Rimfire Known Distance with Irons

[Charles McKinley]

My two cents buy a 20 MOA rail.  I'm partial to EGW but Kidd and DIP are all about the same price.

As the gentleman from Maine pointed out tech sights are hard to keep track of where you are when making adjustments.

Pick your path and follow it.  A Rifleman persists!

[Irons2]

Step 1:

based on the dimensions given of 9-1/4" x 12-5/8" for RFKD target, i scaled that in half to hang at 100y. Those are the targets on the right. 6 o clock hold on top target (seemed just as fuzzy as stage 4 at a 25m event) and landed on target below that.

moved to the AQT on left, 6 o clock hold on stage 1. had a known flyer to the right.

i think this would be good enough to give irons a shot.

Step 2:

now I just to look into where im at with adjustments and figure out where ill need to be for KD.

[Yates]

Step 1:

based on the dimensions given of 9-1/4" x 12-5/8" for RFKD target, i scaled that in half to hang at 100y. Those are the targets on the right. 6 o clock hold on top target (seemed just as fuzzy as stage 4 at a 25m event) and landed on target below that.

moved to the AQT on left, 6 o clock hold on stage 1. had a known flyer to the right.

i think this would be good enough to give irons a shot.

Step 2:

now just to look into see where im at with adjustments and figure out where ill need to be for KD.

Interestingly enough, the Stage 1 target on an AQT is the same size as the 100 yd KD target, which is what you created.  And it should have looked exactly like a stage 4 target.  What you created was a 1/4 scale full distance target.  So at 100 yards, it would look like stage 4, which is a representation of a full distance target @ 400 yds (1/4 scale at 1/4 the distance).

Thus at a 200 yard KD, the target is 1/2 scale of a full size target, but you are at 1/2 the distance.  So it should look like stage 4 again.  Of course, things get a bit more fuzzy with distance, but otherwise it should look the same.  So I think you should be able to at least see the target, just as you did at 100 yards.

Now only ballistics and wind are in your way.  It is certainly doable.  (PS - watch dragging wood.  There is definitely some horizontal stringing going on, or it could have been the wind.)

[Irons2]

Yeah I noticed the side to side of the impacts. Literally on lunch break got there, threw everything out, waited for the line to go cold, ran down, hung the target, came back, ripped 5 off, borrowed someones spotting scope, sent 5 more, threw everything in the truck and left. I would expect it to tighten up a bit, but it couldve been the wind I guess.

I did get to introduce appleseed to a couple older gentlemen who were there though. They had a lot of questions when i laid my mat down between the shooting benches, didnt have a scope, and put the sling around my arm. They asked if i was shooting nationals. Told them I was trying to get an event at the shooting club in the near future.

[Geek]

I forgot to drop an update for the distance.  While at the range for the 5/4-5 25M event, I checked out the options for RFKD.  We WILL be shooting 200y for the Jonesboro, IN Oct 12-13 event. 

[Burnett]

I get wanting to use irons, because "DA** IT! I'm not that old!", but...
Except for rings, this'd get you set up nicely at not a bad price really.

Nice Vortex scope at a good price.
20 MOA EGW Rail.

[Gus]

Im doing a RFKD in October. Ive completed ~5 or 6 25m events with irons on my 10/22. Id like to try irons for the KD as well but I dont know that Ill have the range of adjustment required with tech sights. I reach out to them and there response is below.

"The TSR200 rear sight has approximately 35MOA elevation adjustment on the rear sight, and approximately 20MOA elevation adjustment on the front sight.  The rear sight will have approx. 45MOA of windage adjustment. 

This is assuming the 10/22 has the standard barrel length of 18-1/2"." 

I can tell the way my irons are setup now im not dead center with windage, so I would be limited in one direction. Im guessing because of my head position on the stock. but also dont want to have to play with both front and rear sights to get the amount of adjustment I need.

I do have the viridian scope that came with the 22 and if it is recommended I use that, is that sufficient for a RFKD or should i upgrade a bit? I see theyre for sale on the appleseed website, but didnt know if anyone has any issues with them and would recommend to get the most out of the KD upgrading it.

Thanks

Irons2,

I did a lot of rimfire KD shooting this year in Idaho where I had the luxury of time and space. To be sure this was all unofficial, I was by myself and was able to take my time, make adjustments and stay relaxed. I did follow the time rules for Standing, sitting, rapid prone and slow prone. Because of this thread I wanted to see for myself how doable this was.

In short, it is very doable to score well with an open sight (Tech Sights) 10/22.  I did a side by side comparison of two of my Liberty Training rifles. A 18.5" Basic Ruger 10/22 with the TSR100 rear sight and a 22" 10/22 with the TSR200 rear sight.

For what it's worth I'm 61 years old and recently got a new pair of glasses! I am still able to see iron/open sights quite well.

I had two targets going at the same time. I did a 100 yard KD first and scored 44/50 with the Basic 10/22 and 45/50 with the 22" 10/22. I went with CCI Mini Mag RN for both rifles. Both rifles like it and it's about 175 fps faster than CCI Standard Velocity. I have a lot of confidence in CCI ammo. All my 10/22s like it and it seldom malfunctions in a clean, lubricated rifle. For all my KDs I fired 50 rounds.

Since I had good come ups for 50 and 100 yards, the 200 yard KDs progressed quickly. At 150 yards everything was fine for both rifles. I prefer the  six o'clock hold.

And then, at 200, the TSR100 equipped 18.5" 10/22 front sight ran out of elevation-it was bottomed out-and my group at 200 was about a foot low. My work around was to hold at the top of the target frame and let the bullets drop into the black. It almost worked. I guess the front sight obscured the target and I missed several a bit left and right. Scored a 39/50.

The TSR200 was just fine. With the front sight bottomed out, I had plenty of elevation on the rear sight to stay with my six o'clock hold. But, just so you know, by the time I got to 200 yards, the TSR200 only had another few clicks in it! On the first attempt with the 22" I scored a 41/50. On my second attempt with the 22" I put it all together and managed a 50/50. There was one shot in the upper left that only nicked the black, but, a nick it is.  I fairly floated back to the camper that day! It was very unofficial, but it made me happy just the same.

Another thing about the TSR200: On mine, I had to hold the rear aperture with my left thumb and forefinger when using the elevation adjustment tool with my right hand. In this way the adjustment would actually raise the rear aperture in height. Otherwise mechanism was simply spinning around and not elevating. I don't know if all TSR200 sights do this, but mine does.

So, and this is my opinion, the TSR200 rear sight and CCI Mini-Mags are the way to go when shooting a rimfire KD with open sighted Liberty training rifle.

BTW, my 'firing line' was my truck bed! The Snake River Plain of southern Idaho had a lot of moisture in the spring and how the grass did grow. I needed to get above that so, the truck bed served me well!

Good Luck in your October KD!!!

In Liberty,

Gus

[Irons2]

Thanks for the info gus. As you said sounds like it should be doable. I talked my rifleman buddy into switching to irons for the rfkd and we went out this morning to try it out at 100y. He laughed when he saw the sight picture at first but ended up having decent groups after a few magazines. Same with me. I'm confident my eye sight and irons won't be the issue, we should do well.

Looking forward to a new set of instructions and challenges.

[Mrs. Smith]

Desert_diver can weigh in on this, having successfully completed a 200y RKD this very weekend with an iron sighted bolt action rifle.

[desert_diver]

Irons2,

It's definitely a challenge to shoot irons at a 200 yd RKD, but it is not impossible.  Gus's comment about using a 6 o'clock hold is good advice.  I used a COT hold, which made getting the right sight picture difficult.  My front sight post is 6 MOA, just the width of the target at 200 yds - anything wider would have been quite difficult

Your fundamentals (NPOA, 6 Steps, and SHFs) have to be great. I got humbled on a few of the AQTs, which was excellent motivation. 

I recommend the challenge.

Thanks,
Desert_Diver

[desert_diver]

Irons2,

One additional thought.  Depending on the backer color, the paper Morgan's Shingle could be very difficult to see.  Take every opportunity to study the target line prior to shooting the shingle so you have a sense of where to look.

Desert_Diver

[Irons2]

Another thing I forgot to try before is a hood over the front and rear sights. Ive had to do this before at 25m events in low or bright light conditions and it helped tremendously. When we shot just this past weekend it was overcast and I was having trouble focusing. Tried to up the size of the rear aperture from #4 to #6 to see if that would help but it didnt.

[Irons2]

Irons2,

One additional thought.  Depending on the backer color, the paper Morgan's Shingle could be very difficult to see.  Take every opportunity to study the target line prior to shooting the shingle so you have a sense of where to look.

Desert_Diver

Thanks for the heads up, thats a good point. My buddy and I had questions on what everything will look like and trying to think of things to bring to prepare. Much appreciated.

[Irons2]

Update:

Had a blast at the RFKD this past weekend. The shingle was no joke with no backer but I managed to hit it. We had little to no wind impact as it tended to be blowing from behind us. My highest AQT score was 36/50. Unfortunately on that one I did have a jam which cost me 4 rounds on stage 2  . The following AQTs I only got worse and Im not totally sure why. I would follow my DOPE but it would be off by a few MOA and typically off the target and not scoring. Two times I had this happen. One time I figured I was aiming low but the data was good so Ill maintain my DOPE. Onto the next stage and still low (like I missed a few clicks...but man I was paying attention when I adjusted). The second time I said I must have missed a couple clicks like last time so Ill adjust back to what should be zero on what I just shot and then continue my come up to the next stage.....still low. I managed to bring it back to a 31 for the last AQT. But Im going to cycle through the adjustments and distances a few times up and down and see if it happens again and see if I can figure out why.

Learned a lot. I have a paragraph of prep to do before the next RFKD. Reminds me of my first 25m, once I figured out what it was and what I was doing I prepped for a month before my next event and rifleman'd my first AQT. I feel Ill do much better my next time around.

Appreciate all the input and I did have plenty of adjustment in my sights. I never even touched the front one.

- After thinking about it more, we would get dope in prone but I would shoot the AQT in seated. Do you think that could make a difference? Sight picture "should" be the same, but even off by a hair translated to 100y would be a couple MOA. I dont know, any suggestions?

[Yates]

Sounds like you did a great job - congrats!  In my experience, at 100 yards you will see a difference in the zero prone versus seated.  About 1 MOA lower in my case, but of course your mileage may vary.  Take it out to the range and see.

[Eagle Keeper]

Another thing I forgot to try before is a hood over the front and rear sights. Ive had to do this before at 25m events in low or bright light conditions and it helped tremendously. When we shot just this past weekend it was overcast and I was having trouble focusing. Tried to up the size of the rear aperture from #4 to #6 to see if that would help but it didnt.

I use rear sight inserts to adjust the amount of light & let me focus on the front sight clearly. I also like to size the hole in the rear sight so it's slightly bigger than the front globe to help with sight alignment.