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Building a 10/22 for Appleseed.

Started by Radioflyer97, September 27, 2018, 11:08:50 PM

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Radioflyer97

After shooting my first Project Appleseed, I'm hooked on the idea of precision self-stabilized shooting. The only .22 I had at the time of the shoot was a Savage MK 2 designed for bench-rest shooting. I did somewhat decent (192 by my 2nd day AQT) but the manipulation of the bolt after each shot cost precious time especially on stages 2 and 3.

I'm planning a 10/22 based platform specifically to minimize effort between shots to better focus on technique and would like to keep the entire package in the $700-800 range.

So far the only thing I'm dead-set on is I would like a Victor Company Titan 1022 stock, short travel 2-stage trigger and I'm a fan of the Nikon ProStaff Rimfire II 4-12x scope.

I'm looking for recommendations for barrel, trigger (make/model) and any other modifications that would help with speed and ease of manipulation particularly in the prone position.

Thoughts?
"Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh…everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?"

(It's always the equipment's fault... :P)

Kennebago

Does that budget include, or exclude glass?
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

MCZplus

Marlin_99C-22LR
UTG BugBuster 3-9x32mm @ 9X  (decent scope - illumination if desired)
shot 208 at Lincoln NE last Apr 2018 (dirty bolt kept jamming)
Aguila 22lr 40gr 1255 fps

CZ512-22LR
Nikon Rimfire2, 3-9x40mm @ 9X  (very good scope)
RWS Target 22lr 40gr 1082 fps (Orange)
shot 216/219 at Volga IA last Sept 2017

Mike
1st Appleseed: 2015-10-03_Volga_IA
3rd Appleseed/Rifleman(216/219): 2017-09-23_Volga_IA
5th Appleseed/Rifleman(225): 2019-09-28_Volga_IA

Kennebago

#3
So I'll take a stab at answering your question, which was about 10/22s specifically, and with your specific parts list in mind.

Disclaimer: Absolutely none of what I am about to talk about is necessary to shoot Rifleman. None of it. Cold truth.

With that said, I'll give you my honest opinion, sticking to your specifications. Rusty is going to scowl at me.

SO...

My first thought is that you could end up a little tight, because that glass plus the stock is ~$300.

If you're dead-set on a top-shelf two-stage trigger, you want Kidd's self-contained unit. That's almost $300 by itself, so you're at ~$600 and don't have a barreled action yet.

Ruger receivers & bolts are like $175-$200 on Gunbroker right now, but I would recommend you hunt around and find a stripped factory receiver for cheaper (linked below). Or, you can buy aftermarket (Kidd, etc) for more money. A reasonable high-quality barrel (Kidd, Volquartsen) will easily be $200-$300 (or more), which will be sticky for you at that budget. Alternatively, you could go with a Feddersen or Green Mountain, which will be pretty decent too, for less money (Feddersen at $150-$180, Green Mountain as low as ~$115 for a plain blued bull).

Even with an inexpensive barrel and inexpensive Ruger parts, you're looking at:

$170  Titan stock                    
$140  Scope                            
$290  Two-stage Kidd trigger (link)         
$70    Stripped Ruger receiver plus xfer fees (found here)
$45    Ruger bolt & small parts    (Brownell's)   
$115  Green Mountain bbl (this one)       

Total of ~$830. And you still need mags.

I would almost do a build that involves high-end parts like Kidd's trigger in stages if you aren't quite ready for a monster bill - get a basic 10/22, drop in the trigger and scope it, then add upgrades as you go. You can shoot Rifleman just fine with a box-stock 10/22.

And personally, if I'm putting fancy stock and Kidd trigger unit money into a 10/22 off the bat, I'm probably looking hard at a Volquartsen, Kidd, Lilja or Shilen pipe to go with it because for (relatively) reasonable incremental spend I can crush more potential out of it.

I would recommend not doing that, and going for a relatively simple build to start.
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

TrapperPete

first , there is nothing wrong with the Savage you can absolutely shoot rifleman with it ,  I did with a stock Savage MKII-FV with a 4-12 bushnell.

will you have to work harder , yes , is that bad ? no not really it will make you a better shooter.

think about your goal

but there is nothing wrong with wanting good kit.

you don't have to spend a lot to make a 10/22 shoot quite well and you can do it in stages if you start with a new or used 10/22

you have gotten good recommendations from others so the only think I will mostly add I would do an adjustable stock because you asked about what makes going from position to position easier. as you go from standing upright to hunched over in seated to prone your head moves farther forward on the stock this can make eye relief an issue , having the ability to adjust the length of the stock makes this easier. part of what I enjoy about the AR15 is that I have the stock all the way out with an extended pad on it of .7 inches.
in seated I am in 1 click and standing 2 clicks  each click represents right about 3/4 of an inch which doesn't sound like a lot but it is the difference in 12 1/2 LOP and 14 LOP it also shifts the balance point closer to your body.


pennys dad

Ok, sounds like fun.


Start with the Ruger 10/22 Target Lite.
Change stock to Hunter X-22 Stock - Ruger so you can have an adjustable height check riser and m-lok on the hand guard.
Change all bolt parts to polished parts.
Change trigger with drop in Timney or Kidd
Use Warne low 30mm rings
Use Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6x24 SFP Riflescope with MRAD reticle
Change to over sized mag release, change auto bolt release
About $1300

FiremanBob

You do not need expensive gear to shoot Rifleman. And expensive gear will not get you there if  you aren't executing the fundamentals well enough. It would be hard to count the number of students I've seen who can't get beyond 200 scores with fancy, aftermarket rifles.

If I were you, I'd upgrade the trigger first (less than $100 from Brimstone, a BX, or a Volquartsen hammer kit). Second, I would get a Volquartsen extended scope rail so that you can mount the scope far enough forward to work for you in prone. Prone is the position that puts your head farthest forward and too many people have their eyes too close to the scope for correct alignment.

And that's all I would do. If you really want to spend $$ on a barrel, go with a short, heavy taper or 16" bull from Green Mountain - best value for dollar of the aftermarket barrels unless you want benchrest accuracy. But it shouldn't be needed.
Author of "The 10/22 Companion: How to Operate, Troubleshoot, Maintain and Improve Your Ruger 10/22"

"Remember constantly that a nation cannot long remain strong when each man in it is individually weak, and that neither social forms nor political schemes have yet been found that can make a people energetic by composing it of pusillanimous and soft citizens." - de Tocqueville

airplanejoe

My .02 cents.

1. Use the money to buy more ammo. Then practice with a purpose. Your Savage MK2 is more than capable of shooting score (only if you do your part). Reading your post, looks to me that the issue was weapon familiarity. Remember the cliche "it's the indian and not the arrow".

2. If you're convinced a semi auto is the key, a stock Ruger 10-22 would be a good choice. Slowly upgrade it per advice of other forum members.

Good luck.

aj

Maximum Ordinate

Quote from: Kennebago on September 28, 2018, 12:27:41 AM
Disclaimer: Absolutely none of what I am about to talk about is necessary to shoot Rifleman. None of it. Cold truth.

With that said, I'll give you my honest opinion, sticking to your specifications. Rusty is going to scowl at me.

Not at all. You're a man who knows very well what he's about.  And your disclaimer is cold hard math.

Shooting a Rifleman score is NOT about equipment.  It's about rock solid fundamentals!

Check this out...



This is 10 shots fired from a new, basic Ruger 10/22 at 25m. Cleaned, oiled, with Tech Sights and a sling. Fired in prone position, one shot per breath, with nothing but a sling for support. Oh - the shooter was wearing a SUIT. #gentlemanrifleman

You don't need a tricked out rifle with expensive upgrades.
You don't need a scope.
You don't need fancy range clothes or boots.
You don't need a special shooting jacket.
You just need the desire to learn something new and improve yourself.

v/r
MO
"If you're going to be a Rifleman, be a KD Rifleman.  We should all strive to be like Ephraim Brank."
-Ramblin' Wreck

We're in the Liberty business.  Stay on Mission & Stay on Message.

Want to be a more effective Instructor?  Visit Appleseed Academy.

HammBone

Seconded. Thirded?

"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian." (No offense meant to our Native American brethren. That's just the old saying.)

I took a 40 year old 10/22 to my first AS. I did my homework and had it fitted with Tech Sights, a ratty old GI sling, and it's only "secret weapon" - a Kidd Trigger. I shot a 238 on Day 1.

BUT, having a tack driver rifle does allow you to remove that variable from your practice toward multiple 250 scores (hopefully).

My only other recommendation is to forego the variable power scope. Plop a Weaver K4 on it and you're good. You'll be able to get it further forward in the rings without an extended base.

My $0.02.
1st Appleseed/Cleared Redcoat/Rifleman: 4/20/2013 - Miamisburg, OH
1st Known Distance Rifleman: 11/3/2018 - New Philadelphia, OH
1st Winterseed Rifleman: 1/26/2019 - Liberty Center, OH
Donned the Red Hat: 6/16/2019 - Wilmington, OH

"Beware of an old man in a profession where men usually die young." - Anonymous

"Blessed is the man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight." - Jeff Cooper

TOMINCT

 Spend less than $700 on the equipment use the balance for another Appleseed(s) and a case of ammo. I've not seen any currently produced adult sized 22 lr rifle that cannot fire a Riflemen score.

This includes  bolt actions. . I've seen several fire well above the 210 threshold with stock Marlin and Savage bolt actions and do it on a regular basis. A decent, not $$$, 4x scope is all you need to do it, or Tech Sights as stated previously.  Get in some practice on 4 moa squares, don't worry about AQT's. if you hit it well on squares you will destroy the AQT when the time comes.
crak's battle road IBC 10-09
Ramseur 2-12!
ninsho's battle road IBC 6-13

2 clicks low

Here is what you need:
Ruger Carbine                      $275
Ruger trigger                        $ 49 
VQ extended scope mount   $ 40
Simmons .22 Mag scope       $ 50
Sling                                      $ 15
Swivels                                 $ 10
                                             $439
5000 Rounds Blazer              $199
                                              $638

Trigger is optional, you could leave it out and not notice any difference in scores.
Also do the bolt release modification (see youtube) or buy one for $10.

Most important item is the 5000 rounds of Blazer (Palmetto State Armory)

2cl
"Semper Fritos" 1st. Chicago Chairborne

LogCabinShooter

If you want an accurate .22, by all means, build one. If you want to do well in at Appleseed events, practice. Last year I shot a 235 with a bone stock Remington 597 HB, and my 14 year old daughter shot a 231 twice with a bone stock 10/22, both shooting bulk CCI Blazers. Fundamentals is the key. You can't buy talent.

Mike AKA Bandaid

Quote from: LogCabinShooter on September 28, 2018, 01:14:37 PM
If you want an accurate .22, by all means, build one. If you want to do well in at Appleseed events, practice. Last year I shot a 235 with a bone stock Remington 597 HB, and my 14 year old daughter shot a 231 twice with a bone stock 10/22, both shooting bulk CCI Blazers. Fundamentals is the key. You can't buy talent.

:yeahthat:

Well said.
Rifleman 04/2018-Red Coat Cleared 04/2018
Orange Hat 06/2018
Known Distance Rifleman 07/2018-PNW Morgans Rifleman 07/2018
Red Hat 09/2018
Distinguished 10/2018
IIT - Returning to the Cadre! 10/2024
Red Hat 03/2025
Pro Tip: Never annoy your Urologist/Surgeon before your vasectomy.

Timber Wolf

I purchased one of these: https://www.cdnnsports.com/rugerr-10-22r-22lr-copper-mica-stock.html?___SID=U#.W66tJmyWzic for my daughter ($250ish transferred).  It has a stock that takes different inserts for scope or irons height cheek weld or length of pull.  As it came with the "long" iron sight insert I ordered the scope height short insert ($25) for her use.  I added a BX trigger ($50) from Ruger.  Extended scope mount, can't remember which one, $35ish.  Simmonds hand-me-down scope off my rifle, but let's value it at $150.  Rings, auto bolt release $35ish.  So, $545 if my math is correct, add sling & swivels of course.  She (15 yo IIT1) routinely shoots AQTs in the high 2teens (216-218) and has been in the 220s on occasion.  My rifle on the other hand, well no way am I adding it up!   

Charles McKinley

Below are the groups shot and the rifle.
Ammo CCI Standard velocity under 8 cents a round and Blazer under 5 cents a round.
Rifle 10/22 with the Ruger Target barrel but standard trigger and PINK Houge stock $269+ tax and background check,  EGW rail $40 and a 4x Simmons scope about $50. ( I would like better glass for longer distances but not needed for 25m.)

If you are tall with long arms get a stock that fits you and spend the rest on practice. 

Dry fire only cost time.

I've shot a 229 with a Mossberg Half-pint Plinkster (bolt) $132 out the door with the ugliest little 4x scope.  So your Savage will work if you want to.

I spent the weekend pulling the last unfired live round out of an expensive "target" barrel at the New Philly, OH at the last shoot.

It's your $$$ but I wouldn't put a lot into a 10/22.  It just isn't necessary.

Chuck
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

Lomshek

Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on September 28, 2018, 09:26:20 AM

You don't need a scope.


Well some people don't but some do.  Can't expect someone with bad eyes to use irons anymore than we would expect a person whose legs don't work to run a marathon. 

They have wheelchair races for a reason.  Some folks need equipment to overcome physical limitations.

Lomshek

Quote from: 2 clicks low on September 28, 2018, 12:50:17 PM
Here is what you need:
Ruger Carbine                      $275
Ruger trigger                        $ 49 
VQ extended scope mount   $ 40
Simmons .22 Mag scope       $ 50
Sling                                      $ 15
Swivels                                 $ 10
                                             $439
5000 Rounds Blazer              $199
                                              $638

Trigger is optional, you could leave it out and not notice any difference in scores.
Also do the bolt release modification (see youtube) or buy one for $10.

Most important item is the 5000 rounds of Blazer (Palmetto State Armory)

2cl

I'd skip the trigger and get a Blackhawk Axiom stock instead.  The pistol grip and collapsible stock with free floated barrel will do more for better shooting than a lighter trigger.  The fact that the Axiom will fit more people correctly is a huge bonus.

Extended scope mount is very important.  Totally agree that a basic scope is all you need. 

Kennebago

OP, just my opinion, sample of one, etc:

I'm not so sure I would advise stepping down in glass. If you are looking for a serious-use rimfire rifle (to the degree that such a thing exists) and will be shooting with magnified optics only, I would buy the best scope your budget allows. As in, you may want to prioritize it over other concerns within reason. You can make a rifle significantly better one piece at a time, but you generally cannot do that with glass. In terms of the AQT (i.e. slung shooting to a 4 MOA standard), even very bad triggers can be dealt with until you upgrade. A poor-quality scope, on the other hand, is going to fight you no matter what.

I find that you get what you pay for with regard to scopes, and sometimes you don't even get quite as much as you should. Cheap scopes just aren't worth it, in my experience. With that said, I am biased as mostly a bolt-action shooter. After triggers and glass, the list of things for me to worry about is usually short.

There are only a handful of scopes I personally bother with for general-purpose rimfire shooting now - Mueller APVs and Weaver Classic Rimfire 4x28s for the inexpensive options, and for a step up the Weaver V16 (my personal favorite). I have had good experiences with several models in the Prostaff line, so I think you're good there.
Wodan bood Mimir zijn oog
doch zou hij beter zien

Charles McKinley

I am one of the people that "need" a scope.  I second Kennebogo's advice better glass is worth the money.  Also with good mounts it can reliably be moved between rifles.  I would definitely go with glass over adding a barrel.
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

Bobasan

Wow, where to begin.

As others have stated previously you can shoot rifleman with a stock 10/22 and CCI SV any day of the week.  Just add sling swivel studs, tech sights or a okay scope and you are good to go.  Get in some solid dry practice and you'll be on your way.

But if you are set to build a rifle with improved accuracy and operation make sure you understand what things improve each area.  Accuracy will come from stock to action interface improvements, chambering, muzzle crowning, barrel free floating, etc.  Pretty much everything else you do will be an operational improvement making it easier to use the rifle.

To give you an idea of an accurized build I'll use examples of a half dozen+ rifles I just accurized with forum members Catdoc and Bloodshot.  Yes they are both crazy for buying and building up so many rifles, moving on.  We started with the stock 10/22s that were all just a bit better than 3MOA at 50yds. Accurizing the rifles we worked with the stock parts for the most part, only replacing a few springs, the extractor and the bolt retention pin.  The stock barrels and actions were machined a bit and the stocks were modified.  In the end each of the rifles are all a bit better than 1MOA at 100yds with CCI SV. 

Here's the list of the specific things that were done to each of the rifles.  Note that I've also placed the improvements in the order of most beneficial to least in my opinion.


Accuracy improvements
   Cut back chamber .070" and recut extractor slot(stock barrel)
   Recessed target crown (stock barrel)
   Free floated barrel
   Glass bedded receiver
   Added rear lug to receiver (way overkill and generally unnecessary)

Operational improvements
   Added Kydex adjustable cheek rest
   Added Sling swivel studs (screwed into stock not on barrel band)
   Added Extended Picattiny rail (Allows scope to be mounted with proper eye relief)
   Added extended butt pad (For taller shooters adding a little length of pull helps)
        Added extra long extended magazine release
   Added Simmons scope (parallax adjustable)
   Modified bolt catch to allow slingshot of bolt
   Replaced extractor and extractor spring
   Radiused the rear of the bolt
   Polished bolt
   Polished firing pin
   Replaced bolt retention pin with a buffering one
   Replaced hammer spring with heavier one


In practical usage the three of us we were able to shoot 4 of the 6 rifles at an Appleseed recently and of those 4 all of them returned Distinguished scores for us and all but one with stock triggers, Bloodshot has a BX trigger in one of his rifles.

So with all that what I am trying to get at is know what improvements give the most bang for your buck.  The Titan stock you reference will give you a pretty good action to stock interface which will be a big accuracy improvement but the trigger and scope really won't make your planned setup more accurate, just easier to shoot.  Operationally the stock is also a big boost with better wrist angle, length of pull, etc.  Hopefully this helps you plan your build.  As with everyone else here just my 2 cents.

Bobasan
What goes around comes around and sometimes, for good or ill, I am what is coming around.

Charles McKinley

Bobasan,

Welcome!

Thank you for that post.  One of the principles of AS is "Simplicity and Precision in all things."  You stated what to do and WHY and order of importance.  Please add it to the other post. 

Chuck
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

airplanejoe

Folks,

This has been a very interesting posting. Lots of good info. But why? I remember, not too long ago, the norm was "... rack grade rifle with rack grade ammo...". Unless your goal is chasing higher numbers (Appleseed encourages that train of thought by rewarding it with patches), a Ruger 10-22 as it comes out of the box and Winchester white box ammo should suffice. By golly, you are shooting at only 25 meters. If you think you need a "Liberty Training Rifle" add some sort of peep sight. The indian and not the arrow.

Quote from: Lomshek on September 30, 2018, 11:24:34 PM
Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on September 28, 2018, 09:26:20 AM

You don't need a scope.


Well some people don't but some do.  Can't expect someone with bad eyes to use irons anymore than we would expect a person whose legs don't work to run a marathon. 

They have wheelchair races for a reason.  Some folks need equipment to overcome physical limitations.

I fully agree with Lomseck on this posting. Isn't that one of the the reasons that now we have an "adaptive appleseed" program?

aj

IXOYE

Lots of great advice here. I tend to agree with keeping it simple. But I do have a friend who built a custom 10/22. The only part in it that is Ruger is the magazine. It is a dream to shoot, but it was over $1,000. I too started out with a bolt action and told myself I needed a semi-auto since I couldn't get all my shots off in stage two about 20% of the time. I now have a hand full of 10/22's that I use for loaner rifles. Eventually my grandkids are all going to get them. As it turns out, you really can shoot rifleman with a bolt action though. See the end of this post for the proof.

Here are my thoughts on mods for the standard 10/22.

Trigger - send it to Brimstone and get their level II work done on it (~ $80 with shipping). Or buy the BX trigger.

Iron Sights - Tech sights

Scopes - Get a good quality fixed 4X if you want a scope. You don't need more magnification, and you get better glass, more light, and more durability from a fixed optic. I got my Nikon on sale for $90
Scope Rail - I use the EGW extended rail so I can mount the scope forward like everyone else has mentioned (~$40)
Scope Rings - Get good quality rings. There is nothing more irritating than having your scope walk on you. I got Burris for ~$50 on Optics Planet.
Cheek Riser - I made myself a custom cheek riser but it was a lot of work getting the wood to match the profile of the stock. Now I print them with my 3D printer. The adjustable kydex ones are around $20.
So the whole scope setup is around $200, the stock rifle was bought on sale for $200, and trigger work was $80, making the total cost $480.

For convenience I add the bolt release modification. If you have a dremmel tool it will cost you $5 for the right bit and then you can use it to help your friends as well. Or you can order one for about $10. This is the absolute best upgrade from a convenience standpoint.

The other convenience thing I've done is drill a hold in the rear of the receiver so I can clean from the back. The dimensions can be found on-line so you can drill the hole exactly in line with the barrel. So the hole in the receiver also serves as a rod guide. You won't see this hole when the receiver is mounted in the stock. I now have a hand-held fixture that I made so I can do one in two minutes with a hand drill.

So with all of that, how does my standard 10/22 with Brimstone trigger and 4X scope shoot? Well, my best score is a 248. I can do almost as good with iron sights if I have a high contrast target. But with the AQT there isn't enough contrast and my old eyes don't do as well. But I can still shoot rifleman with iron sights. We had a young lady two weeks ago shoot a 236 with Tech Sights and a Brimstone trigger.

I do like the comments about developing your skill. Having gone down the road and done well with the semi-auto I decided I really needed to see what I could do with a bolt action. While I feel pretty good about shooting consistently in the 240 range with my semi-auto, I'm most proud of shooting a 243 with my CZ455 bolt action.

The only thing necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing! (Edmund Burke)

Maximum Ordinate

Quote from: Lomshek on September 30, 2018, 11:24:34 PM
Well some people don't but some do.  Can't expect someone with bad eyes to use irons anymore than we would expect a person whose legs don't work to run a marathon. 

They have wheelchair races for a reason.  Some folks need equipment to overcome physical limitations.

Lomshek,

Rules of thumb have exceptions.  However, I still assert that most of our shooters don't need a scope.  They might like one or prefer one (in which case I say, "Liberty, yo".)  But most of them don't need one to shoot well.  What they need most is teachable attitude and perseverance to master fundamentals.

I don't wish to reignite a scope vs irons debate.  Shooting with a scope is certainly easier.  We see it on our lines. The USMC saw gains when switching to the 4x ACOG.  Service Rifle scores have risen in the couple of years since permitting scopes in competition.  Fundamentals like Step 4 are easier to accomplish with a scope.

My favorite Appleseed story is about the shooter who arrived with a stock 10/22 with leaf sights.  He refused to accept a loaner that would make it easier for him to shoot.  It took him several weekends to qualify, but he did it with his own equipment.  While persevering through that challenge, he grew as a person.  That's a true Rifleman! 

Mostly/usually/generally/normally... people vastly underestimate their potential to shoot with irons.  I see folks start shooting more irons after building confidence (and fundamentals) shooting scoped rifles.  They find they *can* shoot a Rifleman score with irons.  The stumbling block was mental after all. 

I love firearms of all types: scopes, irons, loud, suppressed, select fire, semi, bolt action, tubefed, break-open, beltfed, whatever.  Love 'em all.  Build or buy what makes you happy.   O0

v/r
MO
"If you're going to be a Rifleman, be a KD Rifleman.  We should all strive to be like Ephraim Brank."
-Ramblin' Wreck

We're in the Liberty business.  Stay on Mission & Stay on Message.

Want to be a more effective Instructor?  Visit Appleseed Academy.

TrapperPete

#25
"only accurate rifles are interesting " Townsend Whelen.

since were tossing down quotes I like that one.

My take on it is that any point the Arrow should be 1 better than the Indian.

meaning that if I have a rifle that is 1MOA from the bench and I get down in a slow fire prone and shoot several 1.25 to 1.5 moa groups  I am going to be very frustrated with 4MOA equipment and ammo.

if your working with a shooter that can't hold a 12moa group then rock that 4moa equipment and ammo.

my first Appleseed was very frustrating , I was running a Savage bolt action during the ammo shortage running blazer ammo and a broken scope.

I knew that gun would make me  dime sized 10 shot ragged holes in practice with other ammo  , I had some frustration getting off rounds in 55 seconds but I got over that , I had frustration in other shooting my target  extra holes on target take the best one off for each extra and what I didn't know till  after the shoot was that the scope was broken. Bushnell warrantied the scope.

I was knocking hard on the door of rifleman from my first target Saturday morning.

as Bobasan would put it my feed back loop was broken, and I was very frustrated by it and that just isn't a good learning environment.

a good teaching and learning environment is one that gives positive feed back for positive progress.

do we need to strive for sub MOA , no , but with a few simple changes you really can improve the 10/22 and not every one needs improving but many do.

perhaps a good test for "do you need to make a better arrow?" would be if you grab a set of sand bags and shoot 5 test groups then you grab your sling and slow fire prone 5 test groups and your average prone group is very close your test group your probably ready for a better arrow.

by the end of day 2 I did pull together a 220 without any extra holes for my patch.

I kept working it harder and harder in a way it made me better a frustrating way to get better but I kept thinking this has to be me when it wasn't

it is hard to say any one lucks into a 220 because it clearly isn't luck but in a way I lucked into that 220 with the scope not moving significantly enough for me to complete 4 stages. the next time I went to use that rifle it was very clear that it was broken the cross hairs were very crooked.

one way to ensure it is the Indian and not the arrow is to make sure the Arrow is capable of a perfect score holding the 5 ring on the stage 4 target repeatably and it doesn't have to cost a lot if you can shoot a test group and cover it with a dime , you can clear stage 4  if you shoot  good test groups you can cover  with a quarter it won't keep you from shooting rifleman consistently if you do your part.


The Wolfhound

Just remember The Wolfhound's law of rifle upgrades: The more you add to it, the fewer excuses you will be granted.  Failing to perform with a "stupid accurate" rifle is embarrassing and cadre never forget >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

pblanc

#27
Well, I have shot at two 25 meter Appleseed events with a Ruger 10/22 and pretty easily qualified at both with scores generally in the 220s and a high of 236 using a rifle that was largely stock.

This rifle began life as a very plain 10/22 with a taper barrel and synthetic stock I purchased for $170, say $190 after transfer fees.  The main things that I felt were important to improve my ability to shoot the rifle was a better sighting system, improvement in the trigger, and modification of the stock to better fit me.  I know that none of these improve the inherent accuracy of the rifle, but they certainly enhanced my ability to shoot the rifle more accurately.

If your eyes are good enough to use iron sights, more power to you.  I have a set of Tech Sights on a second 10/22 and I think they work very well.  I need to use a scope at my age on the backside of my 60s.  I use the stock Ruger rail and a set of Weaver Quad-lock rings with one straight up ring and one forward extension ring instead of an extended rail.  The rings were purchased on ebay for around $15.  They have worked exceedingly well for me.

I did the "auto-release" modification of the bolt catch lever myself.  I sent the trigger group to Brimstone Gunsmithing for their Tier 3 trigger job ($54 including the two-way shipping) which resulted in a much smoother trigger with a 2lb 10oz break.  As for scopes, I bought a Hawke Sport Optics Vantage 3-9X40 with an adjustable objective for around $120 from Amazon and it has served me well.  I am not saying it is the greatest glass in the world, but very good for Appleseed.

I needed a longer length of pull than the synthetic Ruger stock provided so a put a Limbsaver recoil pad on the butt stock which cost about $20.  I needed a higher comb height so I put on a Beartooth  cheek riser kit which cost about $20.  Although the stock extractor had not caused me any troubles, I installed a Volquarsen extractor for around $12 and a synthetic bolt stop buffer for another $10.  A set of three more 10 round rotary mags purchased on ebay cost another $35.  And a set of sling swivels cost another $10 and a USGI web sling another $15. 

Those investments got me up to $500 for the rifle, scope, sling, and a total of 4 magazines.  And it was certainly good enough to shoot Rifleman with, which I did.  Since the first event I made some additional modifications to the rifle.  I installed the Brimstone Tier 3 trigger on my other 10/22 and sent that rifle's trigger group in for the Brimstone Tier 2 trigger job.  The difference in cost between the Tier 2 and Tier 3 trigger jobs is $40 more for the Tier 2.  I put in a Kidd extended charging handle to make the handle a little quicker to use with the scope for $20.  I sent the barreled action in to Randy at Connecticut Precision Chambering to have the barrel chamber recut, the barrel crowned, the bolt breech face head spaced, the firing pin pinned, and the bolt radiused for smoother action for a total of $165.  So after investing another $225 in the rifle (now up to $725) I used it to shoot a second Appleseed.  The work done at CPC did result in a modest improvement in accuracy which was noticeable at 50 yards, but it really wasn't enough to make much difference at 25 meters, and my highest score thus far on the AQT was shot at the first event.

I have decided to go ahead and try a different stock and bought a Magpul X22 with a set of comb risers for a total of $120 on sale.  That will allow me to adjust the LOP without a recoil pad, and allow better fine-tuning of comb height.  Whether it will improve my accuracy remains to be seen, but I think it might help a little.  So that puts me up to a total investment of a little under $850 for the rifle and accessories.  Had I gone with the Magpul stock initially, I would have saved another $40 by not buying the recoil pad and comb riser kit, so I would be right around $800 total.   I might have gone with an aftermarket barrel instead of sending it to CPC.  If I did make any further modifications to this rifle, it would be to add an aftermarket bull barrel.

Energizer Bunny

#28
Sounds like a fine rifle you're planning on building but I'll give my experience. 

My first Appleseed I used a bolt action 22.  Accurate rifle but I'm just not fast enough on the bolt.  It was frustrating for me.  I bought myself a 10/22 on sale, added some tech sights, sling swivels and started shooting.  The factory trigger was bad.  I tried working on it myself but it wasn't getting better and I'm impatient so I got power custom trigger kit.  I believe it was the link below, granted it was several years back but I know I didn't pay close to half that.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/168643/power-custom-competition-rifle-trigger-kit-ruger-10-22-hammer-sear-trigger-buffer-shims-springs

Wholla, I had a trigger that worked for me and was a huge improvement.  I also got an automatic bolt release that was nice from functional point of view. 

I got a kitchen timer and started shooting AQT's on my own.  I was shooting tons of rifleman scores on my own, go to another Appleseed and I didn't come close to breaking 200.  :wb: :wb: :wb:

The next time I went to the range, I shot 2 rifleman scores in a row.  I practiced many more AQT's and was consistently shooting around 225-235.  And I'm a tough grader on the scoring, I didn't use the 30 cal rule and if a shot was iffy, it was scored on the lower side.  My high was a 238 and I even had jam on stage 3 and only got 9 rounds off in time. 

So... I go to another  event with the same result, didn't come close to breaking 200.  It was getting late in 2012 so I didn't shoot much and then I was caught with my pants around my ankles with my 22 ammo supply so that put a halt on that.  Other things happened and years later I went back and got my patch with a scoped ar.  Only took 4 tries total to get the patch.


Don't focus so much on the rifle that you forget to practice those AQT's.  Then relax when you go to a shoot.  Don't worry about the time monkey, just shoot.


Oh, I forgot but I also sanded some on the stock around "magwell".  I kept hitting and snagging the mag on the squared, internal portion at the bottom of the stock.  Rounded that off with some sandpaper and it's been smooth sailing.




Faramir

All of what I would have said and more has been said by others (who, might I add, know more than I do anyway).

I will add this: My dad (Axkicker, on the forum) and I both have shot in the low 230s with almost completely stock 10/22s. Only performance-enhancing additions are $30.00 UTG scopes and the Level I package by Brimstone Gunsmithing--~$38.00 gave both our triggers silky take-up and a glass-like 2.25# break.

Just listen to the instructors, dry-fire, dry-fire, hit the range, and dry-fire some more (preaching to myself, too  ~~:) ). That's over-simplified (a little), but it will get you a very long way.