.22LR subsonic better than standard velocity?

[ax238]

NOTE>>  this post was moved from general discussion to here in reloading<<<

I actually read this article while in Denver Int. Airport on the way home from vacation so I didn't buy the mag but got enough interest to make a post about this.  I am posting this as a new topic here instead of a add-on direction change of the LTR discussion.

I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo.  They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity.  Anyone have any experience with this?  I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.
It was a really good article, thorough and point proving so I just wanted to kinda start a discussion about this really.  Any takers?

Ax 

[wtr100]

seems to me  most (all?) match .22lr is subsonic

As I recall it's the transition from Super to Sub sonic that causes the 'trouble' however in a 4moa game I doubt most would notice the difference.

FWIW I really like the Rem SubSonic hollow points

[ax238]

I think the article was presenting the arguement that is the bullet stayed below the speed of sound that is did not experience the effects of transitioning from sub to super -sonic effects.  The arguement was the better groups they were getting with each brand of ammo that was subsonic than the standard velocity ammo.  And, hey, I am all for it if I get better groups and better performance.  Especially when I am going to the Evansville Appleseed this October and gearing for a rifleman's badge! 

The reason I posted this was to see whether anyone had any actual experience with this, or had even given it a thought?  Since many are building (like myself) or already have a LTR and are transitioning to .22LR for serious practise,  It was my thoughts that this would be another step in the process of the evolving LTR here on/in the RWVA of learning and producing rifleman results. 

Anyone with experience please fess up as I am out of .22LR as of yesterday and about to purchase a decent amount off .22 very soon.

Ax

[VAshooter]

Serious competition shooters worry about this stuff. A lot of supersonic target ammo is going subsonic just before it reaches the target. The cure is to shoot subsonic ammo but you need to test it in your rifle to see what kind of groups  you get. If you are a A class international shooter and have a spot on the Olympic Team you need to worry about things like this.  If you paid less than $2000 for your 22 rifle. Don't even think about it. Just buy what functions well in your rifle.

Doug in Virginia

[Nickle]

OK, a few points here.

First, the problem is going from super-sonic to sub-sonic. If was the other way to, the World Record group would NOT be held by a high velocity cartridge. The current record 100 meter 5 shot group in one particular Bench Rest class is 0.061", and was shot by a friend and local shooter in 1981. That's pretty SMALL. I can pretty much tell you beyond any doubt, he was using a 6mm PPC, and he and his brother aren't known for shooting LIGHT loads. Besides, there really isn't a true transition from sub-sonic to super-sonic, as that happens in the barrel.

Secondly, you will NEED to review the ballistics for your particular ammo to see if it is above or below super-sonic at 25 meters. That's only 82 feet, and it is likely that the velocity of standard ammo is still super-sonic at that distance, if it even was at the muzzle. I'll get to some info at the end of this.

Thirdly, the speed of sound is 1128 ft per second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Fourthly, what really matters is results, and there are more factors than velocity transition that will affect accuracy. Quality control during manufacture is one at the top of the list You should try small amounts of each ammo to see which is more accurate in YOUR rifle. Then, go with that info.

Lastly, some food for thought:

CCI Standard Velocity ammo, 1070 fps mv, 977 fps at 50 yards.

CCI Green Tag Target amm is the same velocities as above.

CCI MiniMag HV ammo, 1235 fps mv, 1092 at 50 yards.

CCI 22 CB Long ammo, 710 fps mv, 656 at 50 yards.

Winchester Super-X 40 gr RN ammo, 1255 fps mv, 1017 at 100 yards.

Winchester Super-X 37 gr HP ammo, 1280 fps mv, 1015 at 100 yards.

Winchester Xpert 46 gr HP ammo, 1220 fps mv, 956 at 100 yards.

Winchester Super-X 40 gr RN, standard velocity ammo, 1150 fps mv, 976 at 100 yards.

Federal Premium Gold Medal, 1080 fps mv, 994 at 50 yards.

Federal Premium Gold Medal, 1200 fps mv, 1075 at 50 yards.

Federal Premium Copper Plated HP, 1260 fps mv, 1104 at 50 yards.

I could go on, but, see a pattern here?

That Federal ammo that starts out about 1200 fps and above, stays super-sonic at 25 meters plus some.

That and better quality control might make it more accurate.

I see Doug just weighed in, and I agree with most of that. I actually have a .22 rifle that cost less than $2K that can make use of the better ammo.

I'll close with a morsel of thought. Don't try to equipment shop to improve your groups, until you've fixed the "nut behind the buttplate". Get yourself up to speed first, before trying to tweak your equipment excessively. Yes, if you have a 10/22, make the recommended modifications to it, but, remember, what you're REALLY doing is putting it back to the way they made them 40 years ago (except the sights, of course). That's right, my Remington 513T doesn't need the trigger lightened, the mag release lengthened or any of that. Even if it was a non-target model, the mag release and trigger would be OK as is.

[Old Dog]

My  10/22 will shoot 5/8" groups at 25 yds. (prone) with Remington Golden Bullets and my poor eyesight.
The rifle is stock except for Tech Sights and the 1 & 1/4" web sling.  Factory white wood stock, factory trigger and internals, factory barrel, etc.

5/8" is plenty good enough for an AQT.  Like VA Shooter (he's got more shooting experience than I'll ever have) says, buy what shoots best in your rifle that's worth the groups you get.  If you can shoot 1" groups with $12 a brick .22 ammo why buy $21 a brick .22 ammo to shoot 5/8" groups when the score's not different?  Buy more ammo, practice more and improve your skills.

My experience is that most of the "match" quality guns and ammo are bought by people who really doen't see (on paper at the range) the benefit of what they spent their money on.  Don't try to buy better scores, earn 'em through practice, perserverance and more practice.  If you do that, one day you'll be good enough you'll be able to use that "match" quality rifle and ammo that costs so much money.

[ax238]

Now we are talking!  Now that is information I can use.  Thanks, that is what I was hoping to get, information.   I plan using just like was posted, all factory except the sights and sling. 

[Old Dog]

A service rifle with a match trigger?  How many "rack grade main battle rifles" have a target trigger?  I've only fired one 10/22 so I don't know if mines better or worse than average I just know that it's my belief that a part of "learning" your rifle will get you to the point where you really won't notice that trigger much one way or the other.  The slack (loose slop at the beginning of the trigger squeeze) shouldn't matter because you only take it up once or twice during a stage (preparing for that first shot of the magazine).  Creep (that worse distance the trigger moves between the end of slack and the "bang") can be harder to deal with if its bad enough but I believe practice with that (poor??) trigger will still improve your shooting.  The beauty of that .22 is the cheap practice and lots of it!  500 rnds. of practice for the cost of 20 rnds. of .308.  The greatest deal on earth!  Get to an Appleseed, get those basics, go home, practice (a lot, its cheap, remember) and before you know it you'll be shooting rifleman scores with such regularity that you'll be looking for the next challege - becoming an instructor and teach what you learned to others. 

[Mark Davis]

Most rifles shoot better than the guy carrying them.

[TwoGlock]

NOTE>>  this post was moved from general discussion to here in reloading<<<

I actually read this article while in Denver Int. Airport on the way home from vacation so I didn't buy the mag but got enough interest to make a post about this.  I am posting this as a new topic here instead of a add-on direction change of the LTR discussion.

I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo.  They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity.  Anyone have any experience with this?  I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.
It was a really good article, thorough and point proving so I just wanted to kinda start a discussion about this really.  Any takers?

Ax 

I have done a lot of experimenting with different 22 rifles and ammunition.   I haven't done an exact count but currently have in excess of a dozen different brands/types of 22 ammo.

My opinion is that the "heat" comment between subsonic, standard, Hi Velocity, or Hyper Velocity in 22 LR is a non issue.

The more powder you burn (the faster you push the bullet) the more noise you are going to make.  The speed of sound in air at 70 degrees F is about 1128 fps.   Below this speed in general I describe the sound as POW.  Above this speed I describe it as BANG!

Relating group size, the two most important factors are the quality of the bullet and the quality of the barrel and crown.

A good quality barrel will shoot what the average shooter considers "great" groups with almost any bullet.

A poor quality barrel is usually very picky about which bullet will group descent.

My two sons & two grandsons visit frequently and to assure I have enough guns I have several Ruger 10/22's.

Two of these prefer CCI Standard (a subsonic round at a velocity of 1070 fps) and will shoot 10 round groups at 100 yards that average less than 2".

One will average 5" groups at 100 yards with the same CCI Standard but will average 2 ½" with CCI mini mag.

Another will not shoot less than 4" groups with anything other than some variation of Ely, Ely Standard being the best (brown box and also sub sonic at 1050 fps).  With the Ely standard it will shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yards all day long that are 2" or less.

I have used Remington Subsonic HP and Ely Subsonic HP for pest control in my Remington 541.  The only testing I have done has been at 50 yards with this combination.  Groups average about 1" with either in the Remington 541.   They are not magic, but are quieter than High Speed HP ammo.

Just because one ammo groups well in my gun or in a gun testers gun of the same make as yours DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL GROUP WELL IN YOURS.

Hope this helps.

[Bravo]

In my 22s, standard velocity rounds (subsonic) are in general more accurate than the high velocity rounds.

The one that stands out in my boy's rifle is the CCI blue label standard velocity. The one that stands out in my K22 Outdoorsmans Masterpiece is the CCI CB (WAY subsonic). The one that stood out in my rifle was the CCI green label standard velocity.

I did have a pistol that loved hypervelocity rounds, but I think it was the exception to the rule that proves it LOL!

I bought a bunch of Remington subsonic ammo, thinking it would be as good as the CCI but for less money - none of my sticks preferred it, so I don't believe it's as much the 'subsonic is better than high velocity' as it is 'use what your stick likes the best'. Even so, since it just so happens that mine like subsonic ammo better, I think that's a trend - and why I said 'in general'.

That having been said, since CCI is more expensive, I typically run either Federal or Winchester bulk ammo through the sticks. It's not as accurate, but more than plenty accurate for field position use. Think of it this way..... $10 will buy 550 rounds of Federal, or 200 rounds of CCI - and I can't shoot the difference reliably from field positions.

On the mythical sonic transition, that's bunk. Look at Bisley, England. If anyone believes a 303 is supersonic at 1600 yards, I've got a bridge to sell them. Certainly you gain significant improvement in long range accuracy from maintaining a velocity greater than the speed of sound, but the myth that a bullet loses stability when slowing to subsonic velocities is proven to be bunk.

FWIW, a friend of mine is a big Sharps shooter. He, and one of his buddies, took a sniper course with their sticks - 45 caliber Sharps. I asked the instructor how they did, and he was impressed with the long-range accuracy of those sticks, and in particular the fact that they were so accurate at 1K. Since those 45 caliber round-nosed slugs were moving out with a muzzle velocity of about 1800 fps, I'm betting they were more than plenty subsonic at 1K. Even so, he did comment on the authoritative whack they'd sound from the iron maidens - no question about a hit or not LOL!

[Old Dog]

Years ago I read an article that said right at the time of the introduction of smokeless powder (around the late 1880's, early 1990's) the best black powder rifle marksmen of that day could put 10 shots into a 12" circle at 1000 yds.  The mid range trajectory for some of these rounds was right at 55 feet. 

Yup, it's slow.  Yup, it takes a long time to get there.  Yup, that big bullet packs a wallop, even that slow.

[scopeboy001]

for most back-yard situations i find sub-sonic rounds {namely the 22.CB} from CCI out of a 28 inch or longer barrel are not only extremely accurate at short to mid range, but they generally make no audible noise other than the sound of the guns action working, and the impact of the round as it hits the target. and as far as their effect on any game-animal they always seem to drop as if hit in the head with a steel pipe. in my experience i would not hesitate to call the sub-sonic 22.LR cartridge the 12ga slug of the small game world!

[JohnCBobcat]

Yep, as Nickle noted, the reason for subsonic .22lr and Black Powder loads (like the old .45-70 Gov't) being more accurate is that they don't go back down to subsonic speeds from supersonic speeds.
That's the part that messes with a bullet's flight. And the reason that even though M14 and M1 sights go to 1000m/yd and then some, with standard 147gr (7.62) or 150gr (.30-06) ammunition, you won't get the the 3-4 MOA at 1k that you could expect at a "mere" 500 or 600 yds.
Also the reason that 800yd match shooters load the heaviest bullets they can and push them as fast as they can go, hence .300WM with 190gr+ BTHPs running at near-on 3000fps MV to get to 1000 yards. Those bullets will retain their velocity pretty darn well, and they start with as much velocity over the speed of sound that can be safely attained, for a wider margin of accurate range.

[Snake45]

Here is my standard advice for choosing .22 ammo:

Start with the cheapest ammo you can find and work your way up the price list. When you find an ammo that YOU think is delivering accuracy worth the price you're paying for it, you've found YOUR ammo!

You can pay 2c a shot for .22 ammo or you can pay 10c a shot or more for it. You probably won't find that the 10c a shot stuff shoots groups one-fifth the size of the 2c a shot stuff.

BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!

[Atlas Shrug]

BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!

That is often the case.  However they won't always do it.  Low cost can be correlated to low quality control.  Thus periodically you'll have more fliers than with a significantly higher priced target or match ammo.

This is the dirty little secret that few talk about when bragging on how well their cheap .22 ammo shoots. 

If you can live with these little surprises, then things are great.  When you can't (ie match shooters, etc.), then you buy higher quality ammo that also shows the accuracy that you need.  Then you'll get consistent, predictable, good performance.

.22s are so much fun, yet quite enigmatic....

[Snake45]

BTW, I tested the five cheapest kinds of .22 ammo I could find, and they ALL delivered 1 MOA accuracy at 25 yards or better out of an Anschutz 64!

That is often the case.  However they won't always do it.  Low cost can be correlated to low quality control.  Thus periodically you'll have more fliers than with a significantly higher priced target or match ammo.

Well, I've been testing and periodically re-testing these five kinds of ammo since 2004, and I've actually found each to be very consistent as far as what you can expect in accuracy. If a particular gun/ammo combination is going to throw flyers, there will be a fairly consistent number of them lot to lot.

I've only noticed two exceptions to this. I got hold of one lot of Federal Walmart Bulks that was notably more accurate than every other lot of it I've ever shot. And I had one lot of Winchester Dynapoints (purchased from an internet wholesaler and not a local retailer) that was slightly but measurably less accurate in certain of my very accurate rifles than all the rest of them I've tested.

IMHO, almost any .22 rifle/ammo combination is "accurate enough" for quality practice, unless you are a very, very good shooter. I shoot a lot from standing (because I think if you can improve your standing, your other positions will follow) and can tell you that I can shoot a series of targets with one of my "most accurate" rifle/ammo combos, and a series with a combo that is only good for groups about twice as large, and if I showed you both series of targets, you'd be very hard pressed to tell which had been shot with which gun.

[scopeboy001]

if u are looking for high accuracy at a generally low expense per round, i think that all of u guys have the right caliber but are using the wrong bullet.
     if your looking for a good relatively steady velocity along with accuracy and fair price, i personally prefer the 22 Win Mag   {AKA. 22WMR for u that don't know}   

I have found it to be the PERFECT round to just reach out and touch something.  be it either targets, coyotes, or foxes. the end result is always the same,-  a nice little hole placed right where i want it. 

[Junior Birdman]

  The problem with .22 WMR is that it requires a whole 'nuther rifle. 

  Lots of folks already have a .22LR, so that's why the discussion of such.

  I hold that for the kind of shooting we do at Appleseeds, any cheap, fairly acurate, reliable ammo will suffice. My LTR uses the cheap stuff and will do 4MOA day in and day out, and that's better than I can shoot, day in and day out. 

[Old Dog]

not sure what 22 mag ammo costs these days but i'll bet it's not too much cheaper than .223 reloads.

I know an old guy that's killed hundreds of squirrels over the years with .22 shorts.  A shot to the head puts 'em away.  He's told me more than once that on the rare occasion that he misses the squirrels usually keep gnawing on that hickory nut and he gets 'em with the second shot.

Don't know what shorts cost these days or how hard they are to come by.  And until someone can explain why that old guy's Savage M29 doesn't have a burnt out spot in the chamber from shooting shorts in it I'll not believe the old wives tale about shorts ruining a LR chamber.  In fact the rifle states (on the barrel) that it is good for shorts, longs and long rifles.

[Nickle]

.22 WMR (AKA .22 Magnum) ammo isn't real cheap, and is going to dry up sooner or later.

I'm not saying it isn't good. Too many deer jackers up my way prefer it, because it gets the job done, and is fairly quiet (enough to not raise interest).

For a small game hunting round, it's good. More open areas of the country call for a centerfire, but only because the distances are further. A coyote shot up my way is from 100 to 300 yards (or more). The .22 Mag will work at 100, but before 300, it's going to run out of steam. More urban states, like Southern New England, different story, the ranges are much shorter. This is where the .22 Mag pays off, for a hunting round.

As to Appleseed use, check the price of .22 LR (bulk packs) versus .22 Mag versus .223. You are going to need to plan on 500 rounds for an Appleseed. $10 is HARD to beat for 2 days worth of ammo.

.22 Shorts is another issue. The irony is that .22 LR ammo can be bought CHEAPER than .22 Short ammo. That's simply due to .22 LR being available in bulk boxes.

[KodyJaret]

Getting back to the original question that started this thread,,,
I've tried two or three brands of subsonic ammo. Most expierience is w/ Remington,,,I've found all that I've tried quite accurate. Are they in general better than higher velocity stuff ? I don't think so. The last couple years I've been hunting w/  CCI Velocitors and found them as accurate as anything I've tried in the 22s' I usually shoot. The Winchester PowerPoints shoot very well, as did their old SuperSilhouette.
For bulk 22, the CCI Blazer has always performed well.

Like the man said,,,at these prices, you can afford to try any number of different offerings and see what makes a winning combination. Then their is always the anomaly of a particulatly good or bad lot.

[MrBill]

Warning: comments from a recovering BR shooter 

While I agree (mostly) that you can't buy your AQT score, I do think you can help yourself on the way by making sure your rifle/ammo/trigger combination works well.  I was scoring low 200s at my first AS with 10/22 with a pretty mediocre barrel.  After that I spent a bit of time dry firing and getting into position, but I also bought a reasonably good barrel ( just a Volquartsen, not a Hart or Krieger) and bedded my barrel for 3 inches (OK it was bedded with a thin piece of cardboard in front of the action block but it works).  I also spent a little time at the bench (I know that is an evil word on this sight but can be very useful to eliminate variables) picking ammo.  Tried several types from Walley world Federal fodder up to Eley Tenex.  I found a modestly priced Aguila standard velocity that shot very well and posted one 5 shot group of 0.080" at 25 yards and averaged about 0.120".  This is what I used to qualify with.  I tried both of the Remington subsonic and the Aguila SuperSniper heavy bullet rounds to be moderately accurate but no where near the better Match rounds.

I was going to make Rifleman come hell or high water so wanted any advantage I could get.  What did this do for me?  Well, it gave me the confidence that my rifle and ammo were doing what they were supposed to do and any misplaced shots were purely the guy pulling the trigger.   I pasted that target on the side of my ammo can to remind me the whole weekend that it was me, not the rifle.  The benefits were probably 99% psychological, but don't underestimate the benefits of confidence in your ammo choice. 

[indyjoe]

I don't see much difference in ammo and most barrels at 82 feet.  I was shooting prone groups in a ragged .40 hole with bulk Golden Bullet ammo and a stock 10/22 barrel.  If you get out to 50-200 yards, you might see a bigger difference.  Personally, I'd rather spend $200 on another 10/22 and build up another LTR to bring more people to the shoots.  The whole idea of Appleseed is that you can make rifleman with a rack grade rifle.  I can understand the psychological difference of adding more accuracy parts to the rifle, but the same advantage can be made by practicing dry fire enough to build that confidence.

[didactic]

I'm surprised that no one more experienced than I has chimed in yet.

Every .22 rifle is an individual, both in terms of accuracy and reliability, in regards to brands and/or velocity levels of ammo.

I have one rifle that shoots Winchester Power Points (HV and a pretty blunt HP bullet) more accurately than anything SV, and feeds them fine, and others that shoot SV straighter and feed plain RN better.

At 25m, shooting a QD-AQT target, the accuracy differences are probably important only at the margins of barely shooting 210 or barely coming up short, but reliability is a big factor.

[DaveD]

I think the article was presenting the arguement that is the bullet stayed below the speed of sound that is did not experience the effects of transitioning from sub to super -sonic effects.  The arguement was the better groups they were getting with each brand of ammo that was subsonic than the standard velocity ammo.  And, hey, I am all for it if I get better groups and better performance.  Especially when I am going to the Evansville Appleseed this October and gearing for a rifleman's badge! 

With my admittedly low experience level, I must agree with previous posters that at 25m you probability will not notice a difference super or sub sonic ammo.  The difference will be from wpn to wpn and the ammo that each one "likes".  Just try several and use what your 10/22 likes. If the sub gives accuracy & reliable cycling go for it.  Just think all, that testing gives you more trigger time. 

With my 10/22, although several brands of ammo give acceptable accuracy they will not reliability cycle the action since it was new from box.  I've scrubbed, scoured and cleaned everything, the rifle has approx 4000 rds through it and still only "likes"  CCI Mini Mag which works very well, and is more $ (still cheaper than .223). 
Two shooters at our Riley, IN shoot ran into the same problem (stove pipes) using Federal & Remington bulk pack.  Handed each a box of Mini Mag and problem gone.  Need more research!

usafe

[fepowered]

For me it is ALL about reliability.  I haven't found an ammo yet which will not shoot far better than 4MOA out of my 10/22s.   Personally, I found an ammo which my rifle likes.  I now shoot Federal Automatch (~$14 for 350) when I want the ultimate in reliability.  I shot an entire AS weekend without a misfire and it continues to be the most reliable ammo for me while I have been practicing since..... 

[scopeboy001]

it's all about the maxi-mags

my 10/22's LOVE the "MAXI-MAG" ammo from CCI

[Frontsight]

I bought a 10/22, put a set of tech sights and a GI sling on it, bought a couple of boxes of Remington Golden Bullets, the 550 round bonus pack, and managed to shoot a couple of rifleman scores on the second day of my first Appleseed. That was the first formal rifle instruction I've ever had and I attribute those rifleman scores solely to the instruction and encouragement I received from both the instructors and my neighbors on the firing line.  Just try it the Appleseed way.  Sometimes the hardest, really the hardest thing is to let go of all those bad habits one builds up over the years and the way we think we know how to shoot.  If you don't think your rifle will consistently group, put it on a bench (anathema, I know) and shoot a group with it.  Then you can see if it's the rifle or the loose screw behind it.  Good luck and have fun on the journey!

[mtmisfit]

I shoot mostly subsonics, but for a different reason.

For blasting ammo most anything will work, for a match I use good ammo.

What the extra expense gets you is consistency. Consistency in rim thickness, priming compound, bullet, velocity, etc. But none of that matters if your rifle doesn't like the ammo.  It will just be consitently inaccurate.

I have never had a misfire with Eley, Lapua, RWS, S&K or Aguila. I can't say that about Winchester, CCI, Remington or Federal. I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of .22, I use the cheap stuff for blasting and even some practice. When I travel 2000+ miles to shoot in a match more often than not it will be Eley Tenex in my gun.  It's not always the most accurate but it always goes bang. The $15/50 price tag is insignificant compared to the cost of the trip and the match fees.

That being said I've shot rifleman with a CZ452 and 2 different 10/22's all shooting CCI Blazer bulk pack ammo. Once your shooting becomes limited by the accuracy of your ammo then you can experiment with finding the best ammo for your rifle. Understand, once you find that ammo, buy all you can with the same lot number because once it's gone you may need to start all over.