Lewiston (Lapwai) Idaho, May 2 & 3

[jeffdubya]

Looks like many (if not most) of the AARs are started by instructors or instructors in training... so I hope I am not breaking protocol by jumping the gun and getting my post on here early.

I have heard about the Appleseed project and happened upon this event by complete random chance several days ago. I showed up on Saturday morning at the urging of one of the organizers and another participant. When I arrived I was told in pretty uncertain terms that I would not be able to participate because the class was completely full.

I decided to hang around and watch the safety instructions because I had never experienced any kind of formalized training with rifles or other firearms - I wanted to see what it was all about. I also wanted to meet and give my regards to one of the people I had met via email previous to the event.

The next thing I know, one of the instructors is asking me if I wanted to shoot!

Well, needless to say it was an amazing weekend for me. I went from "why am I here?" to a mostly respectable 166... I may not be a rifleman but I'm no longer a cook either. I am looking forward to continuing my training and becoming a rifleman. What a fun, exhausting, amazing experience.

[Mogget]

I am glad you decided to hang around, and even more pleased that you did get to shoot!

Mogs

[jeffdubya]

I am glad you decided to hang around, and even more pleased that you did get to shoot!

It was a great event. I hope someone will post the names of the instructors so they can get appropriate credit. All three of them were great and I learned a lot from all of them.

[jeffdubya]

The Upsetter, Strat, Silence

[STRAT]

An honor and a pleasure as always, good to see so many shooters committed to becoming Riflemen.

I am told that location only gets 17 inches of rain a year and it was saved up just for us, on Saturday and Sunday. 

Thanks to Ken from Lewis and Clark Range for being so generous, he went above and beyond the call, great folks all.

Now ID needs the Riflemen to put on the orange cap.

Not a pleasant return ride for a motorcycle, cold, freezing and rain.

Exhausted will try back after some rest.

[Reformed Redneck]

Friends,

Yes, another fine shoot under our belts.

What a great crew of people to meet and get to know! From the instructors to the folks of the club staff to the participants, it was a great opportunity to progress in rifleman training and to meet many like minded people.

I can't help but mention that we had 5 (or maybe 6) new rifleman scores. One interesting fact here is that the new riflewomen outnumbered the new riflemen. The ladies seem to be better students than a good number of us gentlemen. Western Rose made her Riflewoman score 4 or 5 times. Congratulations to all!

This shoot provided many of us with a more local site, and has allowed us to make contact with a number of folks that live pretty close by. There were a number of conversations about developing a basic team to organize future shoots, and hopefully staff them with local instructors. We'll keep you all informed as to how we progress.

Best regards as always,
the Redneck

[jeffdubya]

Reformed Redneck - you were one of the guys who encouraged me to come out, and I caught your brass all weekend long. 

I really enjoyed meeting you and your family, hope to stay in touch and shoot again soon...

I'm admittedly a bit gung-ho following the event - I apologize... but honestly, I can't imagine how I could not be. It was a GREAT experience. I am going to write an email to send to some friends and family later today encouraging them to make it to a shoot.

I also wanted to thank you for your field sermon, Reformed Redneck. It was great. I am downloading it now, and as I have become very active in some pseudo-political stuff at the grassroots level, I have been doing some public speaking, I'm sure that a few of your tidbits in there will be recycled... just chock full of fascinating history, placed into it's proper historical context. SO refreshing. Hope you have a chance to read the copy of the 5000 Year Leap that I gave you, I think you will enjoy it.

[tdow]

Silence, The Upsetter, and Strat, thank you all for your time and instruction.  I learned as much as I did at my first Appleseed.  I hope to keep learning, and to start practicing the 7th step a little more frequently.  My daughter had a lot of fun.  She'll be my first coaching project.

jeffdubya, it was a nice surprise to see you there (although I don't know why it was a surprise).  Consider coming out to Castle Rock (Vader) WA on 6/13-6/14.  You would definitely appreciate the local instructors out there.  Remind your wife that she shoots free 

Reformed Redneck,  I'm glad I met you.  I'll definitely get working on getting on as an IIT and seeing if there's a range on the Palouse that would be willing to host an Appleseed (+ a bunch of dry fire and history reading).

Being around a group of Americans that understands what is going on really made my weekend.

Thank you.

[jeffdubya]

jeffdubya, it was a nice surprise to see you there (although I don't know why it was a surprise).  Consider coming out to Castle Rock (Vader) WA on 6/13-6/14.  You would definitely appreciate the local instructors out there.  Remind your wife that she shoots free 

tdow... the only problem with reminding my wife that she shoots free is that she may end up going, and I may have to stay home and watch the kids! I also enjoyed getting to know you a bit better. I hope our families can get together and become friends. I think we probably have a lot in common, aside from the perception by some of being an insane person. (inside joke)

Right now I am thinking about Castle Rock, Monroe and Boulder, MT...

[jeffdubya]

Some photos that Ken Jacks with the gun club shared with me this afternoon...

[jeffdubya]

http://www.redcounty.com/a-nation-riflemen?taxonomy=42

[MeanStreaker]

Very nice report, Jeff!

[Reformed Redneck]

jeffdubya,

Thanks for catching the brass. Too bad it wasn't boxer primed.

Enthusiam is as important as marksmanship. It simply needs to directed properly. The seventh step is as important as the other six.

As to your wife, you should refer to this topic elsewhere on the site ("Is snuggling with my wife work?"), and do the babysitting necessary. It'll pay great dividends in the end.

tdow,

I love the view of the MIA chamber. Truly a beautiful sight!

You two and I should stay in touch, and see what we can do to help organize future shoots in Idaho and western Washington. Also, Mort here on the AS site is a local guy. If we can become more local, with the assistance of the established AS staff, we will be able to do more and hold more events. Remember, both of our shoots in Idaho were sold out very quickly. Demand is high and increasing.

Best regards to you all.
the Redneck

[STRAT]

SNODAR is AppleSeed scheduled every 4th weekend of each month but if Idaho and Eastern WA can schedule an event for an open weekend I would be happy to come over and help.

[Reformed Redneck]

Strat,

Thanks for the great offer.

When we were in Coeur d'Alene a couple of weeks ago, there was considerable discussion with the club members about the possibility of holding another shoot there this year. Nothing was determined, but Atticus might have some more detail about how the subject rests now. The club guys are really a great bunch, and it would be a little closer for you!

Thanks,
the Redneck

[jeffdubya]

I'm in.

[akjaeger]

My 13 year old son Joe and I attended this Appleseed and what a great experience it was!
The instructors and the event curriculm were excellent and the attendees made the weekend a blast.
We'll be attending more and hopefully my wife will be able to join us next time.
Joe has been shooting since an early age, the emphasis of most, if not all of my instruction to him has been on safety and hunting. We are lucky enough to have a place to shoot near our home where I can run him through lots of fun, informal plinking sessions geared towards his ability as a hunter/shooter. He's always been a good student but sometimes not so enthusiastic.
Last weekend was the most excited I'd ever seen him about shooting!
My thanks go out to all the instuctors, The Upsetter, Silence and Strat and to the attendees who made us feel welcome.

[T3]

My son and I were there as well...Tom3 and Tom4...and had a great time building some new skills. My sense is this is just the beginning for us as we will be working on further refinements (bought a bunch of Fred's targets) with the goal of attending another appleseed this year. SNODAR comes to mind as the best option. Thanks Strat for hosting events monthly; it offers a lot of flexibility.

The instructors were top notch (Upsetter, Silence, and Strat were patient, competent, methodical, and engaging) and the techniques were solid. Although we didn't make rifleman, both of us shot near 150, and that was a far cry from where we started.

One point: My recollection is that all (or the majority) who achieved rifleman were shooting with glass. I know that's acceptable to the program, and I applaud their achievements.

Our goal is to do it through iron (in our case short-radius carbines). If I qualified with a scope and had to revert to iron sights, I'm not sure the results would be as favorable as if I qualified with iron and had to use a scope. Simply an opinion from a guy whose gopher blaster is scoped.

As a member of the host LCWC range, I appreciate the cooperation of range management in hosting "outside" instruction. I'm sure it's not an easy sell in some cases (vis-a-vis Fred's comments in the recent SGN), but the evidence clearly indicates hosts can expect highly structured, safe, well-attended appleseeds at ranges that often struggle to maintain membership and solvency. What's in it for them? How about a reawakening of a motivated membership with the opportunity for ongoing skill refinement events. That should reframe the business model.

[jeffdubya]

I would have joined the club by now, but it seems that the only time you can practice the prone shooting techniques are during monthly competitions. It would make a lot of sense if hosting ranges make some time available for these sorts of activities. Until I qualify as rifleman on a few platforms with a variety of sights, I plan on shooting consistently - in the style and with the targets endorsed by appleseed.

[akjaeger]

I need to sign up again with the LCWC. I'm gonna try to shoot the silhouette match there this Saturday. I haven't been to one in a few years, but I'm all fired up now. I think they still have a class for pistol cartridge lever or slide action rifles, good offhand practice.

T3, I agree with you on the use of iron sights, it's a lot easier to switch to a scope later. I shot my Winchester model 52 with aperture sights and switched to my FAL later. The model 52 has a really long barrel which makes  for a nice long sight radius. The FAL has a 1.75X6 scope on it and that makes seeing the targets easier. The scope doesn't make well defined targets in good light any easier to hit than a properly set up aperture sight. For me the scope comes into it's own under hunting type conditions, poor light, target movement and the need to positively identify the target.
I had my son shoot a scope sighted .22 sporter as that's what he is most familar with and I wanted him to concentrate on the shots he could get off. He might get to shoot a semi- auto next time around.
All this from an alaskan brown bear guide whose backup rifles are all big bore lever actions with "ghost ring" aperture sights!

[jeffdubya]

T3, I agree with you on the use of iron sights, it's a lot easier to switch to a scope later.

I agree with this in principle... the problem I have is that my ARs are the ORC (Optics-Ready) platform and I don't even have BUIS on this thing yet! But I plan on qualifying on every rifle I have eventually, if it has iron sights, I will learn to shoot properly both with and without them.

[STRAT]

BUIS or Back Up Iron Sights are just that, there is two exceptions to the rule but in general BUIS sights are emergency Back Up, they are very inaccurate and prone to misalignment, they do not repeat their location well.

Sights that fold down are also prone to breaking easy, they are often down when you need them most and up and in the way when you do not need them.

The A2 is one of the exceptions but they do not fold down either.

The EOTechs and Aimpoints are not as accurate in general as Iron Sights but they are very fast in real lethal encounters, new shooters may learn faster with the dot sight but do not learn the basics of the SIX STEPS to firing the shot as much as Iron Sights.

On carbine rifles with short sight radius like the M-4/AR-15 no longer work for me with older eyes, the front post just does not come into focus for my eyes and many of my associates of similar age.

Everything has it's pluses and minuses and any rifle will do if you will do, but good quality glass has a lot of advantages, dot sights are fast and accurate for close quarters battle, but distance is your friend and good glass helps more than it hurts.

[Nickle]

My experience with the current issue BUIS sights has been good, and some of the guys shoot well with them.

I've also had decent experiences with the Aimpoint Comp M2 (issued as an M68 CCO), but, when we replaced them with Comp M4's, I ended up with an ACOG instead.

If you turn the intensity down on the Aimpoint, the dot gets effectively smaller, and we have gotten hits out to 300 on the pop-up range, about the same as with the M16A2/M16A4 rifles we had before.

[STRAT]

If you turn the intensity down on the Aimpoint, the dot gets effectively smaller, and we have gotten hits out to 300 on the pop-up range, about the same as with the M16A2/M16A4 rifles we had before.

Same experience here, against man size or half size targets the dots are very fast and accurate and turning them down and using them like a MIL-DOT in a scope where only the edge of the dot is used will help tighten up the group size, but with very few exceptions the Iron Sights place smaller group size on paper.

Only reason to mention it is for AppleSeed purposes on AQT, not actual placing hits on bad guys or military pop-ups.

With the price of ammunition these days, I hate to see anyone spend ammo to learn lessons already learned.

[colycat]

Jeff, in reading this from afar,  looks to me like you are appleseed material.   Where is the SB on the AAR, or for that mater, were there any Red hats there? 

Colycat

[jeffdubya]

Jeff, in reading this from afar,  looks to me like you are appleseed material.

Well, unfortunately there are some among you who might not agree. I consider myself a patriot and I am exploring avenues of related involvement. I sure had a good time. Just got my challenge coin in the mail today, it's making me wish I could go do some more appleseed shooting this weekend!

Where is the SB on the AAR, or for that mater, were there any Red hats there

Well, since I need translation, maybe I'm NOT AS material?! hehe I *think* the SB (shoot boss???) was the upsetter if I translated the lingo wrong, ask again in newb english

[STRAT]

hehe I *think* the SB (shoot boss???) was the upsetter if I translated the lingo wrong, ask again in newb english

Shoot Boss was Silence 

TheUpsetter is IIt4 on his way to RBC in MT and RedHat this weekend hopefully.

[tdow]

Jeff,

You're Appleseed material alright.  You have a lot to offer (but I think we knew that already).

--tdow

[jeffdubya]

tdow... can you convince my wife of that?

[MeanStreaker]

jeff, has she been to an event yet?  That's step 1 for getting our better halves on board with the program.