Ceiner AR concerns

[gunville]

I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking.

The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <

After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR.  I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.

I didn't understand the delta. The 10/22 groups were pretty consistent; the AR/Ceiner "groups" were slightly broader - which I expect, but mixed in were several flyers, mostly slightly up and left or right - I didn't call these.

I figured I was just rusty with the AR (I've been conserving my .223) so I put up some 1" squares for practice. It was the same thing - groups with occasional flyers. It's almost like shooting with loose sites, but everything is rock, I triple checked.

Frustrated, I did a very un-rifleman thing - I used my range bag as a support and shot off the bench (no sling.) Still the same characteristics - a couple of accurate shots and a couple of flyers.

I went home confused, and cleaned the AR and the Ceiner.

Today, I again packed the ceiner and the AR, packed up some .223 so I could test with that as well, and returned to the range. I repeated the 1" square experiment - with the same resulting flyers. I figured I'd shot the .223 and if that went well convict the ceiner, but unfortunately some fool  forgot to pack mags. (clown bat deserved here.  )

I probably won't get to the range until Sunday - with mags and .223, but I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?

[TAZDevil]

I have a Ceiner conversion on a Kreiger barreled upper and it shoots just as well as a totally unmodified 10-22 with Wolf match ammo

However consider the following:
1. with the Ceiner you use the .223 Rem barrel of the center fire cartridge which is actualy 0.224 whereas the .22 LR uses a 0.223 barrel.
2. some rifles like one type of ammo and others like a diferent one sometimes.  if you have found the sweet one for your 10-22 but your conversion "doesn't like it"; the doesn't like it is usually manifested in throwing flyers.  don't give up on the ceiner yet.  clean the barrel down to bare steel (reeaally clean) then only shoot lead bullets that can obturate easily to the slightly larger barrel.  remember it offer takes a clean .22 RF barrel 50 rounds to "settle down", so use only the conversion and no .223 Rem as you do the checking the type of ammo test.
3. then again, rifles vary and that's the frustrating answer sometimes.

I hope this helps you in your trouble shooting (yeh I intended that)
hope to meet you on the trail
TAZ

[Junior Birdman]

   Twist rate, perhaps? Taz, I assume your dedicated upper has the proper twist for rimfire whereas the .223 barrel may not. Just a thought.

   No mags, huh?  I've never done that.........

[Nickle]

Twist rate is a key factor here, and a major reason why I won't do the Ciener conversion, short of a dedicated upper to use with it.

If you build a dedicated upper for the conversion, use an M16A1 (or Colt AR SP1) barrel, with the much slower twist. Sarco should have some used barels.

There's a reason why the Army quit using the conversions, and it's because of the difference in the twist. You think they throw a few flyers with a 1-9 twist, try a 1-7, and watch the groups grow.

[Old Dog]

Try some different ammo before you give up on it.

My CAR15 (1 turn in 9") with the .22 conversion kit shoots dime sized 10 shot groups at 25 meters when I do my part.

[gunville]

That's all good info; it's a 1:8 colt upper, an A2. At least I know the potential is there.

This weekend I'll bring Blazer (I was using Federal bulk) so that will switch me to lead bullet. Maybe I'll pick-up some stinger as well.

Generally with any rifle I snake the barrel before I shoot, if for no other reason I'm sure there's nothing in it, and may run a patch if it's been oiled. Then I snake a couple of times when I pack-up. As this is an AR, and crap's where it eats, it gets a lot of cleaning.

I hope I can get this figured out - I want to use this so I can loan out my 10/22 and drag a rifleless friend to an AS.

[vic303]

Twist rate is gonna be a good part of the issue.  Ammo choice too, is probably part.  I think the non-dedicated upper conversions (Colt, Ceiner, Spikes, CMMG etc) are best used for MEUSOC type drills and CBQ practice, not for Rifleman practice.  YMMV.

[gunville]

I want to follow-up.

I got to the range with the AR, Ceiner, and CCI Blazer.

It was cold and breezy, and I was underdressed (I was expecting 70F, not 45F) but I've been dying to try the lead bullet, so I dawned a sling-unfriendly denim car coat and unrolled my mat.

From the sighting shots I noticed an improvement in the grouping. No flyers in 350 rds!

The ammo made all the difference in the world! 

[gunville]

Twist rate is gonna be a good part of the issue.  Ammo choice too, is probably part.  I think the non-dedicated upper conversions (Colt, Ceiner, Spikes, CMMG etc) are best used for MEUSOC type drills and CBQ practice, not for Rifleman practice.  YMMV.

Using the blazer with a scope the 3 shot groups on stage 4 targets were dime sized or less; I don't feel an dedicated upper will be needed.

The square 0.070 front sight is a bit wide for my tastes, so I didn't group near as well with the irons; changing that front post out is something I will do - maybe 0.050 and round.

[TAZDevil]

glad it all worked out well!
hope to see you on the trail
good shooting
TAZ

[Surculus]

I picked up a Ceiner for my AR last fall and haven't really used it much - really just plinking.

The otherday I took it out and brought it along with my 10/22 to the range, thinking I could do something serious with it. <

After quick sighting, I did "rapid" AQT's with both rifles. I was perplexed that the 10/22 target was so much cleaner than the AR - scoring 220 with the 10/22, and 181 with the AR.  I had expected some delta - but the mantra is "pick up any rack grade rifle" and this puppy is a snuff above rack-grade - 39 pts didn't make sense.

I didn't understand the delta...
... I was wondering if anyone have ideas on this?

It's called .223 Remington for a reason. 22lr bores are .221 (nominal.) Research the "Paco Kelly tool" and bumping up 22lr to better fit the larger bore of your AR. There's a reason the m231? conversion kit was only for practice, not match work...

[Old Dog]

Quite a few folks have earned their rifleman patches with a .22 conversion kit in an AR15.

Don't get hung up over bore size.  Try some different bullets.  Different brands, different velocities.

Even 10/22's (and other .22 rifles) have their favorite, as well as less favorite, brands/types of ammo.

I have .22's that shoot Rem. Thunderbolts so well I'd be wasting my money to shoot anything else.  I have others that prefer Rem. Golden Bullets over everything else I've tried.

[Geddys Uncle]

glad to see the review on the Ceiner...been thinking of getting one, but the GIANT twist-rate difference between 1:9 (.223 55gr @ 3000fps) 1:7 (.223 70+gr @2700fps) and 1:16 (.22LR/40gr @ 1150fps) has been a discouragement.

I guess, in 25m the bullet's trajectory shouldn't deteriorate too awful much, but, a dedicated upper w/a proper twist would probably be NEEDED for squirrels, rabbits or K.D.

[gunville]

I'm not following the need for a dedicated upper. If a dangerous cook gets dime size groups at 25m with a 1:9, I'm thinking the squirrels are not safe - at least at that range.

My thinking of the ceiner was it gave me low-cost rifle time with AR15 - I could have bought another LTR for the price. Add the price of a dedicated upper and you could have bought a tricked out 10/22 or a TC.

I'm guessing the all-lead bullets get a grip on the barrel, while the plated Federals were not.

I haven't yet put a target at 100yd (other than a tin can) with the ceiner but it's worth the evaluation, time permitting. With luck it's just a 5.5" drop from 25m (if I recall 22lr ballistics.)

The powder charge for 22lr is substantially lower and the velocity slower than .223rem, so I don't think the bullets are going to tear themselves apart - they would have done that by 25yd when they had all their energy. So with 1:9 they are clearly over stabalized; that may reduce their energy, but you don't much energy for a squirrel.

[Geddys Uncle]

got a point there.....hmmmm.....

[Muskyjerk]

here is a trick I picked up

take your 1/12 suplus upper remove the gas tube
, cut it down to 4 " or so rotate it 180 degrees in the gas block and pin it back in.

it seals most if not all of the gas getting back to the action











mine still went down during the first red coat shoot,,,,,,, but I forgot to clean it....so I changed rifles

[Geddys Uncle]

So, I gather that a Ciener or similar kit is recoil/blowback activated, rather than gas-operated?

I bet somebody who's really, really clever and skilled @ small-diameter pipewelding could fit a little ball valve on an AR's gas tube...closed for .22's and open again for 5.56.


hmmmmmm...... <

[gunville]

yes, the standard 5.56 bolt is replaced with the Ceiner bolt.

This bolt has a .22lr chamber that fits into the 5.56 chamber (I'm not sure if it's 5.56 or .223 Rem sized), and it's own spring loaded bolt riding on a shaft.

When fired the AR recoil spring doesn't even seem to compress, just the spring on the ciener.

No gas tube modification is required - I guess it would help keeping it clean.

It's an AR15, clean it anyway.

If you're really into AR15's then it's probably a must-have.... otherwise I would say spend the money on an LTR.

I had it out again today. I noticed even with the CCI blazer it takes a 20-30 rounds for the groups to tighten up, and they are still not as tight as the 10/22. (Of course I shouldn't have that expectation either.)

[Geddys Uncle]

at least one of the comments upstream compared the .22LR's dirtiness FAVORABLY with the blank-adapter'd results



been there, done that......the cleaning's not to be feared

[gunville]

I had AR/Ceiner to the range for a short time yesterday - this is a text-book case of a gun liking one ammo over the other. I've never had an ammo choice effect a rifle as much as switching from Federal to Blazer did.

I lubed the ceiner with a graphite spray I picked up at Home depot for use on my 10/22. I had been using CLP in AR fashion, but liked how well this worked on the 10/22 - really smooths the action, so I gave it a try on the ceiner, lubricating the tracks the .22lr bolt rides on. in a limited sample (maybe 200 rds, I had other things to do at the range) it seems to feed better and smoother with the graphite, but time will tell.

WRT the dirtiness of the Ceiner and the 22lr, it forms a grey ash on the top part of the bolt, on the bolt return spring and guide shaft, and the parts along them. It leaves the parkerization on those parts looking un-oiled, if you know what I mean. But it's pretty easy to clean up. The bolt face and chamber adapter have more typical 22 grim that I tackle with hoppes. The barrel is - well "22LR" dirty.

[cbrant_2000]

I have also found a difference between chrome and non-chrome lined bores in a 1 in 9 twist.  non-chrome was a 2.5 MOA shooter, the chrome one was 5-6MOA, using the same ammo.

[TAZDevil]

unfortunately, rifle accuracy, esp with .22 RF, is as much an art as a science.

1. the poor shooting barrel may just be a por shooting barrel

however

2. not all barrels / chambers "like" the same ammo

3. some barrels only like expensive ammo and therefore remain "poor shooters" because expensive stuff is never tried.

4. could be poorly applied chrome, but I would not assume that all chrome barrels have poor accuracy.

experimentation is part of the fun of shooting for accuracy as oppossed to just plinking.

good shooting
TAZ

[Geddys Uncle]

ordered a Ceiner from MidwayUSA for my AR...... $139, including a 10-rd mag...added 2 "black dog" mags to the order...shipping and a small piece of "NRA roundup" put me at $210, and it's already shipped, should arrive by 6/15


I'm kind of elated, right now, like this guy-->

hope I don't end up looking like these guys-->     

I've got 4 "candidate" uppers to choose from...
a vintage pre-forward-assist (non- "A1") Colt....probably has the long twistrate
a more modern "a1" style
an M-4gery carbine
and, the least likely one, a bullbarreled, freefloated, bipodded 9lb beast with a GIANT scope on it....I'll just keep that one the way it is

[gunville]

Sounds like a good price to me

I guess you'll have to try all the uppers!

I recommend the blazer, but with 4 uppers YMMV.

[Geddys Uncle]

I think Blazer's the ONLY .22LR ammo that I don't have a sample of. I don't know why. 



-----added on edit-----ALREADY HERE!!!....ordered Monday night...messed up credit card (me, not them)...revised Tuesday night, rec'd/processed Wednesday, shipped Wednesday, arrived today (Friday)....

I like Midway.    I think I need to get some oil, some ammo and head off to the range.....tomorrow, when I've got more time.

[Geddys Uncle]

I have also found a difference between chrome and non-chrome lined bores in a 1 in 9 twist.  non-chrome was a 2.5 MOA shooter, the chrome one was 5-6MOA, using the same ammo.

same kind of thing today with me....My Ceiner goodies arrived yesterday, and, possibly for the first time in my gun-owning history, I actually got a chance to play with it INSIDE OF 24 HOURS   

had 3 guns to try it in, and 3 flavors of .22LR

had an old-vintage, pre-forward-assist Colt upper..20" presumably 1:12, and marked "C MP" and, under the handguards another faint stampstrike that says either "C" or "G"....any AR guru that can translate that for me, come on in. I like to know stuff a LOT more than just suspecting stuff.

Other two were both chromed DPMS barrels w/1:9 rates, one @ 20" and one @ 16"....

NONE shot beautifully.
as it turns out, all 3 ammos were "high-speed" stuff
Federal bulk-pak 36gr copper plated HP claiming 1260fps mv...these fed well, but, didn't group real sweet....maybe 5-6MOA, but with subgroups that looked good...kind of like poorly distributed pepperoni on a pizza.
Remington bulk-pak 36gr round-nose HP 1280fps...didn't feed as well, groups about the same non-sweetness as the Federal
Winchester Super X plated HP 37gr @ 1330fps...fed well and groups might have actually been as tight as 4MOA (just barely), but, only from the 1:9 barrels. The unknown-twist Colt didn't group that well.

Both son and I had similar results, FEED=FIRE, FIRE=EXTRACT/EJECT.....Remington = feed failure 30-50% of the time.....save it for the bolt-actions, I guess......SAFETY NOTE: SINCE THE CEINER DOES NOT ACCOMMODATE "FORWARD ASSIST", A FAIL-TO-FEED (remember, leads to fail-to-fire) MAY ALSO RESULT IN A FAIL-TO-EXTRACT OF A LIVE ROUND, DUE TO THE CLAW NOT GRABBING THE CARTRIDGE-RIM....inspect accordingly

The very best combo today looked like Becky's pink M4gery (16") and the SuperX stuff.


As it turns out, I also had a "control" rifle.  My AirForce (not USAF, the name of the company) super-duper .22cal air-rifle needed to be "zeroed".  TACKDRIVER!    I've got a cheapo BSA red-dot on it, and, since it's intended to be my yard-possum gun, I zeroed it for about 10m. @ that distance it was shooting 3-thru-2's and cloverleaves, even into a 1/4"x1/2" rectangle, even though it's a bolt-action non-repeater, which necessitates a cheek-break and pill-fumble for each shot.



So, back to the primary deal....Next time I'm able to make it to an AS, I might be sporting a Ceinerized Barbie gun, stoked w/Winchester SuperX 

[Old Dog]

Geddy's uncle, are you using black dog or cmmg plastic mags?  If so check the right side feed lip top to see if the ceiner bolt is dragging the top of the lip.  That will result in slowing the bolt down enough to not completely chamber rounds.  I scraped a little plastic off at a time while trying the mags in between scrapings till they were chambering with no problems.

As for the lack of forward assist - try just pushing the bolt forward with your trigger hand thumb.  That worked on mine till I got the bolt, feed lip dragging thing figured out.

I also degrease/lube mine and lap the bolt rails together with lapping compound to remove the parkerizing and start smoothing the bearing surfaces, then spray the lapping compound off and relube the bolt and rails.  Sort of like breaking them in quicker.  Do it with lapping compound at the house vs. with a few rounds worth of crud mixed with the lube.

I also smoothed up the forward side of the extractor with some fine sandpaper in the hopes that if it was smoother it might be easier for it to slide/pop over the rim of the case.

Not that all of the above is necessary, but the combination of the three seemed to help my kits work better.

Oh, yeah,  to determine the twist of the barrel on your older upper -
1) insert a cleaning rod from the flash suppressor down past the chamber
2) put a patch in the tip
3) pull it back towards the muzzle till you feel the patch/tip start to contact the rifling in the barrel (you know, where it gets good and tight)
4) mark the cleaning rod with a sharpie at the flash suppressor (small mark is sufficient) say at the top of the barrel
5) pull the rod out slowly till you see the mark come back around again to the same spot and mark the rod again at the flash suppressor
6) use a tape measure and measure the distance between the marks.
12" between marks means the rod turned one complete rotation in 12"
9" between the marks means the rod turned one complete rotation in 9"
etc., etc.

Once I lapped the bolt/rails of the kit and scraped that right side magazine lip down till it didn't rub anymore mine was functioning even when we'd sometimes hear a "weak" sounding round go off.  Some of the .22 rounds barely popped vs. most that cracked pretty good.  Even the poppers resulted in complete ejection and chambering of the next round.

Hope yours is similarly successful.

[Geddys Uncle]

NEATO!!!!


The Ceiner mag was, if I recall correctly, flawless  (and I could be remembering badly, too).  I got two of those big "Black Dog" mags that have the same outer dimensions as a "normal" 30rd...I think they could be crammed full of, like, 25rds.

What's the best trim-away for that feed lip? sandpaper?

tried the manual-push method for forward-assisting...couldn't get it to move that way

Where do I get lapping compound? Does it come in different grit sizes? If so, any preference for this use? I'm not a precision shooter, nor am I a barrelsmith, so, I don't expect no need any more later. For this purpose, I've got, potentially, about 94million tons a mile-n-a-half from my house (beach sand), that would be effective, if not necessarily optimum....but, I think I shouldn't do it that way 

[Old Dog]

I got it from Midway.  When I ordered this was all they had so it's what I used.

http://midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=560557

I used carb cleaner to remove the lube first and then to remove the lapping compound when I was done.

I used a pocket knife to scrape that lip down.  A couple of shallow passes (scraping, not cutting) and then try the mag to see how it did.  Sandpaper would work.  I'd lay the paper down on  a hard flat surface and try to slowly drag the mag lip across it while keeping the mag level as possible - if I was using sandpaper.

If it's rubbing you should be able to see evidence of it on the bottom right side of the bolt.  That side is not "cut" as deeply as the left side for some reason and on mine it rubbed.  Seems like I put something on here one time about that.

Yeah, the metal ceiner mag worked great on mine, too.  It was the black dog mags that had problems.

I had a nice diagram/description on the issue and what I'd done but it doesn't look like I posted it here (at least my first search didn't show it but searches here can be iffy) and I lost my hard drive earlier this year and all the work I'd put into diagrams, training materials, etc.   Just haven't had the time to try to redo all of them either, even if I could remember everything I'd done.

[Geddys Uncle]

didn't think to look for plasti-rubs before I cleaned up.....I could still do it in the living room, just with an empty magazine affixed, and working the bolt via the charging handle....  I pre-lubed the livin' daylites outta it last evening with some Tetra grease on the rails....should have done it dry, I guess.