What is your KD rifle of choice?

[Nightpoison]

A KD event is coming up later this year, and I'm in need of a new rifle. As I've started to shoot at Appleseed and transitioned into Instruction I have mainly focused on shooting rimfire. So much so I ended up getting into PRS22 competitions. However, as I mentioned, there is a 400 yard KD event coming up and I'm looking for a centerfire setup.

I do have a few AR platforms, but I honestly dislike shooting the AR with a sling. So I have a couple rifles I'm thinking about, and I wanted to see what everyone else was rocking for their KD events. What you might recommend and why.

Here is what I'm thinking, in no particular order.

• Springfield Armory
       Loaded 6.5 Creedmoor - Probably won't go this route cause I don't want a precision stock, because of the height of the forearm over the grip itself.
       Standard - If I go the M1A route, I would probably just pick up the standard issue. 
• Ruger Mini-14
       Just the standard Ranch, I know they did a target years ago, but there's no listings for them anymore. I would also not be interested in the mini-30, as I would prefer to just stick with the 5.56, rather than bump up to the 7.62.   
• M1 Garand
       This is going to be added to my collection at some point, I'm not sure if I want to pull the trigger on one right now.

What are you using? What are other options I might consider.

[Charles McKinley]

If you want an M1 Garand sooner is better than later.  I would want at least a Service grade.

If you order an M1 somewhere on the form put, "I would like a shooter please."  Rifles ordered with this request have gaged same or better than the rifle I picked out over a decade ago.

[Nightpoison]

If you want an M1 Garand sooner is better than later.  I would want at least a Service grade.

If you order an M1 somewhere on the form put, "I would like a shooter please."  Rifles ordered with this request have gaged same or better than the rifle I picked out over a decade ago.

I agree and am planning on picking up a Garand sometime this year, just not sure if I want it right now, and for the KD event. I don't know, should I consider it? When I do grab the garand, I want it in 30-06. The ammo is a little more expensive and not as many options, plus the 308 has a little less felt recoil for all-day shooting. But I believe that, 30-06, is the original caliber for the Garand, and what is needed for some CMP matches.

For the KD rifle, I would like to stick with a 5.56, but 308 and 6.5 are on the table for options in the rifles I'm currently looking at. 5.56 is my first choice as I already have a lot of it, lower recoil, and I prefer to limit the number of cartridges I own.


I'm not as knowledgable in this area, so please correct me on any misunderstandings.

[Charles McKinley]

PPU/Privi Partizan makes good M2 Ball (.30-06) in good brass to reload.

CMP currently does NOT have en bloc clips for the M1 Garand!

The Mini-14 to me is over priced for what it is.  Ruger mags are the only ones I know of that work and cost 3-5 times the price of an AR mag.

I have worn bi-vocals since I was 9 so iron sights and I don't get along the best so I have never been a fan of the M1A due to the cost and extremely high mounts needed to scope it.

Based on what you said I would pick the AR you are least adverse to putting a marksman style sling on and start practicing positions.  There is a reason the AR dominates service rifle competition.

The center fire KD is the second easiest COF in Appleseed.  100 yard rimfire KD is the easiest, then 25m AQT, 200m RFKD is the hardest.

I will gladly answer your questions or point you to someone who can.

Chuck

[Gus]

It is very hard to better an AR chambered in .223/5.56 for a known distance shoot.

I've shot at two KDs this year and have done quite well. Since I'm revving up for Camp Perry next year I shot my AR service rifle. It is topped with an 1-4x scope.  Ammo choice for KD at both Temple and Fort Bliss has been handloads featuring 62 gr Hornady FMJs and a medium charge of 748. With me in sling and lying on the ground it is a 1.5 moa set up. With the 77 gr match bullets groups shrink sub moa. These will be what I use at Camp Perry next year. Possibly at Talladega as well if I can manage a trip to Alabama in the spring.

My son shot with me at Fort Bliss and he favors a bolt action in the form of a Ruger American in 5.56. It loves 68 grain loads and takes AR magazines. With it he qualified with a Rifleman score and also got the cold bore shingle. If you're looking for something different from an AR a bolt action is something to consider.

Love that you're considering a Garand!  I have one and it's a shooter.

Good luck at your KD!

In Liberty,

Gus

[Smallbore]

I don't recommend a Mini 14.
They are great rifles, for what they are intended to do. That is not precision.
To make mine a sub-MOA shooter took:
Accuracy Systems harmonic barrel stabilizer with adjustable gas block. $235.
Accuracy Systems advanced trigger job (3.5 lb pull) with trigger pad. $130
Accuracy Systems recoil buffer and power spring. $33
Hand loading with a year of testing.

Then, you have to make decisions about scopes, because the stock sights can't do a KD. Period.
So, do you want to try to run Tech Sights?
(still won't work well for a KDAQT)
If not, you'll need to figure out a scope system.
After two years of testing, I landed on an Accuracy Systems 7.25" scope rail $90
With an Aim Sports 2-7 long eye relief range finder reticle. $80.
Interesting story about the scope. Discovered it by accident. They claim 8.5-10" eye relief. They lied. It's about 6", which combined with the Accuracy Systems scope rail made the PERFECT cheek weld. Sometimes you get lucky.
Oh, yeah, then there's the scope rings. Plan on another $130 for the correct Warne rings. Medium height. The cheaper ones (even the Less expensive Warne) are too short and the scope adjustments drag on the rail.
Oh, wait, then there's the sling.
Now, I can tell you with no hesitation that Tech Sights' 1" OD Green cotton sling for the Mini is just as good as a 1.25" milspec cotton. I have used it on several other rifles in CMP competitions - it is THAT good. The sling clip for the butt stock is, however, very whelming. It works, but I'm not sure how much tension it could take if you're capable of using full tension in standing hasty.

So after a lot of rambling, my point is that while the Mini 14 is a great platform for reliability (and a pleasure to shoot), you could buy two match grade AR's for the same cost as turning ONE Mini into a match grade or KD AQT gun.

In the end, I built a crazy stupid accurate Mini 14, mostly because I'm crazy, and maybe a little bit stupid. And I like wood.

[Herme]

Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling?  I couldn't think of difference between AR and other rifles for sling use?  Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.

[AJ Gonzales]

I don't recommend a Mini 14.
They are great rifles, for what they are intended to do. That is not precision.
To make mine a sub-MOA shooter took:
Accuracy Systems harmonic barrel stabilizer with adjustable gas block. $235.
Accuracy Systems advanced trigger job (3.5 lb pull) with trigger pad. $130
Accuracy Systems recoil buffer and power spring. $33
Hand loading with a year of testing.

Then, you have to make decisions about scopes, because the stock sights can't do a KD. Period.
So, do you want to try to run Tech Sights?
(still won't work well for a KDAQT)
If not, you'll need to figure out a scope system.
After two years of testing, I landed on an Accuracy Systems 7.25" scope rail $90
With an Aim Sports 2-7 long eye relief range finder reticle. $80.
Interesting story about the scope. Discovered it by accident. They claim 8.5-10" eye relief. They lied. It's about 6", which combined with the Accuracy Systems scope rail made the PERFECT cheek weld. Sometimes you get lucky.
Oh, yeah, then there's the scope rings. Plan on another $130 for the correct Warne rings. Medium height. The cheaper ones (even the Less expensive Warne) are too short and the scope adjustments drag on the rail.
Oh, wait, then there's the sling.
Now, I can tell you with no hesitation that Tech Sights' 1" OD Green cotton sling for the Mini is just as good as a 1.25" milspec cotton. I have used it on several other rifles in CMP competitions - it is THAT good. The sling clip for the butt stock is, however, very whelming. It works, but I'm not sure how much tension it could take if you're capable of using full tension in standing hasty.

So after a lot of rambling, my point is that while the Mini 14 is a great platform for reliability (and a pleasure to shoot), you could buy two match grade AR's for the same cost as turning ONE Mini into a match grade or KD AQT gun.

In the end, I built a crazy stupid accurate Mini 14, mostly because I'm crazy, and maybe a little bit stupid. And I like wood.

You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.

[Smallbore]

Depends on the AR. A1 configurations are fine, but some modern adjustable stock QD locations are really awkward.
If you're in a "compliance" state like California, one of the best stock options is a Thordsen, but its QD location is ergonomically horrifying, I ended up changing to one that mounts at the buttstock toe.

[Smallbore]

You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.

True, but a bone stock 580 or newer Mini is a 2-4 MoA gun on a good day depending on your ammo. And the sights are really bad. Tech Sights help out to maybe 300 yards.
Anything older, forget it. Once that barrel gets hot, barrel whip will sling the bullets 8 or more MoA without a barrel brace.

[Nightpoison]

Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling?  I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use?  Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.

My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.

I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.

[MattNH]

Michael - look into a NY compliant stock

Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling?  I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use?  Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.

My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.

I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.

[AJ Gonzales]

You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD.

True, but a bone stock 580 or newer Mini is a 2-4 MoA gun on a good day depending on your ammo. And the sights are really bad. Tech Sights help out to maybe 300 yards.
Anything older, forget it. Once that barrel gets hot, barrel whip will sling the bullets 8 or more MoA without a barrel brace.

Wait till you figure out the MOA standard for the M14...

Archer, not arrow.

[TimOren]

For score, I'll take an AR. Mine's a fairly generic build bought from another instructor. Scoped, and deliberately heavy with 3 full 'cheese grater' Pic rails on the fore-end so it balances sort of like my favorite to shoot...

A 1976 Springfield M1A match build. My eyes are not what they once were, so I'm running a Vortex scout scope instead of irons. (I'd have a Garand, but I'm a lefty shooter. Tried a friend's once, learned why everyone shot right handed in WWII.)

Both fed with handloads. The M1A likes it hot, 168 gr SMKs or Noslers with a near max load. Brutal on the brass but accurate. The AR (and my wife's, which is a custom light weight build) are happy with 55gr HPBTs with a middle of range load.

[Smallbore]

Wait till you figure out the MOA standard for the M14...

Archer, not arrow.

The archer needs a good bow, good arrows, and practice to be consistent.

Think of it this way, Morgan's Rifleman weren't really using period mil-spec, were they?

[Geek]

You have a wonderful problem.  Adding the to the collection always has me second-guessing on what to buy.  I gave up on the notion that one anything can solve a problem.  If all I have is one, it will fail and now I have none.  The applies to vehicles as it does firearms.  With that in mind, what can the budget afford usually helps thin my choices.  I have been blessed with a very understanding partner in shooting. She embraces the firearms purchases and usually expects me to buy 2 of something.  She likes having her own.  Again, that limits choices most of the time for me.

So, to answer the question of what do I shoot most for KD? AR10- 24" fluted, stainless, with a brake.  I prefer 168g ammo.  This lets me buck wind and put the rounds where I want them.  I run a lot of other firearms at KD events and keep returning to the AR10.  It is topped with a Vortex.  I had to give up iron sights over a year ago.  I use 10-round mags exclusively.  Someday I might give irons on the M1A or Garand a chance again. 

I have seen other people be successful with a lot of different rifles.  Stock AR15-A1 configurations, SKS, AK47, M1, M1A, SCAR, bolt-action <Mossberg, Remington, Savage>, fully customized AR platforms, mini14, and stuff I don't remember.  It can be done if you are proficient with what you have and it is capable of 4MOA shooting with you running it.

Good luck on your decision.  We all look forward to hearing what you selected, why you did, and how it worked at the event.

Geek

[Maine.Dist.Rifleman]

so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock.

It's kind of hard to diagnose stuff like this over the interwebs. Supposing you are a righty, your left elbow is not really supposed to be under the gun. It should be just to the left of the rifle and yes the magazine will bump into your left arm. The M1A and Mini 14 are exactly the same as the AR in that respect.

A lot depends on body type, but when people have issues with the prone position, it's typically that they are on their stomach, their shoulders are squared up to the target line and they are on their elbows. Not saying this is your issue, but it's what I see often.

I have not shot a KD Appleseed, but if I was going to do that I would use an AR as they are the most accurate & ergonomic rifles (even more so with a collapsible stock) I own.

Here are some images showing proper body positioning. Hope these help.

[Big John]

While the core teaching of Appleseed in the marksmanship department is functional, fundamental marksmanship in that a rack grade rifle, any time, anywhere; a rifleman can score effective level hits in the rifleman's quarter mile is true, one needs to pay attention to what is a rack grade rifle and remember that the 4 MOA standard is the shooter and the rifle as a combined system.

A 5 MOA rifle combined with a shooter who can shoot a benchrest-like 0 MOA on his end will yield a 80% hit rate in our 4 MOA target, assuming an even distribution, thus qualifying.

A 2 MOA rifle, which is what I would consider rack grade, would allow 2.5 MOA from the shooter for qualifying, and 2 MOA for perfect.

I would submit that the first one is less fun than the second one. The simple answer to what is your KD rifle of choice, for me, is a rifle that you find fun. It is a rifle with which you can qualify, and a rifle with which you can realize improvement. It is a rifle that has a sighting system that is repeatable with meaningful adjustability and with which you can execute the rifleman's challenges of target identification, range estimation, and see some flora for wind estimation. Most importantly, it is a rifle with which you can feel effective, as it will get you out to the range, both on your own, and with Appleseed shoots, more than a rifle that you both do not like and do not like your results. Lastly, it is a rifle which will give you meaningful data. It is easier to track improvement from 4 MOA groups to 2 MOA groups than it is to improve from 8 MOA to 4 MOA (provided you are the same shooter, and simply shooting a better rifle) as you will have to provide a refrigerator box to find your shots in the latter configuration (while shooting at range).

I find there is a sweet spot for a KD rifle that is effective, but not too effective with high price or fragility. I own a Mosin-Nagant. I will try to qualify with it, but I will also bring another rifle. Were I to go with the Mosin as my only rifle as a student to a KD for the first time, I would be frustrated. On the other hand, I don't need a PRC rifle either.

[stoneknives]

"You don't need a sub MOA rifle for KD."

YUP!

Good ammo (that you gun likes), practice, good rifle. Everything don't need to be expensive or fancy.

A 20in standard model Palmetto State Ar is what I shoot the most, scope x4 Monstrum with adj AO (100$), Irons stock A2 GI with a shim and a smaller peep for my 65year old eyes (believe it's a White Oak 75$). Ammo 62gr Wolf HP or 75 gr Hornady Steel Match.

Go to the range with a plan and shoot your plan. Make sure you are giving your shooting 100% of your concentration. Stop when your concentration slips. Take a break or go home. Don't fall into the I'll just shoot up this last x amount of ammo. Your brain will remember the last 25 rounds of crap you threw down range not the 200 great round you did before.

H

[codyClemonade]

If your aversion to ARs is the pistol grip and stock, have you seen the FightLight SCR lowers/rifles? They seem super expensie but it's a niche market.

Haven't tried one, so can't speak to the reliability of that buffer system, but it seems neat.

[mmirate]

A couple other things have come to my mind in the past few months.

1. The magazine itself. For any kind of prone shooting other than "mag-podding", my long arms and I use twenty-rounders (and similarly sized rimfire mags, see my profile photo), but a flush-fit ten-rounder's floorplate could be a usable support-hand position for whomever it fits, especially combined with SCR-style lowers where the trigger is often rearwards of milspec.

2. LOP. To get correct (NTCH) turkey-neck on my ARs, I use an A2 stock or a fully-extended M4-style stock. I know you need less LOP than I do - so you do collapse your stock down a few clicks, right? If your nose isn't touching the charging handle then you definitely have room to make this adjustment (and adjust your scope to the correct position).

[P7]

I love (and prefer) the M1 Garand.  As long as your eyesight is good enough to bring the front sight blade into focus, and your target line has adequate backers so that you can distinguish the silhouette from the background, I'd take the M1 Garand anytime.  And .30-06 will have fewer issues than a .308 conversion.

I've been shooting the M1 since the early 1990s when I got my first one from the DCM.  My "shooter" is on its third barrel (you can expect a Garand barrel to maintain pretty good accuracy for several thousand rounds. I waited a bit long the first time (~7k rounds) before replacing mine due to expanding groups.  5k rounds is probably a better estimate of barrel life.

If you do get an M1 Garand, here are my recommendations for reference books: 

I think every Garand owner should have the owner's guide, at a minimum:

M1 Garand Owner's Guide

Baumgardner's book is out of print but well worth finding a copy, as it has tips and tricks to make the M1 more accurate.  Several of these are pretty simple and don't require any special tools:

Precision Shooting with the M1 Garand

The shop manual has very detailed information on parts, dimensions, and tolerances as well as proper function, and is very helpful in troubleshooting. It also has detailed information on regulating the sights.  This book includes the M14/M1A as well as the Garand:

U.S. .30 Caliber Service Rifles Shop Manual

There are many others, mainly collector-oriented references that enrich your understanding of the rifle's history.  But the above are the references I recommend specifically for a "shooter".

Note: The Duff and Kuhnhausen books are also available for the M1 Carbine.

Note on Photo:  June 6, 2021 (D-Day!) - my first Rifleman score after back surgery (all my Rifleman scores have been with the M1).  I use this target as a teaching aid for NPOA.  Guess which silhouette in Stage 4 I failed to reacquire and confirm NPOA?  Cost me 24 points, and thus a possible distinguished score.

[AdmiralKirk]

Before I turned 40: Colt SP1 circa 1977 production. 

After I turned 40: Colt A4 w/Leupold Mk5 HD or a Colt 6940 w/ACOG

[MattNH]

I put together a rifle using an Anderson lower and upper with Anderson parts kits from the LGS. Used a 20" Anderson barrel, Samson hand guard, A2 stock, Leupold Freedom 1.5-4x20, and USGI sling.  Shooting PMC X-Tac 5.56 55gr, because that is what it liked best of the factory ammo I tested, and it worked.  I shot 43/50 hits count at our KD in August. My kid medaled at the CMP New England games in September with it in the Service Rifle GSMM event, Modern Military Unlimited.  He shot 276/300 (needed 275) and I wound up with a 274 with two misses standing because I am an idiot.

Using the 1.5-4x20 set at 4x at 400 yards at the KD was a challenge for me, I would have liked more magnification. I picked up a 20" Green Mountain (Conway, NH) barrel on sale this past summer and over the winter will get a lower, upper and bcg from Matrix Arms (Claremont, NH) and another Samson (Keene, NH) handguard for a new KD rifle.  Will likely add a Vortex Diamondback 3-9x40 or 4-12x40 and the Magpul SL stock.
 

[Fulcrum]

If your aversion to ARs is the pistol grip and stock, have you seen the FightLight SCR lowers/rifles? They seem super expensie but it's a niche market.

Haven't tried one, so can't speak to the reliability of that buffer system, but it seems neat.

I'm interested in exploring this option when it's time for me to graduate from rimfire and get a new rifle. I'm in CA, so I'm thinking this might be a good featureless option.

[DEH]

M25 Enhanced Battle Rifle

[Fulcrum]

Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling?  I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use?  Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.

My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.

I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.

Have you considered any of the modern ranch-type rifles based on AR-type actions? I started a thread on the topic with a few different models I have questions about. My main reason is most AR features are banned here, so pistol grips are out, but these designs might also help with your ergonomics issues. Here is the thread. https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=68849.0

[B.C.]

Back to the original thread question posed:

224 valkyrie with 88g hand loads, 24" barrel. Aka, the laser beam. Slightly different holds needed with BSZ vrs 556. 100% no need to twiddle knobs. This would be my go to. Secondary would be 6.5 grendel. I'm old and don't want to tote around a heavy AR10 all day.......

[Nightpoison]

I've been haunting the M14 forum lately looking at M21/M25 builds.

M25 Enhanced Battle Rifle

[Nightpoison]

Thanks for the link, while they are an interesting option, they do not look good. Haha. Anyone sell the receiver/stock separate? I wouldn't be opposed to building one out with my own parts if that is even an option.

Just curious for the dislike of AR with a sling?  I couldn't think of a difference between AR and other rifles for sling use?  Except for the synthetic no pulse slings they all feel the same to me.

My aversion to the AR platform for sling is the ergonomics for the prone position mainly. With the pistol grip further underneath the rifle than a standard rifle stock, it naturally holds the rifle a little higher off the ground. I have arms on the shorter side, so getting my elbow under the rifle is a little harder as my arms are pulled in tighter towards the magazine, which my arm and sling bump into. So, even after experimenting, I can't get the elbow under the rifle as well as a standard stock. Sitting is easier, as the elbows are out over the news. Standing is again difficult, but better than prone.

I'm exceptionally more comfortable with a standard rifle stock. where the grip is only slightly lower than the rifle barrel.

Have you considered any of the modern ranch-type rifles based on AR-type actions? I started a thread on the topic with a few different models I have questions about. My main reason is most AR features are banned here, so pistol grips are out, but these designs might also help with your ergonomics issues. Here is the thread. https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=68849.0