Author Topic: Independence day  (Read 215 times)

Offline TomMPR

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Independence day
« on: July 04, 2019, 12:06:42 PM »
Here’s hoping that everyone has a safe and enjoyable independence day!

Offline Snow Snake

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 02:28:53 PM »
 :yeahthat: Let me remind you: We owe this day to the common man with weapons resisting unreasonable government.
             Ken                         :F
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Offline EZ3

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM »
:yeahthat: Let me remind you: We owe this day to the common man with weapons resisting unreasonable government.
             Ken                         :F

It's also good to remember that violence was the last resort, after all political means had been exhausted and the government had ordered confiscation of the colonist's means of self-defense.  But still, it's humbling to think that they valued liberty so greatly that they were willing to take up arms to defend it.  Could our current generation say the same?  Let's work to make sure it isn't necessary to find out!

 :F
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.    Plato

Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves.    Churchill

Offline Texas T

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2019, 05:32:44 PM »
Well said. Thank you   O0
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


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Offline scuzzy

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2019, 07:36:54 PM »
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
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Offline PHenry

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2019, 04:38:40 PM »
I ran across the following many years ago, after seeing a dissertation offered at an event in GA. Jefferson chose his words carefully.

Alienable vs. Inalienable vs. Unalienable
Colonel Dan, SASS# 24025 Life/Regulator

I get supremely irritated every time I hear so called experts, politicians and pundits refer to our constitutional rights as “inalienable.” But I was shocked to my socks when I visited the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. (constructed under FDR in 1939-43) and saw the inscription on the wall which referenced the very same “inalienable rights”—a blatant misquoting of Jefferson’s words from the Declaration of Independence! Why does this upset you Colonel? I’ll tell you why. Words mean things and every word has distinct significance that conveys a concept or thought. Were it not so, Jefferson and the Founders wouldn’t have gone to such great lengths in diligently writing the Declaration or the Constitution. Two documents they agonized over, argued about, debated on and nit picked to death before they had something on which they could reasonably agree. Even then, several delegates at the Constitutional Convention refused to sign because they still had lingering doubts about giving any government too much authority and power over the individual and the states. So let’s take a close look at this whole thing and then you tell me how crazy I may be. Is this a distinction without a difference; a difference without a distinction; a crackpot idea from a crackpot old soldier or is there really some underlying significance here?

Thomas Jefferson was a genius of the first order. He was trained and educated in multiple disciplines but for the purpose of this essay I want to focus on his legal training—he was a lawyer and if any discipline is trained to parse words it’s the law. Jefferson epitomized the phrase used by a good friend of mine, “precision of language for precision of thought” agonizing over the exact wording of his Declaration for days on end. He shut himself off from the world and dedicated himself totally to the task…writing, rewriting and re-rewriting, choosing each word with extreme care; his final words in the relevant paragraph were:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.”

He chose “unalienable” for a very specific reason and given the beliefs upon which America was founded, it was the only word he could have used to convey the divine truth he was trying to capture. He rejected the words alienable and inalienable precisely describing our rights as unalienable. OK colonel, what’s the difference?

To discuss this, I turned to the best legal mind I have ever had the honor to know for help in verifying my conclusions. Below is his response with legal references cited:

"Alienable constitutional rights" include the right to a trial by jury, to legal counsel, not to incriminate oneself, and related matters that may be waived whenever assertable if not asserted. Black's Law Dictionary 6th ed. p. 72. citing Weck v. District Court of the Second Judicial District 158 Colo 521, 408 Pac. 2d 987, 990.

"Inalienable rights" are rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights, such as freedom of speech or religion, due process of law, or equal protection of the laws. Black's Law Dictionary 6th ed. p. 759 citing Morrison v. State (Mo App) 252 SW 2d 97, 101.

Unalienable rights are those which can never be abridged because they are so fundamental. Black's Law Dictionary 6th ed. p. 1523

What does this mean from my legal expert’s viewpoint? I quote:

“Thus, if life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are alienable, then they are waived whenever they go unasserted. If they are inalienable, they cannot be taken without consent, but may be yielded by those preferring security or "political correctness.” But if they are unalienable, then any taking is wrongful, and subject to reversal at the earliest expedient moment.”
Now that we have the relevant legal points clearly defined, let’s look at an old soldier’s interpretation.

Unalienable rights are those bestowed on man by divine origin and can never be transferred, abridged or denied. We don’t have the ability or authority to transfer those rights even if we wanted to because they were ascribed to human kind by the Creator of human kind and we have no right to abridge or abrogate divine rights which were bestowed on the whole of mankind by its Creator.


In Liberty,
PHenry
Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Offline scuzzy

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2019, 06:17:16 PM »

Unalienable rights are those which can never be abridged because they are so fundamental. Black's Law Dictionary 6th ed. p. 1523


That is one of my pet peeves too. I used to have some friends that were paralegals. That was one of the things we discussed. What is sad is that Black's Legal has been altered quite a bit in the  last few decades.

Words have lost meaning and it is by design. Double Plus Ungood.

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Offline PHenry

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 03:59:33 PM »
A fine point Scuzzy.
Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Offline CarrollMS

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Re: Independence day
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 11:51:25 PM »
Unalienable rights are those bestowed on man by divine origin and can never be transferred, abridged or denied. We don’t have the ability or authority to transfer those rights even if we wanted to because they were ascribed to human kind by the Creator of human kind and we have no right to abridge or abrogate divine rights which were bestowed on the whole of mankind by its Creator....
I agree....from the Creator. A threat we face in our great country today are the godless who believe all "rights" are alienable and gifts of the government - and that rights are not only alienable, but malleable. They certainly reject Divinely bestowed rights. They take great bedrock principles of our patriots and twist them - attempting to redefine words like "well regulated" and "militia"  Another example is  capitalization. In the original manuscript Jefferson wrote, "of the united States of America" and in the stone transcript made in 1820 the phrase was was changed to "of the United States" with a capital U, a small change in a character, but a mighty change in a concept: There was no "United States", only united colonies which had declared and asserted their individual independence in 1776. Words matter, so does capitalization. Jefferson and the appointed writing committee that worked with him were precise in their word choice for the times and circumstances in which they wrote, but were and are misunderstood often.
 http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.html vs https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript.
Mark Sutherd Carroll, Lee County, KY
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