Pistol Caliber Rifles at Appleseed, how to handle?

[sur+rifle]

I've run into an interesting problem and am looking for some advice.  I tried the search feature but didn't find any pertinent information.

Here in the Hoosier state, pistol caliber rifles seem to becoming more popular.  Some of this has to do with a change in hunting laws which allow rifles in certain large pistol calibers to be used (before now it was restricted to shotguns and muzzle loaders).  However, even 9 millimeter carbines are appearing at the local ranges and I am having to field questions about using them for Appleseed.  With that background, here are my questions.

• Are these rifles 4 MOA capable? From the ones I have seen, I have not been impressed.  They seem to be more like 8 to 10 MOA.  But I don't know if this is because of the rifle, the marksmanship ability of the shooters, the ammo used, or other variables.
• Are they reliable enough to handle the rigors of an Appleeed without constant cleaning?  What I am seeing is jams after every 50 rounds or so.
• How do you quickly apply the 30 caliber rule to these?  The holes they create in paper seem HUGE compared to 30 caliber.  I am not sure how "reduce" them to 30 caliber size.

Right now I have been promoting the merits of the LTR to those who ask, but given their growing popularity  I know it is only a matter of time before I see one of these on the line.

Thanks upfront for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

[Longshot]

Sur+

I own and have been shooting various pistol-cal rifles for some years. All of them, in my experience, are capable of 4MOA or better, even the lowly Hi-Point carbine. HOWEVER, most of the semi-auto offerings are NOT Appleseed material, in terms of durability and reliability.

There are a number of lever-action pistol-cal rifles that are excellent hunting guns, and could be used for an Appleseed shoot, I suppose, although they come with the inherent case of the "tube-fed blues".


Your instinct is probably well-founded, that most shooters would be better served by scrouging up a semi-auto .22.

My dim viewpoint...

LS

[1911Ron]

I would tend to agree, the shorter sight radius on a pistol carbine makes it harder to keep it to a tighter group than a Rifle would.  A .22 rifle and a brick of ammo will do nicely    1911Ron

[smle]

Not to mention the cost difference between a brick of 22lr and a equivalent amount any centerfire ammo.

[techres]

At the same time, the question still remains, with so many AR-15's at the range now in 9mm or even the Kel-Tec and Hipoint carbines, how shall we handle them?  I expect to see several this year easily.  I figure there are two issues:

1. Reliability:  I see no problem here.  You bring a problem rifle and you get the choice of mustling through or picking up a loaner 10/22.  Either solution is a great learning experience as was the one you got with the original problem.  Frankly, those bringing the AR-9mm's are likely to be the ones that are less likely to jam.   I do not see this as a problem to solve, but rather a training opportunity.

2. Points: I guess you run it like a 30 cal rule but in the opposite direction - reduce.  As long as you warn everyone at the start of the day, this should be no problem.  If you see one on the range, then be sure to say something.  At a technical point, you may need to use an overlay for scoring if the paper is too damaged I guess.

We will see how this goes.  I love the 10/22 and hope everyone sees the light of the LTR.  At the same time, I want people to learn their rifles and master the skills using the tools they have and will likely continue to take to their home range (in order to practice rifleman skills).

[dwarven1]

One way to discourage them if you get asked in advance is to point out that a pistol caliber is no good for 400 yard shooting. You can also point out that (with the exception of the AR-based ones), their sights won't let you apply the inches-minutes-clicks lessons.

There's also the cost, as you noted. Also as you noted, reliability can be an issue. Ask them if they can shoot 4-500 rounds out of it between cleanings. That's a fairly typical Sunday's worth of shooting (up here in New England, anyway), so point out if they're busy cleaning - or fighting with a balky rifle - they ain't learning.

[Garand69]

One of the very few rules that regulate the types of rifles allowed at an Appleseed puts the limit in caliber to 8mm/.32. It is on every flier that I print, so it shouldn't be an issue.

As for reliability, etc etc etc. Sometimes the only way folks will ever find out that their beloved choice in firearms is useless, is to have them experience it's uselessness. I always tell potential Appleseeders that mag fed semi-auto is your best choice, but if you don't have one, bring what you have (obviously 8mm/.32 cal or less).

If the rifles inaccuracy or unreliability cause them to miss the brass ring, they will be incouraged to equipt themselves better next time.

[Nickle]

The smart fix is to stick a loaner .22 in their hands and be done with it.

[cmidkiff]

Part of the message we use is that this is a 'run what you brung' program, and that we want you to be able to shoot 'with your rifle'.  If the only rifle a guy has is a .44 lever gun or a .40s&w Sub2K, I don't see any of us turning them away.  No, it's not ideal... yes, it'll present the shooter, and the instructor, with all sorts of problems.  Still, turning away folks that get up off the couch and come to an event doesn't strike me as the Appleseed way.

If we're going to apply the .30 cal rule in reverse, we need to know that, and apply that standard across the board.  Other than that, I see little reason not to allow people to shoot their pistol caliber carbines. As instructors, we would certainly talk about the multitude of reasons why the rifle they brought just isn't a Rifleman's rifle.  Perhaps offer them a loaner LTR, so they can see the difference.  Be gentle about it... trash talking about a guy's new rifle, even if it is a POS, isn't the way to win folks to our side.

Remember, Appleseed isn't a competition.  So some guy picks up a few points on an AQT that he didn't deserve because he was throwing a .40 cal chunk of lead... so what?  Realistically, I can't imagine it being a positive, when all factors are considered, they're probably at a huge disadvantage to someone with a good LTR. I don't even see trying to apply the .30 cal rule backwards as very important.  AFAIC, it's a wash.

Let 'em shoot.  We spend a great deal of time and energy trying to get people on the line.  Worrying about the size of the hole they punch in the target seems petty to me.  Take advantage of the opportunity, and educate the shooter.  Chances are pretty good they won't bring that pistol caliber carbine back next time, and if you treat them with respect, perhaps they'll bring some friends!

[Nickle]

First off, we don't apply the .30 cal rule backwards. It's there due to the scaling of the targets compensating for the short distance. To apply it backwards would simply be mor etrouble than it's worth.

Part of the problem will be truly evaluating the shooter's true score.

Now, I certainly don't (and won't tolerate others doing so) bashing ANYBODY's rifle. I do believe they'll get more out of the program by using the proper stuff. The .22-.32 caliber bit is listed, and we do see people asking otherwise, from time to time. We live with it. I certainly won't be one to turn anybody away. I'll still offer them that LTR, so they save money, though. If they don't take it, they won't get turned away, either.

Now, I'm the wise acre that's going get a Rifleman's score shot with a 6.5 Carcano, just to prove to all that it isn't about equipment. Even bought a Carcano for just that purpose. Yeah, I know, y'all think Nickle is nuts, totally crazy.    Well, when it's proven it CAN be done without fancy equipment, maybe it will slow down some of the equipment race we see.

[fepowered]

One of the very few rules that regulate the types of rifles allowed at an Appleseed puts the limit in caliber to 8mm/.32. It is on every flier that I print, so it shouldn't be an issue.
...I always tell potential Appleseeders that mag fed semi-auto is your best choice, but if you don't have one, bring what you have (obviously 8mm/.32 cal or less).

I certainly hope that we would never dream of turning someone away from an Appleseed just because they wish to shoot their Marlin .35, High Point .40 S&W, etc.....   This is not in the Appleseed spirit and is contrary to the Appleseed mission.
Regarding 4MOA, I have seen people shooting AKs as that is all they had and they could only shoot 6-8 MOA with a few 4MOA groups by the end of the weekend after starting out at 12MOA.  It had more to do with the sights and the shooter than the rifle.  All this did was motivate them to bring something else next time.  The important thing is that they stuck with it and improved.  Regarding jams, we just have to make sure that a malfunctioning rifle does not take up everyone's time all weekend. 

[ACP230]

I thought about bringing my lever Marlin 1894FG in .41 Magnum to the Appleseed I attended at Shiocton, WI last May.
Probably would have, but discovered I was out of reloads for it. (Somewhere there still may be a box of .41s that I overlooked).

I think the rifle would have done OK at 25 meters because it's got excellent XS peep sights installed.  (I would still have had the same vision problems that gave me trouble with my M1a and the Winchester .22 I shot most).
     
I must have read the 8mm/.32 caliber rule, but assumed it applied to full power rifles--not the lower powered pistol caliber carbines.     

[fepowered]

I thought about bringing my lever Marlin 1894FG in .41 Magnum to the Appleseed I attended at Shiocton, WI last May.
....    
I must have read the 8mm/.32 caliber rule, but assumed it applied to full power rifles--not the lower powered pistol caliber carbines.     

I can assure you that there has never been nor will there ever be a statement on a Wisconsin Appleseed flyer regarding a limitation on caliber...    You would do better with a Williams or other traditional style peep sight than a XS Ghost ring sight on your Marlin shooting an Appleseed.

[Old Dog]

While the .32 caliber statement has been made on the forum and on flyers in the past I saw a 9mm carbine on the line at the Jun/Jul RBC at Ramseur several days in 2008.  So it's been done.

Score it like the bullet hole makes it look.  Between the reported accuracy, skill level, reliability issues they may not be scoring too well anyway.

[Garand69]

I thought about bringing my lever Marlin 1894FG in .41 Magnum to the Appleseed I attended at Shiocton, WI last May.
....    
I must have read the 8mm/.32 caliber rule, but assumed it applied to full power rifles--not the lower powered pistol caliber carbines.     

I can assure you that there has never been nor will there ever be a statement on a Wisconsin Appleseed flyer regarding a limitation on caliber...    You would do better with a Williams or other traditional style peep sight than a XS Ghost ring sight on your Marlin shooting an Appleseed.

I guess I'm losing my mind a bit on the flyers, the new ones don't have that anymore

Anyhoo, Run what ya brung is fine, but you have to encourge folks to bring something that will work so their Appleseed Experience is the best it can be, a PCC in the hands of the typical owner, will not contribute to a fun weekend for most.

I'm not bashing anybody's choice of firearm, the firearm will do it all by it's self. 

[fepowered]

Anyhoo, Run what ya brung is fine, but you have to encourge folks to bring something that will work so their Appleseed Experience is the best it can be, a PCC in the hands of the typical owner, will not contribute to a fun weekend for most.
I'm not bashing anybody's choice of firearm, the firearm will do it all by it's self. 

I personally highly encourage 10/22s.  Every Appleseed FAQ and Guide to Appleseed encourages the use of aperture sights on whatever you are bringing and a .22 to save money at 25M.  Some people are hard nosed and insist on their AK, G3, etc.. even at 25M.    Strongly encourage is all we can do.  As you alluded to, all will see the implications of their choice very quickly on the firing line.  Many bring something else for Sunday.

[Old Dog]

When it comes to something like a deer rifle or carbine remember the amount of rounds and the time factor.  The May '08 Black Creek Appleseed saw a 30-30 Winchester on the firing line for short periods of time.  It got very hot very quick and the shooter had two issues, one was the barrel temps vs. his finger tips (no full circumferunce handguard on a Model 94) and the group size growing as the heat affected the barrel.

For what it's worth.

[sur+rifle]

O.K.  Just to summarize all of this information.

The pistol caliber rifles in general are 4 MOA accurate.  Therefore shooters won't necessarily get frustrated using them.  (I've seen some specific AKs and other rifles which weren't 4 MOA accurate and this really frustrates shooters.)  Of course, if there is a problem then per SOP the solution is to switch them out with a loaner.

Depending on model, some pistol caliber rifles may have reliability issues.  Again, SOP is to switch them out.

Even though some of these use bullets which are significantly wider than 30 caliber, do not try to adjust scores to 30 caliber size.  While this will create error (probably an extra 5 to 10 points based on some used targets I have around) it isn't worth the trouble.  We will still recognize a 210 score as meeting Rifleman status and will award a patch accordingly.

Did I understand this correctly?

[Nickle]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

[dwarven1]

O.K.  Just to summarize all of this information.

The pistol caliber rifles in general are 4 MOA accurate. 

One other thing to point out to shooters - the ballistics of the pistol caliber cartridges mean that they do NOT have a 400 yard range, in spite of how accurate they are.

[ashrn03]

[One other thing to point out to shooters - the ballistics of the pistol caliber cartridges mean that they do NOT have a 400 yard range, in spite of how accurate they are.

Well, for that matter, neither is the 22 long rifle.

[Nickle]

There's some shooters that have rung gongs at 400 yards with 10/22's that might argue that last point.

Not that we advocate shooting the AQT at 400 with a .22.

[Fred]

    FWIW, the caliber limitation was put in to prevent someone from showing up and trying his .50 BMG calibre on an AQT.

    It was not intended to apply to pistol caliber rifles -  in fact, the thought of them never occurred at the time.

    Likewise, the language about "shoulder fired"... - again, to eliminate 'overkill' rifles that someone might be tempted to bring.

    PS: 5/9 hits at 400 yards on a life-size groundhog target with a Chinese bolt-action .22 and Walmart .22 ammo prone with a sling was done at RWVA range some years ago, when we shot .22s at 400 (we never could get a group at 500 - they flat run out of steam between 400 and 500, accuracy-wise).

[ashrn03]

There's some shooters that have rung gongs at 400 yards with 10/22's that might argue that last point.

They would be much better shots than I am.   The closest ballistic data I have is for a 40 grain spitzer bullet at 1500 fps: the mid-range trajectory for a 400 yard zero is over 80".  However, I think we agree if a shooter can consistantly clean the 400 yard-reduced 25 meter AQT but 'only' do 5/9 on 400 meter full size targets that the rifle/caliber isn't really be up to the task?  (Great for practice though - like using click-bang ammo: if you can do it with that, doing it with a good ammo (or a 'real' rifle cartridge) would seem measurably easier).  Hmmmm, now I'm wondering how my 357 mag carbine would do at 300 yards . . . .

[Talon]

.

[Old Dog]

Its not the trajectory that's an issue.  It's the groups size when the bullet gets there and whether or not the shooter knows his equipment well enough to put the group where he wants it.

I've read that in the 1890's there were competitions where folks would put 10 shots into a 12" circle at 1000 yds.  The mid range trajectory for those rounds was about 55 feet.

It's not easy to learn to shoot like that.  Today we've got it made with the rifles and cartridges available.

Is it the shooting we are promoting, or the Program and the outcome?  If it's the shooting can folks learn the basics of rifle marksmanship with a pistol caliber carbine?  Heck yes.  Can they hear the 3 Strikes of the Match and get the feeling we want them to get if they bring a PCC to an Appleseed?  Heck yes.  Can they go on to be instructors if they shoot their PCC well enough at an Appleseed (or two)?  Heck yes.

Where is the issue?

[ACP230]

The next shoot I get to I will be running a scoped 10/22.

The 1894 was considered, briefly, because it had peep sights and reloads are cheap compared to surplus .308.       

[colycat]

What are the come ups for a 22 at 400 yrds?  Fred.  Sounds like a lot of fun

[techres]

Yup, that pretty much sums it up.

The rule is set.  Glad that is the solution.  It will work fine, and I bet Indiana has a rifleman based on pistol before the end of the year.

[Johnnyappleseed]

At the Boulder shoot ,i brought a model 70 in 3006.  after 40 rds the bbl was so hot, it melted a channel in the foam mat, further I did touch the bbl + was fortunate not to ruin the weekend
As others have mentioned we learn from mistakes.
Those who have the AS attitude will learn equiptment varibles.
All weekend we talk of the riflemans quarter mile + if the pistol ca. shooter needs a little prompting to buy a MBR We invite them to try ours at 300+ distance.
At AS we should always encourage, reinforce + compliment our attendee's decision to attend .
In my opinion, a person who could make rifleman with a thompson should be awarded a patch.
It might be fun to have each IIT + Redhat qualify each year using Nickles Carcano  OMG did I say that
Semper fidelis
JA