KD slings?

[Badger498]

I'll be shooting my first KD soon with an AR, and I'd like to use the sling I've had on it for a few years, but it isn't the GI sling that is taught.
Can I use my favorite adjustable 2 point sling (Magpul MS-4) in hasty sling configuration, or will I need one that can also be a loop sling?

[drifter52]

There's no rule against it.  If that's what you're comfortable with, go with it.

My first KD I shot shot and qualified using a .308 bolt gun and hasty sling in all positions, but it was tough.  Hasty is better than no sling, but there's no question that the loop sling definitely provides more support.

The most important things to come away from a KD with are real experience with calculating and adjusting for bullet drop at various distances (gravity), and reading and adjusting for wind.  These are theoretical issues in a 25 yard AS - they're real factors at a KD.  You don't need a loop sling for that.

[NJrefugee]

I've been able to use the MS4 sling as a loop sling. You have to adjust the length at the handguard so that you can put your arm through the "loop" that is made by taking almost all the adjustment length out of the tri-glide buckle. (Making the sling long.)  You may have to disconnect the sling from the buttock, but that's fine. Just ignore that part of the sling as it hangs free. The important thing is that you are in the loop and it is adjusted to the proper tension by adjusting the length at the front attachment point. You might have to adjust the tri-glide to shorten the overall sling length if you want to try the hasty positions. Play around with the front and rear lengths, and you can get to a point where all AS positions are possible. 

[peterlandsiedel]

I run a magpul MS4 on my AR, and use it as a loop sling.  Fiddle with the adjustments til it works.  Mine is dialed in and is as tight and reliable as a USGI sling.

[maxwell]

The most important things to come away from a KD with are real experience with calculating and adjusting for bullet drop at various distances (gravity), and reading and adjusting for wind.  These are theoretical issues in a 25 yard AS - they're real factors at a KD.  You don't need a loop sling for that.

I agree with this, but I also suggest that you still want the most stable sling setup possible, so you can remove as many variables as possible from the equation. If you're dealing with a hasty sling that's slipped halfway down to your elbow in rapid/slow prone, you might end up wondering if your huge group is due to the wind or to using muscle because your sling isn't helping like it could. If you've already qualified at KD and can call your shots, though, have at it!

[drifter52]

The most important things to come away from a KD with are real experience with calculating and adjusting for bullet drop at various distances (gravity), and reading and adjusting for wind.  These are theoretical issues in a 25 yard AS - they're real factors at a KD.  You don't need a loop sling for that.

I agree with this, but I also suggest that you still want the most stable sling setup possible, so you can remove as many variables as possible from the equation. If you're dealing with a hasty sling that's slipped halfway down to your elbow in rapid/slow prone, you might end up wondering if your huge group is due to the wind or to using muscle because your sling isn't helping like it could. If you've already qualified at KD and can call your shots, though, have at it!

Agreed.  That's what I was intending to convey when I said "Hasty is better than no sling, but there's no question that the loop sling definitely provides more support.", but Maxwell conveyed the point much better.

[maxwell]

Agreed.  That's what I was intending to convey when I said "Hasty is better than no sling, but there's no question that the loop sling definitely provides more support.", but Maxwell conveyed the point much better.

Sorry I snipped that part: I think we're in violent agreement on this point! I need to get a Magpul sling or two for experimental purposes, though, since a couple of guys showed up with them last weekend. Another shooter was using a VTAC two-point sling, but kept forgetting to put his support hand inside it. The 1907 and USGI sling are easy for me now, but the Magpuls and tactical slings are a different animal, and it's hard to teach proper usage when you've only seen it demonstrated.

[Cable___Guy]

Armageddon Gear PRS sling.
Pro - It works great once you figure it out , you do not have to detach the rear point to get into the loop sling.
Con - $100 bucks.

Nuff said.

[stoneknives]

Buy the clone slings on Amazon. They run between 9 and 20$. The Docooler and the AmeriGun Club Magpul clones are pretty good slings. The TEAMS not so much.

The new slings showing up a lot more often. The behind the neck, under the armpit, with the arm wrap like a hasty. With the quick adjustment on the fore stock side is a pretty darn good sling for all three positions.

Henry

[AJ Gonzales]

Armageddon Gear PRS sling.
Pro - It works great once you figure it out , you do not have to detach the rear point to get into the loop sling.
Con - $100 bucks.

Nuff said.

That thing rocks! Worth a hunnid bucks imo.

[Badger498]

For those of you who have adjusted the MS4 to work as a loop, is it still short enough to use as a traditional 2point across the chest and still tighten up enough for use as a hasty?
I don't want to sacrifice the basic carry and speed of those functions just to get a loop for a 1 day event.

I'm now considering adding a different QD to the GI sling on my 22, but I'd really rather find a way to use the MS4, since that's what will live on that gun.

[NJrefugee]

Setting up the front half of the sling to work as a loop is easy. You just make the adjustment range in the tri-glide as large as possible by not having any remaining webbing hanging past the QD attachment. From there, you can tighten a little if needed.

The tough part us setting up the length on the rear of the sling. You have to take out a lot of slack in the rear and also run the front of the sling in the shortest configuration (with the tri-glide all the way forward) to be able to use it as a hasty sling. In doing do, you potentially lose the ability to use the sling to patrol carry (even if you adjust the front half of the sling to max length by pulling the tri-glide all the way back). 

You could easily take out a bunch of the rear slack for the event, then adjust it back to allow for patrol carry. (I have marked my sling with pen to indicate how the rear has to be set up for either. I don't mess with the front part of the sling.)  Or you can shoot all Appleseed positions fully slung up, including standing.

[peterlandsiedel]

For those of you who have adjusted the MS4 to work as a loop, is it still short enough to use as a traditional 2point across the chest and still tighten up enough for use as a hasty?
I don't want to sacrifice the basic carry and speed of those functions just to get a loop for a 1 day event.

I'm now considering adding a different QD to the GI sling on my 22, but I'd really rather find a way to use the MS4, since that's what will live on that gun.

Yes.  Still short enough to run as a two point across the chest.

[Badger498]

I decided to just add a couple different QD connectors to the GI sling I normally have on my 22 to get through this shoot.
I would still like to make the MS-4 work, but I must not be visualizing your advice right.
Anybody got a pic of an MS-4 that is set up for loop? I'm not sure I understand which opening you are using for the arm.
Thanks
Badger498

[Bobasan]

Here is a quick pic series of a similar tactical sling the Blue Force Gear Vickers Tactical.  You can certainly use these slings conventionally.  I shot a number of our club KD'esqe shoots with the configuration as shown to good effect.  Note that I have virtually the same length sling for prone as I do sitting so your mileage may vary

Bobasan

[Badger498]

Thanks Bobasan.
Nice pics, and group.
What sling is that. Looks different than my MS4.

[pblanc]

That sling is the Vickers Combat Applications Sling (often called the VCAS) designed by Larry Vickers and sold by Blue Force Gear.

I have a VCAS sling as well as a VTAC (Viking Tactics Adjustable Sling) and they both work well for their intended purpose.  But their intended purpose is not use as a loop sling, although it may be possible to rig them for that use.

The VCAS and VTAC are both examples of two-point tactical slings with a rapid length adjustment capability.  Their primary purpose is secure weapons retention when carrying the weapon across the chest or back for cross-country travel, and holding the weapon in a ready position when using both arms to attend to other duties, or when transitioning to a side-arm.  The quick adjustment feature allows the sling to be very quickly lengthened, which facilitates transitioning the rifle from strong side to weak side, or from the front across the chest to the back.

But I question why you would choose to jury-rig a tactical sling for use as a loop sling?  It is true that you can sometimes use a flat-bladed screwdriver to remove a Phillips head screw, but there is a much better tool specifically designed for that purpose.

As has been said, tactical slings of this type are usually worn over the strong-side shoulder and under the support-side armpit with the body of the sling crossing the back diagonally.  If the sling is cinched fairly tight, it can offer some degree of rifle stabilization akin to a hasty sling, especially if the forward sling attachment point is far enough forward that the support hand can be wrapped over it.  But in my hands and in my opinion, it does not offer nearly as much support for shooting sitting or prone as a decent loop sling when it comes to target marksmanship.  And I find that it does not work quite as well for stabilization when shooting standing as a proper hasty sling does, although others might have a different opinion on that point.

With quick release hardware, slings are very easily installed, removed, or swapped.  A USGI sling is pretty inexpensive and its length can be adjusted much more easily and quickly to use it as a loop sling for sitting or prone, or a hasty sling for standing.  I would just buy one and install whatever hardware is necessary to connect it to the existing attachment points on your rifle.  In other words, buy the Phillips head screwdriver.

[Badger498]

Pblanc, thanks for taking the time to write that.
I agree on having the right tool for the job, and I see the usage and benefits of the different slings as you do.

My desire to make a 2 point tactical sling also work as a loop comes from the purpose of the rifle in question. It's not a target gun, or a long range sniper rifle, but rather an AR in 5.56 intended to be a defender, and especially suited to engage multiple targets at close and medium range in rapid succession. In that role, I really like the 2 point's utility over what a carry strap or GI have to offer, and can make good use of a tight 2 point as a hasty.
If tiny groups on targets was the goal, I would loop up every time, but that's not how this gun would primarily be handled if needed.
I do, however, believe strongly in the added stability and accuracy of using a loop, so if a situation ever calls for that, I would like to be able to use the sling that lives on the gun to fill the role of loop as well.

[Badger498]

I'm also bringing a bolt gun to play with in .308. That gun can live with a carry strap or GI since, in my opinion, it is much less suited to rapid target engagement at closer range. She is much more likely to make use of the loop.

[Bobasan]

Just an FYI.  On the Vickers slings they were designed with the intent to be able to be used as a loop sling as well.  The target I posted was shot at 25, 50, 75 and 100yds in a reduced KD format using the rifle and sling pictured.  The only drawback for me using that sling is i can't leave it on my arm between stages like I can with the standard web sling which during a full 2 day event makes it a deal breaker for me.  Oh, I don't use a sling standing and have no idea how well the Vickers sling would work.

Bobasan

[pblanc]

If you really want to use a tactical two-point sling as a loop sling, the Blue Force VCAS will probably work better than most others because of its design.

The VCAS length quick adjustment uses a slider that is slid forward all the way to the front sling attachment point to tighten the sling, and slid rearward to loosen it.  Many two-point adjustable slings work in the opposite way, by pulling a slider forward to loosen the sling and rearward to tighten it up.  These include the VTAC sling from Viking Tactics, the Frank Proctor Way of the Gun sling, and the Magpul MS4.

On the VCAS sling the webbing strap runs from the forward attachment point, through the slider, then through a D-ring, and then doubles back with the end sewn onto the slider.  The two limbs of the sling then form a loop that can be placed over the arm with the D ring at the back of the arm, and the slider can be pulled down tight against the front of the arm to create a closed loop.

With most other tactical two-point slings, if you want to use the sling as a loop sling, it will be a somewhat looser open loop sling like a Rhodesian sling, unless you can figure out how to add another slider or sling keeper to it, but doing that might diminish its functionality as a tactical sling.

For what it is worth, I own a Blue Force VCAS sling along the other slings mentioned (except the Magpul) and I have tried using it as a loop sling.  Yes, it does work but the inability to easily and quickly adjust the sling tension between the sitting and prone stages makes it much less desirable than a model 1907 leather sling or USGI web sling, at least for me.

For those who do not require a sling tension adjustment between sitting and prone, and do not use a sling for shooting offhand such as Bobasan, it could probably work pretty well.

If one plans to use a sling in the "hasty" configuration for all three shooting positions, I suspect that most two-point tactical slings could be made to work pretty well, although those that have somewhat limited length adjustment excursion may need to be shortened up at the front or rear attachment points, as the overall length would need to be considerably shorter than when used in the customary "over one shoulder and under the other arm" configuration.