7.62x51

[Spatulaman]

 Has anyone tried the Silver Bear line of ammo in an M1A? I finally got my Polytech shooting well, just as the surplus stuff dried up. I don't shoot Wolf ammo, period (not after seeing a Sig P239 and a S&W CS40 blown up with Wolf ammo). Anyone know anything about this line of ammo, or any of the other (former?) Combloc producers?

[1911Ron]

I don't have first hand knowledge of silverbear, i heard tho it came from the same place as Wolf don't know for sure. I would look over at the M14 firing line or some others and poke around see what others have to say.  btw welcome hope to see more of you around

[Old Dog]

I'd recommend learning to reload.  Cheaper than buying new factory stuff and you can "build" a load that makes your rifle shoot better.

[bob 210]

I've tried Silver Bear 308 and my 308 Garand loves it, but the M1A hates it. On the other hand the M1A likes the new Wolf 308, not the laquer coated stuff...the new stuff with the powdery coating.

[wcmartin1]

Silverbear is Barnaul
Standard Wolf is Tula
Wolf Gold is Prvi Partizan

Spatulaman, here are some more thoughts on this topic as previously posted:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=462.0

[Nickle]

Big difference between Russian (Tula) and Privi Partisan (Yugoslavian).

Privi Partisan is the vendor for Graf and Hornady brass. Their 7.62x54R brass is really good stuff.

[Spatulaman]

Big difference between Russian (Tula) and Privi Partisan.

Privi Partisan is the vendor for Graf and Hornady brass. Their 7.62x54R brass is really good stuff.

As I understand it, Privi is made in Serbia, not the former USSR.

[Nickle]

As I understand it, Privi is made in Serbia, not the former USSR.

Yes it is. I'm not sure if it's Serbia, but it's definitely Yugoslavian. I fixed my post to reflect that.

[KodyJaret]

The case of prvi I've got is clearly marked : 'made in serbia'.

One thing it has going for it ,,,it's not subject to 'surplus' regulations.

[GunRights4US]

Serbia is a part of what used to be Yugoslavia.

In my experience the Privi stuff shoots great. 

[ax238]

I just had my first exerience with the Siver Bear in .308.  The only thing I got from it was good practise clearing malfunctions.  Like my post about the Barnaul  red seal sticky stuff, I have learned that with this Barnaul Silver bear stuff i am going to have to really clean my rifle.  YUCK!! 

[Recon-one]

I cannot find where I read it but I read you do not want to shoot magnetic bullets in your rifle.(I'm sure some here can clarify that statment). The Silver Bear ammo that I bought to deer hunt with was magnetic. I scraped the bullet with my knife blade and the bullet has merely a copper wash, scraped down to steel without any significant effort. I read the steel bullets will erode your riflle's bore after very little shooting. I did not use these bullets at all.
Those that know, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding magnetic bullets.

[Buckshot]

I cannot find where I read it but I read you do not want to shoot magnetic bullets in your rifle.(I'm sure some here can clarify that statment). The Silver Bear ammo that I bought to deer hunt with was magnetic. I scraped the bullet with my knife blade and the bullet has merely a copper wash, scraped down to steel without any significant effort. I read the steel bullets will erode your riflle's bore after very little shooting. I did not use these bullets at all.
Those that know, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding magnetic bullets.

Recon-one,

All of the Greek and the US LC that the CMP recently had have bullets that react with a magnet.  Most M-80 Ball, AL M855 Ball and many M193 Ball bullets will also react with a magnet.  I am guessing this is what you mean by "magnetic bullets"?

Buckshot

[Recon-one]

Buckshot, as best I can recall the information regarding the magnetic bullets it stated some magnetic bullets have a steel component but the steel is surrounded by copper alloy jacket, a magnet will react mildly. These are safe to shoot because the alloy is thick enough to prevent the rifling from contacting the steel component. The Silver Bear cartridges I bought had a bullet that strongly attracted a magnet. That caused me to become suspicious of their construction so I scraped them with a knife blade to see how thick the jacket actually was, it was so thin it was almost non existant. It was merely a copper wash. These were the ones that the source material, (wish I could remember where it came from) had warned against their use. They are capable of quickly wearing a bore out. The source material stated these types of bullets were designed for use in a bore that is completely chrome lined, the chrome being hard enough to resist excessive wear. It further stated that the usual use of these bullets were for fully automatic weapons where "good" accuracy was actually detremental to the designed purpose of the firearm. Good accuracy would diminish the size of the "cone of fire" from a machine gun.
Much of the surplus ammo that was "recently" available was actually de-linked machine gun fodder, that makes me nervous about its construction. I think I will do a knife scrape on everything that I shoot from now on.

[Recon-one]

Did I fart or something? Everyone clammed up like they "found a turd in their churn after they got done making butter!
The Silver Bear ammo I referred to is described as 140 gr Bimetal SP, Zinc plated steel case. The projectile is obvioulsly lead pointed (soft point) so I thought bi metal was indicating lead core with copper alloy jacket, good hunting round. Wrong! The copper is merely a disguise for a steel jacket. And no I didn't put the magnet on the zinc plated steel case, I put it on the projectile and it is strongly magnetic. As a comparison I have some AP in 30/06, I put the same manget on it to detect the difference in magnetic attraction. Big Difference! The AP is steel but it is contained within a copper alloy jacket so the attraction is subdued. Not so with the Silver Bear (Barnhaul) it is strongly attracted.
I posted to see if anyone else had read, heard of the same information I had, evidently not. So Beware! Silver Bear (Barnhaul) uses a steel bullet and the steel will contact your rifling causing excessive wear. Don't use this stuff unless you have a chrome lined bore, designed for its use.
What I read was that some new guys started out with this stuff in a new rifle and though they acquired skill in shooting, the rifle was wearing out so fast they could not tell any improvement in their shooting. They were quitting in disgust when it wasn't their skill that was lacking, it was the equipment that was failing and they did'nt recognize the problem.
So,again, any one else heard of this?

[Nickle]

Well, I hadn't responeded, mostly because I have no great interest in the stuff, because I make my own ammo.

But, I see that some info is warranted.

Now, I haven't checked the Silver Bear ammo myself. But, I know that what Recon-one is posting has been found on other ammo, and what he desribes is totally logical. So, I tend to believe him, even though I haven't checked it myself.

I will add a disclaimer that some mild steel core ammo (particularly some M80 Ball and M59 Ball, both USGI 7.62 NATO) has been known to have a fairly strong magnetic attraction, even more than AP has.

Now, let me "cut to the chase". I wouldn't use this stuff, or recommend it to anybody. It's not worth the risk of wrecking a good barrel. Either pay the higher price for better stuff, or start "rolling your own".

Remember the Indian ammo, the 97 or 98 vintage garbage? Well, this stuff appears to be today's Indian.

[Old Dog]

Same here.  Sorry if it seemed like no one was interested, but I don't use it either.  Got some SA, some Australian and some S&B in 7.62X51 and Greek in 7.62X63.

I'd be wary of shooting that stuff in any rifle I liked (and I like'em all).  Take Nickle's advice and prepare to start loading you own unless you run into a good deal on some military surplus ammo.

[MOGromit]

John's Vermont Gunshop (the host? of Frugal Squirrels) has South African available (FRN250 per 3 battle packs or FRN750 per case of 9 battle packs).  Works out to just shy of FRN0.60 per round.  Shipping included to CONUS.

http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african.html
http://www.ammo-connection.com/ammo_south_african_case.html

Pricey, but I haven't seen any other offerings lately.

AZ Gromit

[Nickle]

And that same South African has been known to shoot well enough to make Rifleman.

[Santander]

South African will definitely get ya to rifleman      That's what I stocked up on for my M1A.

Question about the magnetically attractive rounds. I've still a case or two of Portuguese 7.62x51 NATO that I used shoot out of my CETME before I got my M1A. It always shot great, and people used to rave about this stuff... but it sounds like the Port might fall into the same category of lowering barrel life.  Would you say that's accurate?  (Not that I'm about to give away or even sell my supply or Port just yet). :-)

Tony

[MIGHTY MOUSE]

You are  right you should sell those cases to me immediately

[wcmartin1]

I haven't shot any Portuguese, but I did find some here:

http://www.polygunbag.com/ammunition.html

I did notice that it has the NATO cross.  Hmmm...Anyone else have any luck with this stuff?

[wcmartin1]

Also, in regards to Lithuanian Surplus (GGG headstamp) - here are some excerpts from their website:

"GGG specializes in the production of cartridges cal. 5,56x45 GP21 (like SS109) and cal. 7,62x51 GP11 (like M80). The production is manufactured using only the best quality materials - smokeless powder, primers, brass strip, lead and steel wire. All raw materials are tested in GGG laboratories." 

and

"GGG cartridges 7.62x51 GP11 are produced according to the requirements of STANAG 2310. GGG produces Case&Bullet Cups, Lead Cores and Bullets for these cartridges.

In 2005 cartridges has successfully passed the quality tests in NATO ERTC in Pendine and GGG has received a right to mark cartridges with NATO interchangeability sign.

NATO Design No. AC/116-33A" 

and

"In 2005, after 3 years of experience in the sphere of ammunition production, GGG cartridges cal. 5.56x45 GP21 and cal. 7.62x51 GP11 has successfully passed the quality tests in NATO ERTC in Pendine. In 2005 GGG has received a right to mark cartridges with NATO interchangeability sign."


Interesting.

[wcmartin1]

To answer my own question about the Portuguese, Boston says in his BGB that he likes it.  I'll have to check it out for myself.

[student]

The case I had shot well.  No noticable problems.  Rifleman scors easily if you do your part....

Want to part with yours?

Student

[kool aid]

Two things:

The Litho 'GGG' is superb stuff. clean and accruate. Also, Boxer primed 

Also,
The Australian is baaaaaak at:  http://surplusammo.com/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=218&osCsid=531182a15a9918d7172467b35de95591
Went up today. I wonder who was holding onto that stuff for all these years.........

It might be Berdan primed, but it is legendary.....

JUST thought you might like to know

[student]

In the interest of science I decided to do an experiment.

I reciently got 40 rounds each of Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Barnaul, and Wolf (powdery poly coated).

My plan is to run a series of groups on one inch squares at 25 yards.  I will fire the groups using A CETME, 2 FALS, and an M1A.

I plan to use a Remington 700 Sendero to shoot groups at 100 yards.

I will use various surplus ammo, and reloads as control groups.


Findings so far:

MAGNETIC ATTRACTION  using the magnet removed from a screwdriver with removable heads.

Wolf: ("Made in Russia",  very nice comercial packaging)
Bullet          Strong attraction
Case                   "

Brown Bear:("Made in Russia", inside comercial packaging one finds rounds in a paper bundle as Comblock surplus, case is green laquer coated)

Bullet           Strong attraction
Case                     "

Silver Bear: ("Made in Russia",  Packaged the same as above Brown Bear,  Case appears to be steel in the white.)

Bullet           Strong attraction
Cast                        "

Barnaul   ("Made in Russia",  Packaged the same as the other Russian ammo,   case is green laquer coated.)

Bullet           Strong attraction
Case                       "

MIA3 Ball     ("Made in South Africa", Typical surplus packaging,  Brass case, crimped primer)

Bullet            NO Attraction
Case                      "

Indian   (OVF 7.62 M80 86 head stamp,  Packaged in 10 round blister packs, Brass cased Crimped primer)

Bullet            NO Atraction
Case                      "

US surplus (NATO cross WRA 68 head stamp,  NA packaging,  Brass case  crimped primer)

Bullet            NO Attraction
Case                  "

US surplus (NATO cross LC 86  head stamp,  Delinked from M60 belt,  Brass case Crimped primer)

Bullet            Strong Attraction
Case              NO Attraction

US Surplus (NATO cross LC92 head stamp,  NA packaging, Brass case crimped primer)

Bullet         Strong Attraction
Case          No Attraction

CAVIM  ("Hencho EN Venezuela",  Comercial/ surplus packaging,  Brass case crimped and green sealed primer)

Bullet         No Attraction
Case           No Attraction

7.62mm ball (TZ 80 head stamp,  Surplus packaging from?, Brass case un-crimped primer with red sealant)

Bullet          No Attraction
Case                   "

Black Hills Match

Bullet          No Attraction
Case                 "

More on this experiment as it continues.

Student

[wcmartin1]

Ya'll getcha some of this, if you can.  It doesn't come around very often:

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=FAXM762D&s

[Dutch]

Thanks for the link wcmartin1. 

I have a case of 500 coming my way from Natchez.  I have tried to order this ammo from other sources, but it is always sold out by the time I get to it.  Maybe the holidays has everyone spending elsewhere this time?  I would buy more if not for that myself. 

I got 500 rounds a while back and if it is the same stuff, it is good quality.  My last batch was all Lake City 2006 stamped brass, great for reloading.  (Apparently the Lake City plant is operated by the same parent company as Federal.)  It was marked "Training" on the box and on another forum it was indicated this may be "rejects" from Lake City's military production.  All I know is that I hand inspected every round and it has shot flawlessly with good accuracy in my M1A.

Its also not a bad deal as it comes in at .60 cents a round shipped to Nevada.  Not cheap, but a lot of non-reloadable surplus stuff is more right now.  I will report on the composition and give a range report when it arrives.

The following link is updated regularly and provides a good summary of 7.62x51 surplus ammo availability and pricing:

http://rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=431&sid=67782f720a823b75731c267d66584e99

There is also some new Bosnian and Danish 7.62x51 listed.  Check it out...

Dutch

[wcmartin1]

Dutch,

Beatcha to it.  It's already here: (under Ammo and Reloading)

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=630.0

Thank you, though.

See ya.