Scoped Savage in 17hmr. Liberty Precision Trainer?

[Taipan]

I picked up a Savage 93R17-fvss from a local pawn shop with a 3-12X Sweet 17 scope.

I took it to the range the other day, not only was it already sighted in, it was accurate as hell. It was a windy day so that was challenging but I was able to repeatedly able to hit 1" to 2 1/2" reactive targets at about 90 yards.
What are some thoughts on using this rifle as a precision trainer?
I'm toying with the idea of a Savage Model 10 in .308 later this year.
What sort of drills would you do with this type of set up?
Thanks,
Ken (Taipan)

[zercool]

Ken;

Very nice rifle you've got there. I've got the MkII-BTVS in .22, and the 93R17-GV in .17HMR; both are phenomenally accurate rifles.

If the rifle you got does not have sling studs, that should be your first endeavor - but the synthetic stocks Savage uses may not have great support for the screws.

Scoped or irons, bolt or semi-auto, the principles of accurate shooting don't change. I shot Rifleman at my first AS with my MkII. Six steps will remain the same regardless of whether you are shooting a rifle that's capable of sub-MOA accuracy or a rack-grade service rifle.

If you can really wring that rifle out at 100yd and start turning in consistent 1" groups, you're already shooting four times better than the Appleseed standard... so dial the scope back to 3x and try it without the super-high magnification. Or stretch it out to 150yd or even 200yd. Doping wind is critical with the .17 - those little pills get tossed by even a tiny breeze.

Enjoy! (FYI, best price I've seen for .17HMR was from Midsouth Shooters at about $10/box.)

[SamD]

One of out El Paso IIT's used one in January to shoot her first AQT.
247. She was a ringer 

sam

[Taipan]

Well I have yet to make it to my first Appleseed...looks like that may be in June. I want to learn irons first, I'll use my AR with my Spikes 22 convertor which has run nearly flawless for me (with the exception of some bad Remington ammo). I think this little 17hmr will make a fine rifle though for my scoped practice.

[COLORADO]

I would suggest bringing both rifles to your first Appleseed. Better safe than sorry. I have a similar Savage 17HMR, I feel very confident with this rifle. I take mine to the range and shoot many o' targets. When I run out of targets I start shooting at the numbers on the barcode.

[Taipan]

Yeah you can count on me bringing it too. I need to find some magazines for it though.

[cmidkiff]

Just a suggestion... necco wafers at 100 yards.  Great 'reactive' target for this type of setup.

I bought the same setup a few years ago.  A very inexpensive rifle+scope on the same stock.  Took it to the range once, and I was hooked.  A few dollars later, it was outfitted with a thumbhole laminate stock, and a Leopold 3-9.  It doesn't really shoot any better, but it sure looks nicer



I _love_ that rifle.

As mentioned above, savage's plastic stocks are a bit flexible, may not be the best platform for a sling.  If your interested, Boyd's offers the stock I have as their 'Ross thumbhole sporter'.  (http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/)

[Taipan]

I wish there was a more plain jane wood stock out there for them.

[Geddys Uncle]

I wish there was a more plain jane wood stock out there for them.

plain jane....golly, dude, yer shootin the most expensive rimfire ammo made, and wanting a plain-jane stock?.....

Life's Too Short To Shoot An Ugly Gun* -----get the laminate...if you want it to look "plain-jane", WalMart's got flat black spraypaint.... and now, a lot of you go WHAT!!!! THAT'D MAKE IT UGLY!!!!..... but it'd still have the structural advantages of the laminated woodwork.....without the psychological disadvantage involved with that "better not get it all scratched up" thing going on in your head.



*....unless it's an AR, or a Mosin, or a Simonov, or an AK, or something from France(really, avoid those!)

[Mark D]

One of out El Paso IIT's used one in January to shoot her first AQT.
247. She was a ringer 

Wow, o.k....so let's all remember that when we have someone on the line that says that they can't shoot rifleman because they brought a bolt-action.  247...wow...

[Geddys Uncle]

bolt-actions give a time disadvantage......but not PROHIBITION....if somebody can shoot 247 with a manual transmission, those of us that have run out of time with self-loaders have, pretty much...hmmmm....how to word this gently....NO DAMN EXCUSE!!!!!


247 w/a handle      

[zercool]

Wow, o.k....so let's all remember that when we have someone on the line that says that they can't shoot rifleman because they brought a bolt-action.  247...wow...

The only ones I've seen have problems with a bolt gun are those who have either fixed or low-capacity magazines.

There was a young man at New Breman last fall shooting a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 and doing a heck of a good job but having some trouble with the fixed 5-round and stripper clips - and the fact that his bolt heated up enough to freeze shut, needing a mallet to open it back up.

There's another shooter that's been at VanEtten two years running shooting a Remington 700 in .270. He's doing NINE magazine changes (4-round mags) during the course of fire. Works the bolt like a machine, rides the recoil better than most shooters I've seen, but that many mag changes with the resulting NPOA loss and check is just too much for a RFAQT... he insist's he's going to do it, though! Determined, and more power to him!

Anyone familiar with their manual of arms and comfortable working their rifle should be able to complete a RFAQT in 4 minutes with a rimfire boltgun. The .17s especially, with that nice long ogive and bottleneck, have a great feeding advantage.

[Taipan]

I didn't see a model 93 stock on Boyd's website, does it have the same action as a model 10?

[zercool]

Another stock option would be a Richards - http://www.rifle-stocks.com/ - I have not used their products but they have received some pretty good reviews over on rimfirecentral.com. Expect to do a fair bit of finishing work.

Someday when I have some money to play with, I'd like to put one of their stocks on my .17.

[Taipan]

Wow those are definitely nice and they have styles that I like. Thanks for the link.

[Nevada Smith]

According to the Savage's website ( http://www.savagearms.com/93r17fvss.htm ) it uses a five round magazine--that means three magazine changes during the first three courses of fire, and two magazine changes on the last one.

By comparison Savage uses 10 round magazines for their Mark II series.

I wonder why they don't use a 10 round magazine for it? (I'll call them tomorrow and mention this issue.)

Is an after-market 10 round mag available for it?

[Taipan]

According to the Savage's website ( http://www.savagearms.com/93r17fvss.htm ) it uses a five round magazine--that means three magazine changes during the first three courses of fire, and two magazine changes on the last one.

By comparison Savage uses 10 round magazines for their Mark II series.

I wonder why they don't use a 10 round magazine for it? (I'll call them tomorrow and mention this issue.)

Is an after-market 10 round mag available for it?

Not that I know of, when I bought the rifle it was mag-less so I just ordered some from Cabellas.

[Castle Mountain]

In British military rifle qualification with the SMLE the minimum passing score was 15 hits on a siluette target at 200 yards in 1 minute.
This was required of any cook or clerk. Combat soldiers averaged 20 to 30 hits in 1 minute. Yes that was done with a Lee Enfield
.303 bolt gun.

The all time aimed fire record with a bolt action rifle was by Sgt. Snoxall of the British army, 38 hits on a 12" bull at 300 yards in 1 minute.

To expect to perform like that with a Savage .17 HMR is bordering on delirium. The pattern of shifting the poor bolt design passes
over the safety and locking it on. Ready set fire, squeeze. Nothing. Darn safety is one. Stretch to release it. Find NPOA again shoot.
Slide bolt, drop the mag, reinsert the second five round mag. Darn thing will not engage fully. Jam it again. Find your NPOA again
squeeze the shot. Nothing. Bullet failed to enter barrel. Open the bolt release the mag, reinsert, slide the bolt, find your NPOA
squeeze the shot off, repeat, squeeze another shot. Time's up. Empty your mag, safety on, Flags in. I surrender. Thanks Savage
for the poor design. The British Lee Enfield has it's bolt at the end of the rifle so the reach is not as great and the action is incredibly
smooth and fast. Savage located the safety in a dumb location, and produced only a fife round mag. If they had a ten round mag
this .17 HMR is a tac driver of a rifle otherwise. It is a great rifle. You can darn near shoot the whiskers off a cat with this rifle. But for speed and cadence forget it. How that woman shot her RIFLEMAN score so high with this gun is a credit to her uncanny ability. As for me, I am going to stay with my AR-10 for now one. Heck with the ammo cost, heck with magazine jaming, safety lock up and fighting for NPOA all the time, over and above trying to stay on target. I did really well with the Savage as a  trainer but the AR is my finisher.
I spoke with Savage Marketing Department and they are well aware of the anger over the cheapness of a five round magazine. They said
it would be another year before a ten round magazine is out in the market for sale. In the meantime I was told they are working on a
semi auto .17HMR and that it has serious design challenges. Sheesh, why don't they just do a knock off from a AK-47 like the Germans
did for a semi auto .22 but in a .17 cal format. Oh well, one day.

Cheers,

Castle Mountain

[zercool]

Savage located the safety in a dumb location, and produced only a fife round mag. If they had a ten round mag
this .17 HMR is a tac driver of a rifle otherwise. It is a great rifle. You can darn near shoot the whiskers off a cat with this rifle. But for speed and cadence forget it.

CM, I'm going to have to argue. I have both a .17 and a MkII from Savage, which have an identical manual of arms and only vary in the length of the mag well and bolt throw. The safety is in a perfectly good spot. It's easily reachable with a thumb without losing or changing NPOA.

I shot my Rifleman with my MkII. I still do - consistently. I knocked the rust off with a rapid-fire AQT in April - that was rough, only a 212. When I've had a day to get back in the groove and find the bubble, consistent 230-240 is my norm. I'm almost always done before the folks shooting 10/22s and ARs.

Speed and cadence? Step up and run a cadence drill with me. Nickle, kDan, Atticus, and Imker all saw me drop 10 shots into a 1" square in 17 seconds last summer at VanEtten... With the MkII. Obviously speed isn't an issue if you're comfortable with the rifle.

If you're knocking the safety on while manipulating the bolt, you need to adjust your grip on the bolt. No need to ham-fist it, only two fingers and the thumb needed.

Just my dime - but please, there will be no knocking of equipment, either here or on the lines. I have yet to see a rifle come to a shoot that can't shoot a rifleman score. Some will require more work from the shooter than others, that's all.

[Nickle]

it uses a five round magazine--that means three magazine changes during the first three courses of fire, and two magazine changes on the last one.

Explain this to me. If what I suspect you're thinking is what you mean, you're wrong.

2 and 8 came from the M1 Garand. 1903's, 03-A3's and other 5 round bolt guns do 5 and 5 on stages 2 and 3.

Need to do 1 mag change per string, not 2.

Now, anybody that thinks it can't be done with a boltgun really needs to key on what Zercool says. He's totally right, and not the only one that does it. Anders (a 14 year old IIT3) is just as fast and accurate, in fact, faster. He's a lefty shooting a CZ bolt gun, and he gets 10 rounds down range in 15 seconds. NattyBumpo's preferred rifle is a 513-T Remington (target bolt gun). He shot Rifleman so many times with mine that he went out and bought one (or two) for himself, plus another Remington bolt gun. High 230's-mid 240's are easy for him.

That guy shooting the .270 bolt gun? He got his patch last year, shooting a 10/22, wants to do it with his bolt gun. His only problem right now is getting enough rounds down range in stages 2 and 3. The extra mag change is shorting him a round or two on each stage, and he's real close to getting that 210+.

So, it can be done, and with just about qanything. I've even got a guy that will shoot a 210 plus with a Carcano (yup, you heard that right, CARCANO) later this year.

So, don't knock a rifle's ability to shoot, because it CAN be done with almost anything. Some rifles just are a little more challenge than others.

[Castle Mountain]

Zero Cool & Nickle. Your comments are taken to heart. You both challenge me.
I can shoot crisp tight groups with this Savage, however when up against the time clock things start falling apart. Bear in mind I have used this rifle at but two Appleseed shoots with one practice interval since I have owned it. Being a new rifle  to me, I took one instructors advice to work the bolt to wear it in and with liberal use of Action Lube from Brownells, it has made a great difference. My problems come from magazines failing to set properly or that bullets spill out of the chamber like jelly beans (this happened a few times) or the bullet failed to feed into the receiver, while thinking the bolt positioned it for me to fire. I lost a lot of time as a result of these frustrations. Practice with my hand form manipulating the bolt is in order. I noticed the fat pad of my hand glazed the safety a few times without my knowing it was occuring, which caused me more time loss having to correct it. These events seem to have been  cascading upon me during the AQT's and it did produce some frustration if not exasperation.  Other times things were going great and then something happens.

We are going to the range tommorow, to work on things, especially that which you pointed out. Dang if you boys can
shoot 212's & 230, then I am challenged to do likewise. Appreciate the words of encouragement.  Best I could do with the gun
was 190 so far. I thought I was getting real close but then the mags started acting up.

A good cleaning tomorrow and a day a the range to practice just what the doctor ordered.

One military training manual I just read (concerning the .303) suggests an hour a day just practicing bolt manipulation and slow deliberate shooting for the first two days, then to practice firing 15 accurate shots in one minute and then on the 4th day to increase to 20 rounds in one minute , then to increase five more rounds each day up to the sixth day where you can get off 30 rounds per minute. Reasonable efficiency to be attained in slow firing and then quickening.
It is suggested that fifteen minutes per day dry firing will increase handling ability by 100 percent. So gentlemen. You laid the gauntlet down and I accept the challenge. I will keep you posted of my results. I am going to see what I can do. Boy oh boy
that would be something to shoot AQT with this rifle, it really would. We shall persevere good men, we shall persevere!

[Geddys Uncle]

Endeavor to persevere.

[zercool]

Your comments are taken to heart. You both challenge me.

Glad to know you took my comments the right way! Don't get me wrong - I love my AR and my wife loves her 10/22 - but I'm a bolt shooter at heart. Same reason my pistol safe is growing revolvers instead of autos.

My best advice for timing is this: slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Working my bolt the ejection stroke is always quick and firm, but the chambering stroke is controlled and smooth. I don't try to slam the bolt shut - I push gently and let it find its own speed. I still get misfeeds - but that's the nature of a .22. Don't freak out, don't get angry at the equipment - clear the malfunction and drive on. If you have time left at the end (and if you're shooting a good cadence, you'll have all the time in the world left), then hand-feed another round and get that 40th round in. I tend to keep a fifth magazine somewhere nearby with a couple extra rounds in it, just for that sort of problem.

See you on the trail!

[DruidicRifleman]

Sheesh, why don't they just do a knock off from a AK-47 like the Germans
did for a semi auto .22 but in a .17 cal format. Oh well, one day.

The Could do a knock of of the swiss Pe-90 that would be nice and do that

Savage specificly can not do an Ak knock off in Rim fire specifically cause the rim fire's and the new Model 25 Center fire's (which are build on a variant of the rime fire action) are made at the Old lake field arms factory in Lakefield Ontario Canada it would be illegal for them to make it and export it with out Mil-LEO end user Certificates due to the AK47 having Prohibited status in canada

the m93r has some issues with the mags i was speaking to a guy who worked at the local dealer and it does seat kinda weird the mk II mags are different

my biggest Complaint "why doesn't it have a 10 round mag"

[DruidicRifleman]

Is curious about peoples results