S&W M&P 15-22 status

[toddvw]

Is there still a ban on these rifles for AS events?

[Tennessee Beast]

Yes

[Maximum Ordinate]

Hi Todd,

Welcome to the Project Appleseed forums!

Until we have some resolution with S&W, the restriction on the 15-22 remains in place.  If that's your primary rifle and you want to attend an event, I bet we could find you a loaner rifle so you can attend!  Post on the Texas subforum or drop me a note... we'll get you squared away.

Hope you can bring a friend or family member, too!

v/r
MO

[toddvw]

I attended an AS event in DFW in June 2014 and really enjoyed it. I'd set up my 10/22 with tech sights and a sling, and brought my 15-22 along as a backup. I'd bought some short ten round mags in case I was going to shoot it prone. I saw the ban notice on a gun sub-reddit and thought "Huh" and went to the S&W site to see if there was any info about a recall or such, and found none.

Has there been any reply from or action on the part of Smith and Wesson on this issue? I see nothing on their recall page: https://www.smith-wesson.com/safety/recalls

I shoot my M&P at a .22LR 3-gun competition, as do a number of other club members. At one of the events I had someone come up and tell me that the M&P was banned from AS events (which I'd heard about online) and I thanked him and went ahead loading up my mags. He came back and tried to give me a print out and told me about the ban again. I asked him if he was telling me I could not use my rifle and he stalked off (our club has no ban on this model).

I realize that there have been some incidents with examples of these rifles, but I am literally thousands of rounds through this gun without anything other than FTF (dead ammo). I respect the rules and won't bring one to a match. I'd love to take one or both of my kids but I only have the two semi-auto .22LR (10/22 and 15-22). My other .22LR are bolt action.

I asked the question because I used the forum search function and did not see anything so thought I'd ask.

[Maximum Ordinate]

Sir,

Unfortunately, we haven't seen any forward movement on the issue with S&W. 

It means a lot when a father says he's gonna bring his children for us to teach.  Thank you - that's a huge compliment for the Texas crew.  Once you find an event that works for your schedules, drop me a note or post in the Texas subforum.  We'll find some loaner rifles for y'all.

v/r
MO

[NJrefugee]

Sir,

I instruct in DFW and Waco. As Maximum Ordinate said, we got you covered. Just let us know in advance of an event and we will have as many loaner rifles as you need. Looking forward to seeing you at an event soon.

Regards,
NJrefugee

[toddvw]

I appreciate the follow-up. It's too bad that S&W cannot do anything. They're great guns.

I guess I have an excuse to start trolling around for my next 10-22 (a takedown with a threaded muzzle) :-)

Either that or one of my kids can use the 10-22 and I'll shoot my "regular" AR if it's not a rimfire only event (or perhaps take you up on your generous offer of a loaner gun).

Yes, the AS instruction was top notch and I appreciated the history, too. As an immigrant (and now citizen) I've enjoyed soaking it all in. 

Instruction is important to me. I know my way around guns but have no illusions about my skill nor my ability to pass it on. Last year I took my then 15 y.o. son on a four day handgun course, and I'm taking my 14 y.o. daughter next month on the same course.

Getting out to an AS has been a challenge with them being so busy with their other activities, but it's always on the list (and also always overcome-by-events) and hopefully we'll make it out sometime.

Thanks for the prompt info.

[Mercedes]

Hi Todd,

Don't know where you live, but if you're in North Texas we are currently offering a one-day event in Ft Worth (just north of the Texas Motor Speedway) each month, with a two-day LadySeed the first weekend of April and a 2-day Patriot Day event the last weekend of April.  The Ft Worth events are posted through June so far.

Waco offers two-day events on the third weekend of every month.  If you're out West, El Paso has quarterly events.  If you're south, Bryan Station, San Antonio, and Alice are usually every other month except when it's very hot, as all three ranges have no shelter.   We also have Known Distance events in Bryan Station, New Braunfels, and El Paso.  Working on North Texas, but may take another year to get set up.

Events are always being added, so keep checking the calendar of events.

Debbie

[Lomshek]

On the 15-22 ban I compiled and sent this email to my instructors.  It comes from a number of different posts on the forum but none of them had all the info in one place.

I got a question about the M&P 15-22 still being banned at Appleseed.  The timing was fortuitous as I'd just been digging deeper on it and found some additional info on why that probably won't change.

While other .22's have had their share of random issues the M&P 15-22 has had a lot of verified serious safety issues that convinced the Appleseed Oversight Committee (AOC) to take the action they did to ban it.

Here's a quick rundown of the problems…
1-   Out of battery discharges.  Lots of .22 rifles can fire out of battery if circumstances are just right but the M&P 15-22 has an excessively large number of occasions of this happening at Appleseeds.  That large number of occurrences suggests an issue that goes beyond the usual problems of a blowback .22LR action's vulnerabilities. 

In one incident a participant was injured when the M&P 15-22 beside her fired out of battery and fragments of the case penetrated deeply enough into her arm to require minor surgery to remove it.
(Safety concerns are one reason I'm a fan of rotating firing lines vs. packing the lines with people inches from each other.)

Here's a YouTube video where a person shows it will fire when the bolt is a dime's thickness out of battery.  Most .22 designs prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin when the bolt moves back that far.
https://youtu.be/gRi_J0BP35w

Here are a number of other videos Appleseed has compiled of occasions that made their way to YouTube about M&P 15-22s firing out of battery.
https://youtu.be/rVfNN4dzx6k
https://youtu.be/szAz5RVNXPw
https://youtu.be/KwM6AxFthcY
 
2-   Firing with the safety on safe.  A number of cases of the rifle firing with the safety on in unmodified rifles (all factory OEM parts) suggests a lot of out of spec parts or improper fire control group hole spacing.
https://youtu.be/QvTFlNPEPso

3-   Hammer and trigger pins walking out.  The AR-15 trigger and hammer pins are designed to be retained by a J spring in the middle of the hammer (hammer pin) and the legs of the hammer spring (trigger pin).  The springs engage grooves machined in the pins so that both pins are trapped by spring tension. 

There have been multiple reports of runaway M&P 15-22s where they fire full auto without the finger touching the trigger.  The cause has been traced back to hammer or trigger pins walking out of their holes in the receiver.  That allows the hammer or trigger to tip and move freely without the trigger or disconnector stopping it.

This would suggest that the M&P 15-22 pins and springs are not engaging properly creating an extremely unsafe condition.  You can imagine the fun of a rifle emptying it's 30 round magazine when you chamber a round in whatever direction the barrel happens to be pointing at that moment. 
https://youtu.be/iJ50bNgFntg

As you know anecdotal stories is not the same thing as data but enough individual events begin to tell a story of a serious problem with the M&P 15-22.  After reading all these stories and watching the videos I'm convinced Appleseed did the right thing.

Based on S&W's ducking of the issue the ban is expected to remain in place.  As long as their attitude is "Problem?  What problem?" no progress can be made.  If that changes Appleseed will let us know.

Besides the a 10/22 or building your own AR .22 a person could also buy a Tippman M4-22.
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=54831.0

[toddvw]

Thank you to everybody for the input and information, as well as generous offers of loaner guns. I get the feeling that y'all are super serious about this whole project and that's awesome.

[Mutant Texan]

The problem with the M&P 15-22 is that it has been known to have out of battery detonations.  This can happen with semi-auto .22 LR rifles.  Unlike the other semi-auto .22 LR rifles, the M&P 15-22 seems to belch out parts from the bolt at high velocities and thus present a safety hazard.

I recommend buying a CMMG dedicated upper (I own 2) and a bunch of cheap Black Dog magazines.  You could also install a mag insert for the AR-15 that allows you to use the M&P 15-22 magazines for the full bolt hold open functionality.

I also recommend the CMMG conversion kit.  It will not be as precise as the standard AR because the .22 lr bullets don't like AR barrels, but it is good enough to plink with.  I converted my kit into a dedicated upper and I am much happier with the results.

[toddvw]

I recommend buying a CMMG dedicated upper (I own 2) and a bunch of cheap Black Dog magazines.  You could also install a mag insert for the AR-15 that allows you to use the M&P 15-22 magazines for the full bolt hold open functionality.

What do you mean by this? That there is a CMMG dedicated AR upper that will take the 15-22 mags? I have a bunch of them and that would be something to move me towards gear like that (rather than having to get totally new everything).

[Monkey]

I recommend buying a CMMG dedicated upper (I own 2) and a bunch of cheap Black Dog magazines.  You could also install a mag insert for the AR-15 that allows you to use the M&P 15-22 magazines for the full bolt hold open functionality.

What do you mean by this? That there is a CMMG dedicated AR upper that will take the 15-22 mags? I have a bunch of them and that would be something to move me towards gear like that (rather than having to get totally new everything).

Link here.

[toddvw]

Cool - thanks!

[Super Trooper]

Link here.

What kind of sorcery is this.  Thanks for the link.

[Leadlined]

I recommend buying a CMMG dedicated upper (I own 2) and a bunch of cheap Black Dog magazines.  You could also install a mag insert for the AR-15 that allows you to use the M&P 15-22 magazines for the full bolt hold open functionality.

What do you mean by this? That there is a CMMG dedicated AR upper that will take the 15-22 mags? I have a bunch of them and that would be something to move me towards gear like that (rather than having to get totally new everything).

Link here.

Or you could just buy a dedicated 22lr upper so you have a correct, accurate barrel and don't dirty up your normal upper shooting 22lr with it.

[Mutant Texan]

I recommend buying a CMMG dedicated upper (I own 2) and a bunch of cheap Black Dog magazines.  You could also install a mag insert for the AR-15 that allows you to use the M&P 15-22 magazines for the full bolt hold open functionality.

What do you mean by this? That there is a CMMG dedicated AR upper that will take the 15-22 mags? I have a bunch of them and that would be something to move me towards gear like that (rather than having to get totally new everything).

Link here.

Or you could just buy a dedicated 22lr upper so you have a correct, accurate barrel and don't dirty up your normal upper shooting 22lr with it.

I have spent a small fortune on .22LR based AR platforms and I know what works and what does not work.  I recommend going with a dedicated .22LR upper over the kit.  I only pointed out that the CMMG kits were available and that they were not as good as the dedicated upper.  They are however a cheap way to get an AR-15 based plinker.  Go with the old school AR-15 with the 1 in 12 twist for better accuracy if you go with the conversion kit. 

Stay away from the rifles that look like the AR-15.  Instead buy the real thing.  I bought the Colt M4 22 from Umarex as an impulse buy many years ago and spent a lot of time and money to "fix" the problems that it came with.  I made a forum post about it a long time ago and you can search it out if you want the details.  It shoots well now but it was not worth the effort in time/money fixing it.  These dedicated uppers for the AR-15 are the way to go IMHO.  You can buy a good AR-15 and have multiple uppers for the same carbine.

I also love these .22 LR AR based platforms because you can use the cheap Blackdog magazines.  I bought a few dozen of their clearance 10 round magazines a few years ago and a few of their 15 round magazines.  The 10 round and 15 round mags were the same size!  I figured out real quick that you could tear them down by removing the screws holding them together and using a punch to knock out the peg limiting them to 10 rounds and increased the capacity to 15 round magazines.  I think I paid $3 for the 10 round mags a few years ago and $5 for the 15 round mags.  I have a box full of them and I have never had an issue with them.  I also load them quickly using the Lightning magazine reloader.

Palmetto is getting more of my money soon!  I bought an AR-10 rifle from them last Christmas and it has been a good buy.  CMMG dedicated .22LR uppers are going to run around $600 even if they are on sale.  This Palmetto upper has the nitrided barrel!

[Flint Locke]

Looks like they are addressing this issue now!
https://www.smith-wesson.com/mp15-22-consumer-safety-alert

[Cable___Guy]

After reading what they sent this will only account for the out of spec bolts. This will not change the design of the bolt or fix the underlying issue.   

[toddvw]

What they describe seems to be exactly what people were complaining about - out of battery detonation and runaway firing. Are you sure that this will not address the issue?

[airplanejoe]

Maybe finally the "bean counters" determined that the risks of denial exceeded the benefits of rewards. That is the way industries work.
aj

[Kennebago]

Maybe finally the "bean counters" determined that the risks of denial exceeded the benefits of rewards. That is the way industries work.
aj

My experience is that in-house bean counters don't assess legal risk, they just tell you how much to accrue and what GL number to hit.

General counsel tells you when the accrual is necessary.

[airplanejoe]

Distinction without a difference.

aj

[Leadlined]

Seems to me that a lot of the big announcements of new guns lately have focused on the lowly 22LR.  10/22 knockoffs, precision rifles, AR clones, and whatever that pistol is that KelTec made.

I suspect S&W came to the conclusion that they couldn't keep having this dog their top offering in that market.  The industry clearly sees potential there.

[Mutant Texan]

Seems to me that a lot of the big announcements of new guns lately have focused on the lowly 22LR.  10/22 knockoffs, precision rifles, AR clones, and whatever that pistol is that KelTec made.

I suspect S&W came to the conclusion that they couldn't keep having this dog their top offering in that market.  The industry clearly sees potential there.

The reason why these 22 lr firearms became so popular is all about the MSR concept in a cheap to feed platform.  The ability to shoot cheap .22 LR in any of my AR firearms is why I bought the CMMG conversion kit.  I was happy with the results for plinking purposes.  I then bought a dedicated upper and converted my CMMG kit into dedicated upper with a 20" barrel.  Those two uppers have barrels with slower twist rates that the .22 LR prefer.  I would highly recommend to anyone wanting a .22 LR in a MSR to simply buy a nice AR-15 that they like and buy the dedicated upper separately and skip buying the crap from S&W, Umarex, and Mossberg.  I built a dedicated upper and the process of building it was the exact same as building a centerfire upper minus the gas block/tube. 

Prior to me buying the CMMG kits, I seriously looked at the S&W 15-22 and passed it up because it was "plastic".  I instead bought the Umarex Colt .22 M4 and regret it.  I had many frustrating issues with it and it took me years to finally nail them down and solve the problems.  It is a good shooter now but I wish I had just bought the dedicated upper to start with.  I was finally able to get a longer hand guard for the Umarex Colt M4 carbine by buying the quad rail meant for the M-16 clone from Umarex because standard AR-15 hand guards are not compatible with the Umarex products.  The hand guard on the Umarex is actually is better secured to that gun than many of my "real" AR-15 uppers with friction fit hand guards over the barrel nut.  The Umarex hand guard is threaded on the inside and is screwed onto the barrel nut that has outside threads that engage the hand guard.  It was not until last week that I found a better system than the one Umarex used.  I built an upper from an Aero Precision enhanced upper and hand guard.  That is by far the best system that I have ever seen for securing a free float hand guard on an AR-15 upper.

I wish they would figure out a way to make a 22 Magnum work in an AR platform.  Alexandria firearms had a prototype but they could not get it to work well enough to sell it.  The 22 magnum diameter is the same as the 5.56x45 bullet (0.224") and would make a great conversion for the older AR rifles with the 1 in 12 twist rates. 

Despite my love for the .22 LR eating MSR, I would discourage anyone from using it at their first Appleseed shoot.  The most precise .22LR that I own is my Wally World Special Ruger 10-22 with a stainless steel 22" barrel with Tech Sights.  That gun has a huge sight radius and I have scored best on it than any of my other .22 LR firearms.  I have to get my Rock River Arms NMA2 to surpass the capabilities of my Ruger.  I will attach pics of the Ruger.

[Kennebago]

I suspect S&W came to the conclusion that they couldn't keep having this dog their top offering in that market.  The industry clearly sees potential there.

Possible, but I think it's more likely they just built up enough complaints to put it on their quality engineers' queue and it finally rotated to the top. Mine's a less interesting scenario though.

The recalls I've seen firsthand all played out the same way. Quality engineers ID'd the problem, then the c-suite, counsel and operations / FP&A / product mgmt heavies (probably the controller too) worked through 1) what are the hypothetical risks of doing nothing, 2) what are the possible scenarios when we do recall (plus anything outside of incurring simple repair cost - i.e. brand risk), 3) which ones are most likely, 4) dollarize them so we know what booking reserves would do to the financial statements, and 5) have ops draw up plans to execute the repairs. Then a few rounds of "are we reeeeeeally sure about XYZ estimate?" and the go-ahead.

Lowly staff accountants would then, at the butt-end of the process, book a reserve and the company would take it public.

[Lomshek]

This video from the S&W M&P owner's Facebook group popped up on my feed today.

The guy says it was a new out of the box (like newly bought recently) 15-22 that fires full auto.

Here's the link.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/smithwessonmp/permalink/10157241456692049

From his post.  Besides the full auto function....

also fired on safety by releasing the bolt not touching the trigger

S&W is going to have to go to extraordinary circumstances before I'd be comfortable with one on my line.