel but I haven't shot it enough to say one way or the other.
Quote from: colycat on November 16, 2008, 11:35:55 PM
My son really wants to get an AR. Does it make sense to build it yourself, or buy one from a reputable company?
Colycat
The reason I ask the question, is he not into building rifles. He wants something that will chamber a round every time, and be able to group to battle rifle standards.
I have been to a few Appleseeds, and I see a lot of AR's that do not work. Most often they are built from parts. I have never seen a M1 not work and only 1 M1A that had problems.
If he were to buy parts and things did not work out as expected(see M1forme's post) who would he call and complain. Seems to me if you buy a rifle from, say Bushmaster, and it does not perform, there is some recourse. I don't know much about AR's.
Thanks for your help, Guys
Coly
Buying a complete rifle sounds like a reasonable idea.
I've built 2, one of them I rebuilt again later.
Only problems I've had was the choice I made for a detachable carry handle on the last build. It was too tall, and I've either got to replace ot, or get a taller front sight. Replace is the likely route, due to personal preference.
If you use new quality parts, it is not likely to be a problem.
If you use junky parts, well, "garbage in, garbage out". The same folks that do cheap builds, tend to get cheap when it's time to buy ammo, too.
All that being said, you can't go wrong with a Bushmaster.
To me, building it teaches you an intimate knowlege of the rifle. If you can understand how it works, internally, you can use it better, and diagnose problems better. Granted this is coming from an engineer, so I might have a different mindset than others.
Seriously, did you look at those videos I linked to above? It is pretty easy to assemble a lower. Uppers are more easily purchased due to the fact that it can ship directly to you. I might recommend buying a complete upper, instead of assembling an upper, because the upper does require a special tool.
Prior to getting anything - I would recommend a little light reading.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=240052&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=10614
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showpage?saleitemid=559952&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=10614
Then, get all of the correct tools, including the correct vise blocks for the style of AR you intend to build - Bushmaster sells it all and is all good quality.
Just a thought.
The only special tool I (had but couldn't find) for the lower was the wrench to install/tighten the nut on the collapsable stock/buffer tube to the lower receiver. Being both practical and impatient I hand tightened it then used a punch and hammer to finish tightening it. I know which of the little slots in the nut has a flat spot in it but the camo job completely "camoflaged" it. My pocket knife works great for that nasty little spring and detent in the frame for the front take down pin.
I've never "built" an upper. As stated above. They'll internet/phone call/ship those right to your front door and the only question asked is how you want to pay for it.
Did have some issues on my second build. The bolt catch detent was large enough, or the hole was small enough that the detent hung up in the hole. I had to get a drill bit and slowly drill (at the right spot) a hole in the frame above the rear of the detent to get it to "pop" back out. A little work with a round file around the wall of the hole cured the sticking problem and everything went back together and works great.
Improvise, adapt, overcome. It's not just for Marines.
The words above about the best way to learn the parts and their relationship to each other is buy building is true. You lay all those little pieces out side by side, you get the lower in your hand and your start trying parts (this pertains to the springs and detents more than anything else) and you put it together. If you get the wrong spring, or wrong detent in the wrong place it won't work right.
It sure beats putting a puzzle together. ;D
I wish building M1A's was as easy and as cheap. I'd have a couple more of those.
Two of my M1's (H&R) were bought as barreled receivers from the CMP. The parts were bought off the internet and at gunshows here and there and put together by me. I bought H&R parts and so have H&R M1's. The only not so nice parts on them are the stocks. No way I can justify (did I mention how cheap I am??) spending $300 or more on a nice looking H&R stock so I bought some well used ones and refinished them without taking all the gouges and nicks out so as to preserve some of the character and the inspector's marks on the stock.
Guns are Fun. Yep, you heard it here.
Reliability was my biggest concern, as well - I went with a Fulton Armory complete lower for that reason. I'm glad I ordered it when I did - just visited their site and I see their prices on complete lowers have increased 30% in the last 3 months. One of the biggest selling points for me was that my lower included a trigger job and assembly by professionals - for a total cost of about $80- over parts alone. I topped it with a Velocity Arms dedicated .22 upper and an ersatz Aimpont M3 - looking forward to February's Appleseed in Davilla - alas, January's dates conflict with drill.
Unfortunately I waited too long, now not only have prices shot up, I can't seem to find anybody that has anything in stock.
Anybody got some hot tips.?
use a Rock River Arms lower parts kit if you can. I've used both the RRA and DPMS LPK's and the pins in the RRA kit are nicer. The DPMS pins fit REAL tight, as in once you get them started you are committed. Had I known in advance I would have dressed them down with some sandpaper and a drill.
The DPMS disconnector also required a lot of fitting to work properly, RRA was a drop in. Both LPK's will work, I just like the RRA kit better. Enough that I'm willing to spend the extra $10 to get it.
Just doing some number crunching, buying an upper or build. Is the point to build for the fun or to save money? If it is to save money, I am defiantly not looking in the right places. I have been looking for a light 308 upper.
Redwolf, the point for me was to get exactly what I wanted, not what was available. When the thread was started AR parts were both cheaper and more plentiful.
Quote from: Redwolf on December 30, 2008, 07:16:35 PM
Just doing some number crunching, buying an upper or build. Is the point to build for the fun or to save money? If it is to save money, I am defiantly not looking in the right places. I have been looking for a light 308 upper.
Redwolf -
MY objective is to get acquainted with the inner workings of the black rifle. Using online materials and books (Clint McKee?) available from CMP to get started on my first build. Having scanned prices (SGN is good source for price info) for some time, I know I won't save $$ by building my own, but I will know more about its innards. (Just as I recently learned the inner workings of my 10/22 LTR.)
I have seen the cautions about the fragile nature of the ears on the lower. Go slowly, and polish pins for a nice press (not force) fit, if necessary. You don't want to use excessive force here.
FB
That sounds like as good a reason to me. I might be behind the times but do we have the numbers to look for discounts or group buys. I have been looking to start a carbine upper. 16" 308 carbine Barrel and upper receiver.
Quote from: FiremanBillMY objective is to get acquainted with the inner workings of the black rifle.
Quote from: Redwolf on December 31, 2008, 02:21:54 PM
That sounds like as good a reason to me. I might be behind the times but do we have the numbers to look for discounts or group buys. I have been looking to start a carbine upper. 16" 308 carbine Barrel and upper receiver.
Redwolf,
I'd be interested in a group buy. Personally looking for .223/5/56 upper with heavy 20" min. barrel. Noted that several SGN advertisers offer complete uppers. With respect to lowers, am willing to work my way through installing a kit on my stripped lower.
If you want to kick off a group buy effort, maybe I can help. I have seen info here and there on this site about pros and cons of various component suppliers. We can probably do a site search and find appropriate threads... (Or we can just ask, and I'm sure the advice will come flowing in.)
Let's go! Sooner we can start, the sooner you and I can get together and shoot!
FiremanBill
Im in if you can find any parts in stock and can get a deal.
Kodo2003
Good luck on this - prices on parts by the manufacturers with good reputations have gone through the ceiling, in anticipation of a new Assault Rifle Ban, as stated in the Democratic Part Platform. My plan is to buy several assembled lowers with this paycheck and next, and complete them with uppers as time allows. I also plan to buy an AR-10 lower with the same intent. YMMMV.
Although the last assault rifle ban stated that rifles must be complete by the date of enactment of the ban, I'm willing to take my chances that history will repeat itself. In fact, I expect that things will swing toward us after awhile - though we may have to endure another round of bans first. Keep the Faith!
The chances of getting someone to commit to a group by will be slim, as parts are flying off the shelfs faster than they can stock them.
There's no incentive to provide any discount.
But, if it happens, let me know.
If one wanted to build an inexpensive, but serviceable .308 version AR is there any knowledge base as to where to purchase and what to buy?
I've never considered the AR in .308 caliber. I'll bet if you go to AR15.com there's a lot of info on rifles and parts in that caliber.
Good luck with your search.
Anyone have any thoughts, strong feelings about Armalite AR-15 components, and assemblies? Am considering them along with Rock River and Bushmaster.
How about Model 1 Sales? Have been scanning their SGN ads, prices look pretty good on parts too. Any experience with them?
FiremanBill
I like the Rock River match triggers, they are just awesome.
If you're looking at 308/7.62 AR's a few things to check:
Mags can be pricy and do not neccesarily interchange between mfgr's (DPMS and Stoner SR25 are the same but don't fit anything else). I've been told that Olympic uses FN mags but don't know this for a fact. Not sure if Armalite fits anything else.
My DPMS AP4 is reliable and accurate, but has been finicky with some 7.62 ammo. It's got a tight 308 chamber and won't reliably feed Privi. All other stuff i've tried has been ok.
As noted on other posts, right now all AR parts can be scarce - 308 even more so. I've been waiting over a month for some misc spare parts from DPMS.
If you get a complete rifle, you can always take it apart & put it back together a few times to see how it works.
Hope this helps
G
Rock River 308 uses a FAL mag. I believe it will accept both metric and inch mags. They are under $10 and they are everywhere. Rock river makes good stuff. Haven't seen anything bad about their stuff. I concur on their match trigger ;D
EEL
If there is still anyone looking for AR-15 lowers http://www.essentialarms.com/ has them in stock and to your FFL in 7-10 days. I called 01/13/09 to get the price and info. They are $100 for the standard lower and $105 for the tuff coat baked on finish. It is hard to get through on the phone be persistent. I have their lowers they are great. There are many positive threads on AR15.com also.
Also http://www.sherluk.com/ has all the other parts in stock at good prices. I have 2 of their kits both fit well and seem to be of good quality and shoot good tight groups. For Christmas I received a new upper and there was a problem with it. I called them and was told to send it back and it would be replaced and back to me in a week. They seem to have good customer service. They also do a lot of gun shows in NY and Ohio that I know of. And if you do not see a kit that you want call then and ask. They will work with you.
Kodo
Quote from: EEL on January 02, 2009, 11:29:26 PM
Rock River 308 uses a FAL mag. I believe it will accept both metric and inch mags. They are under $10 and they are everywhere. Rock river makes good stuff. Haven't seen anything bad about their stuff. I concur on their match trigger ;D
EEL
Rock River is having a lot of issues with that FAL mag, that is part of the reason for the looooooonnnnngggg delivery time of their .308. They're still working on orders placed in 2007.
Don't get me wrong I love Rock River's stuff, have their AR's & 1911's, just don't get a good feeling about their 308. Rather than wait I picked up a PTR-91, mags are $2 each for it.
Don't get me started. :'(
AR's are for 5.56 caliber bullets and M1As (or M1's) are for 30 caliber bullets. You guys are gonna get me confused if you keep crossing them up. ;D
I do my best to stay away from anything that is so new its only been out there for 2 or 3 years. Way too many problems with new designs that are not thoroughly tested prior to release to the public for use.
Another serious note, a 5.56X45 AR can make use of one of the conversion kits to shoot cheap and plentiful .22 rimfire ammo for much of the practice, another good reason to stick with that caliber. This is not meant to start a caliber war here, just to say there are some advantages to the 5.56 versions of this design.
The spare parts are also cheaper and easier to get. $10 magazines? Yep, just got ten 30 round mags. in the mail the other day for $109 (ordered awhile back).
On another note. I put this thing together, shot it once at the range, the initial groups were 2 ft. high at 25 meters (lucky to have a scope with lots of adjustment to it), the bolt began to disassemble itself in the first 20 rounds and I had to stop shooting till I figured out why I was having to manually work every round into and out of the chamber. And worst of all, the groups flat out SFA (that is sucked for air) in "old" Army slang. Tried Winchester factory 55 fmj and some reloads with Winchester 55 fmj bullets and IMR 4895 powder (I believe). I've fixed the bolt issues but never got around to shooting it again (make a note - shoot the vARmint rifle, soon).
How bad were the groups at 25 meters? Uhh, nickle to quarter sized. The rifle should be doing that somewhere out past 150, or 175 yds. at least. No way a CAR 15 with a 10.5" barrel and no sling should shoot better groups than 24" SS heavy barrel with full floated handguard and bipod. But it does. Oh well, work for another day, another range.
Ya'll have a good one, and remember the idea behind building your own AR - 1) save some money getting exactly what you want in an AR - whatever that may be, 2) you'll know that rifle way better than buying one since you put it together with your own hands and tools, 3) learn to shoot it - real well, so folks will ask you where you learned to shoot like that and you can tell'em.....APPLESEED!!
Which outfit has the best overall pricing on AR15 kits? I just bought a lower and am wanting to get started building one.
Try Model 1 Sales in Texas. Standard 20" kit $460.00 903-546-2087. Good luck as most everyone is on a 12 week back log
They certainly seem to have a wider array of optional equipment with which one can build what one wants and the prices are not as stiff as I've encountered elsewhere.
I tried to post a picture of the rifle I'm desirous of (besides a Springfield Armory M1A), but for some reason could not.
Chrome bolt and carrier a good investment? It's a $50 upcharge.
I don't believe so. Now a chrome bore and chamber.....YES
I'm building with a stainless steel HBAR barrel, not carbon steel.
SouthernGrey -
I recommend AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide (Kuleck & McKee).
Very thorough discussion of materials and how to choose from the multitude of materials, etc. which can be had.
Also contains excellent coverage of how to build and essential tools you'll want to use.
FB
While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?
This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:
1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00 $776.00
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.
1) I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2) Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3) Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3) What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?
Quote from: Southern Grey on January 19, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?
This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:
1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00 $776.00
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.
1) I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2) Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3) Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3) What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?
SG -
Looks like a pretty good setup. I only recommend the book because sooner or later you may want to "tinker" and it's an excellent book to have handy.
I'm ordering much the same upper kit with HBAR chrome moly, no fluting, 20 inch. I think 20 inch is minimum barrel for AR-15.
I think I will order a match trigger for it.
Good luck with it.
FB
Quote from: wcmartin1 on November 17, 2008, 11:16:19 PM
http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm
Not necessary for Appleseed, but truly match grade in case y'all also wanna shoot some highpower and be competitive with 10's and X's across the course.
SG,
You have quite a rifle planned out !!!
Some thoughts:
The Marines Corps TM 05538C-23&P/2 manual (guns shows about $6.00) is valuable to have also.
The A2 fixed handle w/ forged front sight is basic, robust, dependable and quite capable of being a Rifleman's Rifle. If you want the A3 flat top, cool. Be advised that the removable carry handle has different MOA values than the fixed handle. Not that it's a bad thing, just have to remember that it's different.
Ambi charging handle is a niceity. If you are a lefty, have you checked out Stag arms? They make uppers designed for lefties.
Free float tube is a good idea. Lets you crank the sling "snug" without "bending" the barrel. (don't laugh) It can move point of impact depending on how much tension is on the sling each time you sling up.
Collapable stock? OK, sure. Again a niceity. You will, however, loose the buttstock storage area for your cleaning gear and / or spare parts. Also may have to modify it for proper cheek weld.
Ambi safety? Sure. (Brownells) ARs can be modified till you run out of money!!! Brownells probably has most of this stuff. You may want to get the basic rifle, shoot it, then try some options. You may find it works GREAT for you as is. Just remember, the more stuff you "bolt" on, the more stuff can shake loose (A3 handle, ambi safety, rear sight, front sight / post) and the heavier your rifle becomes. If it falls off, it may be lost.
Model 1 uses Shaw barrels. Don't know who makes their uppers.
I own several ARs, have assembled quite a few from a "weapons kit", have worked on more. Seen and shot quite a few with various options at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Appleseeds. Doesn't make me an expert by any stretch!!!!! #)
One last thought, don't dump soooo much money in your rifle that you will be afraid to modify or use it for fear of "damaging" it's value. At AS rifles get wet, dusty, dirty, frozen, scratched, stepped on, and well, kinda used and abused. Remember, IT IS A TOOL.
Take what you like, leave the rest. Either way, you will enjoy building / assembling YOUR rifle.
Good Luck and have fun with it ;D
EEL
For what it's worth (my experience and body proportions don't match everyone else) I have replaced the collapsable stock on my vARmint rifle with an A2 butt stock. Even though I have the collapsable stocks on 2 other ARs I just never got comfortable behind the vARmint rifle with the collapsable stock so I put a fixied stock on it. As they say, YMMV.
For the record, someone told me (way back there) that I wouldn't like the first buttstock. I don't know why it doesn't seem to bother me on the short barreled rifles (CAR15 and S&W M&P 15). I went through 3 different scope mounts/bases on the vARmint rifle as well trying to make it "fit" me. Stock was too low, raised up wasn't far enough forward, raised and forward seems to fit.
Thanks for the input. I really wanted to get nearly exactly what I thought I wanted the first time out. This excludes only a tricked out trigger set up which can come later if I need to do it.
I was hoping that it would be a great shooter when I got it dialed in.
As far as Appleseeds are concerned, I've got 22s, but this offered to be quite a hoot to work with for at least half the weekend seeing as how I want to achieve that 210 mark next time out.
I have Rock River Arms 2 stage triggers on two of my rifles and they are sweet.
However, the S&W rifle has the stock trigger in it and it's not bad, not as good as the RRA's, but way better than the triggers I replaced in those other rifles. When you get yours put together try it, the trigger may be fine.
Old Dog
Something seems very amiss with your assembled vARmint rifle above. Something seems very loose (barrel nut, rings, scope reticule adjustment (don't laugh), barrel extension) to get groups that large.
Please let me know what the real culprit was when you find it as there is no good reason it shouldn't be shooting under 1/4" groups at 25m with your above mentioned setup
Quote from: Southern Grey on January 19, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
......
This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:
1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; ...... $776.00
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.
1) I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2) Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3) Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3) What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?
Model 1 Sales is the Earl Scheib of the AR world. There is a reason it is cheaper... <:)
A complete Bushmaster A3 20" stainless upper with a pinned FSB is around $600. When looking through a scope, you will never even notice the front sight. I recommend using a removable carry handle instead of a BUIS type rear sight. The geometry is spot on and everything is very durable. Mine is very accurate with a variety of ammo.
Armalite and RRA offer similar uppers.
RRA 2 stage match triggers are less than $100 wholesale. Your groups would thank you. If you are building your bare lower, it makes no sense to start out with a GI style trigger..
If your intention is shooting Appleseed and High Power, a standard A2 stock is the way to go. The cheek weld on a collapsible stock is no where near as nice and the difference is more prevalent when you add optics.
900+ yard effective AR-15? O0
http://www.sniperinfo.com/showthread.php?t=7
Quote from: Southern Grey on January 19, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
While certainly a good idea (I've looked at the book at Amazon.com), is there something in particular that I've written that caused you to tell me of the book?
This is the equipment order I'm contemplating:
1 20'' AR15 Standard Rifle Kit; 5.56 NATO; Fluted stainless, 1-9, A2 FH, $100.00 option; A3 w/YHM removable flip rear sight, $75.00 option; Steel gas block w/YHM flip front sight, $65.00 option; Standard bolt & carrier; Wook ambi extended latch chg hndl, $6.00 option; Aluminum free float tube, $25.00 option; 6 position M-4 stock, $25.00 option; ERGO SG grip, Ambi, $20.00 option; Black $776.00 $776.00
has been added to your Model 1 Sales Online Store order.
1) I'd like to know the manufacturer for the upper and barrel assemblies.
2) Do you have the ambidextrous safety option?
3) Is the Wook Ambi extended latch charging handle automatically set up for a lefty?
3) What would you estimate the time to ship a pair of these?
Don't know about Model 1 but I dropped the fluting from my DPMS as it added a 12-24 month delay for a fluted barrel.
I ordered a .300 Fireball kit from Model 1 and was told 18 weeks.
Good luck with your project. AR's are the erector set of the gun world. :)
Quote from: MrBill on January 20, 2009, 06:57:02 PM
Old Dog
Something seems very amiss with your assembled vARmint rifle above. Something seems very loose (barrel nut, rings, scope reticule adjustment (don't laugh), barrel extension) to get groups that large.
Please let me know what the real culprit was when you find it as there is no good reason it shouldn't be shooting under 1/4" groups at 25m with your above mentioned setup
Yup. The barrel/free float tube nut was loose. I pulled the gas block and the gas tube and got another notch or two and then reinstalled the gas tube and gas block. Finally got to the range today.
first group off the bench with 5 rounds loaded with 55 grn. fmj's and IMR 4895 were low and left and the group wasn't impressive (the bench is too high and the chairs too low so the rifle was way back off the bench as were my elbows). Since I had my mat with me and Black Creek allows prone shooting I got down on the concrete and started moving the scope to get the group to move to the right (I didn't mind it being and 1" low but the 1.5" left had to be fixed). Those five shots were from a box of my reloads I dug out of the attic the other day. Loaded Dec. 12, 1985 and sitting up in the attic in the summer heat and humidity and winter cold all these years. I got the POI moved over and shot a five shot group on a 30 caliber bullet hole. Three rounds tore a hole and the other two rounds opened it up a little. I shot the last 10 rounds on another hole in the target and will skip a discription of that group until I get a chance to by some H335 powder and some more Hornady 45 grain spire point bullets to see if I can duplicate the performance. Excep for one flyer it is the smallest group I ever shot at 25 yds.
That's how it works sometimes. Luck. You shoot a load you would never have picked on purpose (these were loads for my Rem. 700 varmint special - which I haven't shot in 25 years either) and I would never purposely have loaded 45 grain bullets for my 1 turn in 9" vARmint rifle since everyone knows 1 turn in 9" is just too fast for such a light bullet. @)
The real purpose for going to the range? To let my son try out his new AR15 flat top. He's happy with it. No optics yet, just the BUIS (matech). He shot two five shot groups during sight in. Why two groups? First group was with the rear sight set on 200 yds. (I should have explained it to him first but I was watching the bolt/brass to see if it was functioning correctly). I noticed the sight setting and had him put it on the white line for the battle sight setting and shoot a second group. Both groups were on for windage, adjusting the sight up slightly put the group on POA.
Now for the good part. He went down and got his targets and told me he was keeping the second target. I asked why and he told me because it was a much smaller group than the first group. I asked why and he said, "because I used the sling on the second group, dad." Don't you just love it! ;)
Wow, this post was resurected.
I suppose I can add, that I finally got mine built...
I had to go with an M4 style, because that's what was available!
BCM Upper, Del-ton lower, LMT? bolt, UTG stock/carry handle.
I never did cancel my model1sales order for the gov't profile a2... So, I may get that too sometime this decade.
Got one group, approx. 3moa, but most arround 4 or 5(I've got position details to work out with this new rifle, but it'll get done ;) )
Quote from: AFTERMATH on July 18, 2009, 10:52:35 PM
I never did cancel my model1sales order for the gov't profile a2... So, I may get that too sometime this decade.
When did you order it? I ordered a gov't A2 upper in January. They called me Friday, they said it will ship Monday and I should have it by the end of the week.
QuoteWhen did you order it? I ordered a gov't A2 upper in January. They called me Friday, they said it will ship Monday and I should have it by the end of the week.
The end of March, or early April....
forgot to add, the leather (1903) sling is coming off the M1917 prior the next range trip.
darn thing seemed to work fine prior to trying to use it on a day when it was hot and muggy enough that my body was sloppy wet with sweat. That leather stuck to my arm like glue every time it touched. I like to never got it worked up high on my arm, then I was about to cut it to get it off. Don't suggest a shooting jacket. I don't use'em. If it's so hot and muggy my legs are leaving wet spots on the concrete where they stick off the shooting mat (my t-shirt and shorts were pretty much soaked through) I sure ain't puttin' on no heavy jackets.
I also had to adjust it going from standing to prone (what a pain, trying to adjust from one set of holes to another with a brand new/stiff leather sling). I do not have to make sling adjustment with my cotton/nylon web slings and that's what is going on the M1917 as soon as I dig one up.
Between the sling issues and the teeny/tiny little front sight post I think I'll try the cast bullet loads in the M1 next.