Cast Bullets in the M1 and M14 and other Semi Autos (AQT Ammo)

[Grin Reaper]

Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand?  And if so, which weight?

I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well.  Lee seems to have the better prices.

Thoughts?

[raf]

Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand?  And if so, which weight?

I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well.  Lee seems to have the better prices.

Thoughts?

I think there were a few posts on the subject on the old site.  It has been done, but doing so has some drawbacks in the Garand and even rifles in general. 

Naturally, you would want the same weight range as for standard copper-clad bullets.  You would also want to use a very hard lead alloy.  If gas-checks are available, using them would be highly recommended.  Leading of the bore would become a problem, and such deposits are most easily removed by an electrolytic device.  The bullets will not have a cannelure, so bullet shift is something on which to keep an eye.  Perhaps a Lee Factory crimp die could remedy the problem.  You will want multi-bullet moulds, and a couple of them as one will be cooling while the other is filled.  Empty the first while second is cooling, pour into first, empty second, and so on.  Saves a lot of dead time waiting, and will speed up production greatly.  I have never done it myself, so the above is pretty much the extent of my recollections of the advice of those who have posted on the subject.  I got the impression that solid lead bullets were not entirely practical as a bullet that was shot a great deal, as one might do with practice rounds.
Hopefully someone else who has some first-hand knowledge will come along.

[Old Dog]

Never used a set of iron molds.  I bought Lee molds (the .45 acp gave me excellent bullets).  As I recall the molds have to be hot to give "good" bullets.  Mine was a double cavity mold (2 bullets).  I did not have to cool the mold between bullets.  You actually have to heat it up at the beginning.  Until the mold reaches its proper temperature the lead cannot form a well made bullet.  The "cold" mold will give you a combination of misformed bullets and "frosting".  You'll know a frosted bullet when you see it vs. a "good" bullet.  Yes, I never used them for my 45 or 357 but gas checks on a rifle bullet would be a good idea.  I think you'd want heavier bullets for your cast loads as the bullet will be moving quite a bit slower than the standard jackets bullets.

Seems like in the discussion on cast bullets on the old forum Ken Grant and Nickle had the most input on cast bullets for M1's.  All my experience is with pistols.  So I can say with those molds/bullet designs that some cast bullets will shoot great!!  and you will never find a good accurate load for some bullets (so be prepared to either sell those molds and buy new ones with a different bullet design or bullet weight or keep the "bad ones" hoping you'll come across a pistol/revolver that does shoot those bullets well).

Also, shooting cast bullets will require sizing and lubing of the bullets.  For pistols anyway the Lee sizer and lube kits seemed to work as well as the high dollar units sold by other manufacturers.

Don't just start melting lead.  It's above 700 F when melted so make sure you read all the safey precautions in the book you buy and read before getting started so you can do it safely and continue to live a long healthy life and see what you're aiming at.  Good luck.

[Nickle]

Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand?  And if so, which weight?

I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well.  Lee seems to have the better prices.

Thoughts?

Well, I thought this was a good post to start a new topic, so, I split it off.

Yes, the M1 can use cast bullets. I've delved into this a fair amount, and will be posting some info on this later.

[Grin Reaper]

Thanks, guys.

[Oohrah]

Used 180gr gas checked, Lymond mould.  Cast lead with 10 to 1 part tin.
Never a sign of leading.   For accuracy, all copper wash from jacketed
bullets must be removed.   With the bolts I used 4831,  Garands used
4895 on the moderate side due to bullet weight.

[Nickle]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=27

Quite a bunch of info on the subject at this link.

[Muddogg]

Never used a set of iron molds.  I bought Lee molds (the .45 acp gave me excellent bullets).  As I recall the molds have to be hot to give "good" bullets.  Mine was a double cavity mold (2 bullets).  I did not have to cool the mold between bullets.  You actually have to heat it up at the beginning.  Until the mold reaches its proper temperature the lead cannot form a well made bullet.  The "cold" mold will give you a combination of misformed bullets and "frosting".  You'll know a frosted bullet when you see it vs. a "good" bullet.  Yes, I never used them for my 45 or 357 but gas checks on a rifle bullet would be a good idea.  I think you'd want heavier bullets for your cast loads as the bullet will be moving quite a bit slower than the standard jackets bullets.

Seems like in the discussion on cast bullets on the old forum Ken Grant and Nickle had the most input on cast bullets for M1's.  All my experience is with pistols.  So I can say with those molds/bullet designs that some cast bullets will shoot great!!  and you will never find a good accurate load for some bullets (so be prepared to either sell those molds and buy new ones with a different bullet design or bullet weight or keep the "bad ones" hoping you'll come across a pistol/revolver that does shoot those bullets well).

Also, shooting cast bullets will require sizing and lubing of the bullets.  For pistols anyway the Lee sizer and lube kits seemed to work as well as the high dollar units sold by other manufacturers.

Don't just start melting lead.  It's above 700 F when melted so make sure you read all the safey precautions in the book you buy and read before getting started so you can do it safely and continue to live a long healthy life and see what you're aiming at.  Good luck.

Actually frosting occurs form too hot of a mold or the lead itself.

[Mark Davis]

Read a story in American Rifleman some years back written by a fellow who with a 165 grain bullet and a reduced charge of 4895 got good results shooting cast bullets in M1A.
Then the rifle ceased to function the action. The writer said lead had sheared off the bullets and plugged the gas port. Easy enough to clean once you get there......... He no longer shoots cast bullets in gas guns.
                                                                         Clodhopper

[smle]

Know a shooter localy, who shoots only cast bullets,(bolt action only), For the reason clodhopper gave. But you also have to watch for much increased barrel heat. Military type barrels are designed and made for copper jacketed bullets. Cast bullets are an larger diameter compared to the copper jacket bullets. smle

[Nickle]

Cast bullets are an larger diameter compared to the copper jacket bullets. smle

If you cast your own, you can cast and size them to the size you want. I know, the past rage was a .311 cast bullet in a .308 bore.

But, some of us use .308 cast bullets in a .308 bore. 

One of my favorites is the Lyman 308291 bullet (these molds used to be a regular item, then special order for a while). Yeah, I did post the number right. Same as the 311291, just a little smaller.

[TwoGlock]

Question: Can you safely use cast bullets in the Garand?  And if so, which weight?

I'm looking for a bullet mould for the above; it would do double-duty for a .308 bolt-action, as well.  Lee seems to have the better prices.

Thoughts?

I believe you can safely shoot cast bullets in any firearm.  In fact I have shot a lot of cast bullets both of my own casting and commercial cast bullets in both rifles & handguns.

After many years of this I finally decided I enjoyed shooting more than I did scrubbing bores, cylinders, sweating over a hot melting pot, scrounging for scrap lead & tin and the sweet smell of beeswax.

Reference the comment of iron molds/aluminum molds.  They both have to be HOT in order for the bullets to fill out properly.  The cast iron molds take a lot longer to heat up than aluminum.

Finally I personally WOULD NOT use lead bullets, gas checked or not, in any gas ported firearm.  A lot of folks did this with the Ruger 44 Mag. carbine and serious functioning problems soon developed due to lead fouling in the gas port.

If you have just got to do it, let us know how it works for you.

[Nickle]

First, cast bullets shouldn't be used in a Glock. You can do it, if you clean very often. The Glock Polygonal Rifling causes excessive leading. Just need to clean it out more often.

About gas guns shooting lead. If you can access the gas ports to clean them (M1 Garand, M14, AK), no problem. If you can't (M1 Carbine, AR), then don't use cast bullets, because if you plug the port, you've got a real problem, and the best fix might mean a new barrel.

As to practicality of cast bullets in the M1 Garand, I'd say ask George Nonte, but he's dead now. He's done a LOT of lead through an M1.

[TwoGlock]

First, cast bullets shouldn't be used in a Glock. You can do it, if you clean very often. The Glock Polygonal Rifling causes excessive leading. Just need to clean it out more often.

You are absolutely correct about Glock's & Cast bullets in the factory barrel, and I would not even dream of doing it having seen pictures of several KaBoom's!.

Some of the locals here have bought aftermarket cut rifled barrels so they can safely shoot lead bullets and do so with great sucess.

I have an aftermarket barrel for one of my Glock's, a Glock 34.  My aim was to have greater accuracy.  My barrel is a Storm Lake barrell.  It shoot's almost as accurate as the factory barrel.  In other words, it was a waste of money for me.

But then again, it might just be superb with the right cast bullet?  Hummmmmm.......

I shouldn't be thinking like this................

[HABCAN]

With milsurp drying up and the price of bullets skyrocketing, I suggest y'all substitute cast boolits in reloads for the volumes of rounds needed for shooting AQT's, as 4MOA is very easily obtained, better accuracy than that is normal, and tuning your load will let you shoot cast beyond 500 yards.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

You might want to check out some of the things I've posted here also.

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2007/10/next-steps-hot-lead.html

http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2007/10/next-steps-where-have-all-bullets-gone.html

Just a suggestion.

[SGTCap]

I dont think cast will work in 556 or 7.62 rifles will it?

[HABCAN]

Cast hard, as in water-dropped from the mould, should work fine. All who have tried cast have routed the myth that 'cast boolits will clog up your gas system' or otherwise bugger up a semi-auto action. See my posts elsewhere, linked above.

[Nickle]

I do NOT recommend using cast bullets in an M1 Carbine, and recommend avoiding them in an AR.

FAL, AK, SKS, M1 and M14/M1A are NO problem, as the ports can be accessed for cleaning.

Use a hard alloy, if you can, and water drop them to harden the rest of the way. You can even somewhat get away with water dropping them using wheel weights, as that has enough antimony to harden them. 50/50 wheel weights and linotype is one of the better alloys to use, and I'm even going to try 100% linotype. I have well over 400 pounds of it, and no you can't have or buy any, as it's almost impossible to get.

[Scout]

I'm even going to try 100% linotype. I have well over 400 pounds of it, and no you can't have or buy any, as it's almost impossible to get.

ooops... I was at an estate sale a little while back of a guy who shot himself and he was a reloader. He had over a pick up load of little boxes of the lead linotype stuff stacked on pallets in his barn. Old red wax paper boxes with the lead wrapped in paper inside. I had no idea what it was for. Also all kinds of other lead products, boxes and boxes of them. I would guess he had two pick up loads altogether.

But I had no idea what it was, I guessed for bullets, but was not sure. Right next to the linotype stuff was hundreds of boxes of replacement wieghts for some kind of an "as advertised on TV" wieght pouch people wore around their waists. They eventually took it all to the salvage yard for scrap.

[cannonman61]

 

Proof again that:

Knowledge is power.

[supersniper]

Lead bullets in a Glock causing kabooms is dead wrong.  The real story behind the kabooms was a lack of foresight by the engineers at Glock.  The took the 9mm and 10mm barrels and just enlarged the chambers to accomodate the 40 and 45 cal rounds making the chamber walls thinner.  Glock used the same heat-treat process as the thicker walled chambers and they became too brittle.
Most of these kabooms came from "older" guns prior to changing the heat treat process.  I have personally seen one of these cases and know the "inside story".  Glock will never admit that their process was flawed, even for a short time, hence the lead bullets in a Glock is BAD NEWS story.

Lead bullets in a Glock factory barrel should pose no problems at all.  Just be sure to use a fairly hard lead slug.

[Nickle]

I'll disagree with the Glock info, and state why. Remember, my ex owned a Glock, while we were together, and I did a bunch of research on them, plus bought some books.

The big Glock problem was created when they came out with a .40 cal Glock. They built it on the 9mm frame, and the frame was too weak for the .40. The specific problem was the cross pin in the frame. The fix was to add another cross pin, and the problem was solved.

This problem only exists on small frame Glocks up to a certain date and serial number range.

It does NOT exist on the large frame Glocks (10mm and .45), as they were not introduced until AFTER the fix was made to the small frame guns.

Also, know that Glock is said to have built the .45 on the 10mm frame, instead of build the 10mm on the .45 frame, which is what most companies did. The 10mm is higher pressure than the .45. Most folks don't realize that.

The leading issue with Glocks is due to the polygonal rifling. This rifling tends to increase the rate of leading.

Therefore, shooting cast bullets in a Glock is NOT recommended. Now, you can do it, IF (and only IF) you keep your barrel cleaned on a regular basis, and make sure to remove the excess leading. Most people either don't shoot enough cast bullets in them to be an issue, or clean them. But, that being said, there are those out there that will shoot them until they blow up. Remember, leading happens to ALL guns shooting cast bullets, not just Glocks. Glocks just lead at a faster rate.

[Mark Davis]

Bringing this thread back on course. I have been doing som research on cast bullets and will soon start experimenting on a M1 load.
That said, appleseed shoots are usually windy with dirt blowing across the fireing line. Cast bullets need lube which is usually sticky.
I may never shoot any cast M1 loads at an appleseed.
Perhaps you folks blessed with a grass fireing line can make it work.

[SamD]

There are no significant issues shooting cast in the M1 Rifle.
I have been shooting cast in mine for over 20 years and I'm pretty satisfied.
You will get some lead in the gas system and after a couple of hundred rounds it may it stop functioning.
Just clean the d@%N rifle  Takes about 90 seconds to remove it and get back in action, Pull the gas plug, run a chamber brush into the gas cyl, replace the plug and get back on the line.
Whole lot of to do over nothing.
You can make light loads (2000 fps with 170 gr bullets) with slower powders and still get reliable functioning or work for heavier loads although reliable results over 2400 fps are nearly impossible.

Sam

[Mark Davis]

Sam,
What powder are you useing? I still have not even loaded any rounds, but I have a nice pile of water dropped wheel weight 165 grainers. Planning on starting with 35 grains of 4895.

[Nickle]

From what I've seen, the best bet for using cast bullets in a gas operated semi-auto is to use slower than normal powders. 4895 will work, but 4831, 4350 and others work even better.

Of course, 4831 and 4350 run higher port pressures than the faster powders. Regular jacketed loads this can wreck an op rod, but with the slower velocity and pressure cast loads, the port pressure gets dropped to normal.

[Mark Davis]

Thanks Nickle,
I have read that also about lighter loads of slower powder, the thing driving me to 4895 is I have about 10 lbs of it and darn little 4350 or 4831.
I do know where to buy more. Dirt be darned, I plan to be shooting the M1 at the Three Forks Constitution Day shoot. Since I only have 3 10-22s and promised them to more than three people.

[SamD]

I'm currently using A bunch oif old powder I have on hand, Herters 101. It is pretty much a dupe of IMR4320.  Using 39 grains and getting  getting a nice steady 2050 fps + or - 15 fps. Not really great but it'll hold a half inch at 25 which means it'll do much better at longer range. At 25 yards the bullets haven't "gone to sleep yet.

I have 8 lbs of it in real good shape so I can't afforsd to just pitch it even if it is over 40 years old.
Any of you old powder can collectors yell if you want any cans for your collection.  I have 30 lbs of assorted Herters powders

Sam

[Pappy]

Hello Group; After much input from other Appleseeders I have added TWO .30 RIFLE moulds. They are both a gas checked hard cast lead alloy bullet sized to .309 and lubed with the best Rooster Labs has to offer.
NEWRCBS .30 165grn SIL 82152 with Hornady #7070 copper gas checks 90.00 per 1000
NEWLyman .30 170 grn RN 311291 with Hornady #7070 copper gas checks 90.00 per 1000  

PM me your needs. Pappy

[okiewino]

I have been shootong cast bullets for over thirty years and have not had a problem yet, I always use my lyman lubersizer and make my own lube with alox, beeswax and powdered teflon,mand strictly use linotype for everything except BP, where I use pure lead.
If you really want to get the higher velocity then use gas checks behind water dropped linotype. There are still a very few print shops around that you can find hand set type and I have a shop that I am still able to buy 30 lb pigs of linotype from, so just get on the phone and look around. One thing I do recomend is that you use dedicated pots for melting so as not to contaminate your pure lead.
Good shooting!
okiewino out