Scope mounting

[Fynn]

This is what my CZ512-22LR (2015 model) looks like with an extended mount. I machined new lower dovetail & drill/tapped new screw holes. It started as UTG_ScopeMt_RGPM2PA-25M4, then was modified to 0.48" height in order to support a Nikon Rimfire2, 3-9x40mm cardboard clearance of iron rear sight.
Mike

Very nice job, looks great. Thanks for this, the photo really helps.

Still wondering though, how do people shoot prone with "an off the rack" rifle without all of these modifications?

[Nashville Stage]

Still wondering though, how do people shoot prone with "an off the rack" rifle without all of these modifications?

Well, for most rifles, a scope is an aftermarket add-on. The stock & comb height are configured by the manufacturer to line up the shooter's eye with the iron sights that come with the rifle. While many rifles come with mounting points to facilitate attaching an optic, there are enough variables in size & configuration that it's almost universally required to make some adjustments to get everything to line up well. That's also not to mention the variability in the size & shape of the nut behind the trigger.

[Fynn]

Still wondering though, how do people shoot prone with "an off the rack" rifle without all of these modifications?

Well, for most rifles, a scope is an aftermarket add-on. The stock & comb height are configured by the manufacturer to line up the shooter's eye with the iron sights that come with the rifle. While many rifles come with mounting points to facilitate attaching an optic, there are enough variables in size & configuration that it's almost universally required to make some adjustments to get everything to line up well. That's also not to mention the variability in the size & shape of the nut behind the trigger.

Very good points. Looking at your profile picture, and seeing that your scope is mounted farther back than mine, makes me think that a different scope will allow me to mount it farther back and still have a clear view in prone.

[TrapperPete]

Some optics have a very small range where you can clearly see edge to edge. Lower power optics are often more forgiving , optics with longer eye relief are often more forgiving. better quality are often more forgiving.

you may want to get into prone and have an assistant slide the scope in the rings till you feel it is perfect , mark that with a piece of tape , repeat in sitting , then standing.

I am going to use my AR as an example  I run NTCH (nose to charging handle) the tip of my nose is just a hairs width away from the charging handle.

great because my eye is always in the same place a nose distance behind the charging handle  and my optic always the same distance in front of the charging handle. I run the same way with Irons on an AR.

I find I run 2 clicks in from the end standing 1 click in from the end sitting , and all the way to the end for prone I am tall so I am also running a 3/4 inch spacer on the end of my 6 position stock

the more forward leaning my body the more stock I need to keep away from the optic.

if you find the best location for  your scope in each position , then go in the middle hopefully it will work for all 3

you  may also set it up perfect for prone at full magnification then turn the magnification all the way down and see how that works , this is what I have done on a few fixed stock rifles with optics.

it is not uncommon for me to have to run a spacer under the but pad to make a rifle long enough for me many rifles are factory about 13 or 13 1/4 length of pull  I generally want about 14 - 14 1/4

wen I am setting up guns for kids it is not uncommon to have to cut stocks down.

part of why adjustable length stocks are so handy.

[Fynn]

Getting spanked pretty good here in North Cackalacky by Florence, couldn't get to the range, but did manage to find what may very well be THE ugliest offset scope mount on the Eastern Seaboard

At any rate, did some (hold and mag change) practice this morning (25 yard silhouettes), standing, sitting, and prone (w/sling), perfectly clear picture, with only the slightest vignetting while prone and no need for any sort of cheek piece. I cycled 30+ rounds (without firing) and all ejected out the side without being hindered at all by the mount. We'll see how it does ejecting spent cases during the next live fire session.

This is a temporary, economical "learning to shoot the AQT" set up and it seems that it'll do just fine for now.


I have been "promised" by a couple of different companies that a quality V16 or VX 3-9 efr with medium or high rings will not have the vignetting issue. Regardless, this experiment has shown me that if I do run into any issues with a proper scope, it will be well worth spending the money to get a high quality, nice looking offset scope mount to go with this beautiful and accurate little rifle.

Thanks again to all who have offered suggestions and help

[Charles McKinley]

https://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/rings-mounts-amp-bases/rifle-bases/cz-452-453-455-511-3-8-hd-scope-bases-prod94442.aspx

Man CZ stuff is expensive!  This is the style of rail I run on my 10/22 and Ruger American Rimfire.  I would look and see if DIP makes a rail for CZ.  This is more than double the 10/22 rail but there is a lot more machine work in the CZ rail.

Chuck

[Mark Davis]

Many scope mounts of that type are available from air gun retailers like www.pyramydair.com or www.airgunsofarizona.com

CAUTION! both web sites lead to a very deep rabbit hole of distraction.

[Fynn]

Many scope mounts of that type are available from air gun retailers like www.pyramydair.com or www.airgunsofarizona.com

CAUTION! both web sites lead to a very deep rabbit hole of distraction.

I was looking at Pyramid just a few hours ago - great idea Mark, thanks. Deep rabbit hole indeed... yikes

[Nashville Stage]

Man CZ stuff is expensive!  This is the style of rail I run on my 10/22 and Ruger American Rimfire.  I would look and see if DIP makes a rail for CZ.  This is more than double the 10/22 rail but there is a lot more machine work in the CZ rail.

I recently decided to buy the EGW rail for my CZ452. DIP also makes a Picatinny rail that's smaller & cheaper, but the mounting style of the EGW is more secure, non-marring, and (most important for me) more repeatable if I remove & reinstall the rail so I can use the iron sights. Yeah, it's heavier & more expensive, but in the end it had the features I wanted.

[Fynn]

Man CZ stuff is expensive!  This is the style of rail I run on my 10/22 and Ruger American Rimfire.  I would look and see if DIP makes a rail for CZ.  This is more than double the 10/22 rail but there is a lot more machine work in the CZ rail.

I recently decided to buy the EGW rail for my CZ452. DIP also makes a Picatinny rail that's smaller & cheaper, but the mounting style of the EGW is more secure, non-marring, and (most important for me) more repeatable if I remove & reinstall the rail so I can use the iron sights. Yeah, it's heavier & more expensive, but in the end it had the features I wanted.

So perhaps as I had suspected just about everyone modding for 3 position. Is there anyone out there using rings on dovetail without rail, extension, etc...? Can it be done?

[airplanejoe]

Yes it can be done. I have CZ rings mounted directly on the 11 mm dovetail (CZ453). The benefits of a rail is that it gives you more mounting options. With the stand alone rings you will most probably need a cheek riser.
aj

[Charles McKinley]

Pyramid Air a rabbit hole?  Ha! It's a deep mine.  Once you fall in you may never return.  I believe my bonus this year will finally allow me to get and outfit a PCP rifle: rifle, mags, scope, pump, maybe a scuba tank.

You Have Been Warned.

Chuck

[TrapperPete]

it can be done  to get a scope in the right place with basic mounts , but it might take changing another variable

what you can't see in the picture is the 3/4 inch pine spacer I  put between the but plate and stock to make the rifle the right length for me

these are really some not very good rings I won't call them junk because they are working and didn't cost me anything , a friend had bought a scope for his 10/22 off amazon and it came with these rings but he couldn't figure how he could use them on the 10/22 , he is a good farmer but not much of a gun person so I ordered him a set of weaver rings and a 10/22 rail . 

[airplanejoe]

TP,

I think I understand your predicament. Rifles are built "one size fits all", which means one size fits very few. I'm also guessing that you are a fairly tall person and fall outside the "mean". My suggestions are: 1. Don't blade so much behind the rifle (free). Some disciplines tell you to be directly behind the rifle. The problem will be that it would be difficult to place your support hand under the rifle; but the purpose of shooting is to hit the target, not to look good in the shower. 2. If one doesn't work, get a thicker recoil plate or recoil reducer (a few bucks). If 1 or 2 doesn't work, change the stock (big bucks). But there is no reason at all you couldn't fit any rile to you (don't fit yourself to the rifle).

Good luck.

aj

 

[TrapperPete]

moderately tall really only 6'2" , but since it seems most rifles are made for average of 5'7" most stocks come up short.

I have a few stocks that have added length as a thicker recoil pad , or spacer under the pad or plate.

I tend to split the difference , add some and push the scope forward some , that keeps the weight farther back and more balanced.

if we were talking about mounting optics on an AR rather than a bolt gun , I really like the Nikon P-series mounts , they can be turned forwards or backwards  including having one forward and one backwards also that they are 2 piece it leaves a lot of options open.

the other thing I have found is anything you can by a picatiny rail for , buy it , it gives you all those slots   to work with for moving forward and back . I have installed several sets of the Weaver Quad lock rings on picatiny rails they work well and keep cost down at about 16 dollars a set.

this rifle in the picture was already a little front heavy with a fat for-end and 24 inch bull barrel , changing from the 2 piece weaver base to the pic rail allowed my to slide the scope forward to a happy place for sitting , standing and prone.

[Fynn]

The rail made by DIP might be what I have to get to "have it all" but spending another $90+ was not what I had envisioned getting started.

Thanks to everyone for providing ideas, solutions, and pics of setups. Very helpful indeed.

[Kennebago]

Keep in mind that rails add height. You may want to get your scope first, see where it wants to sit, and then figure out a mounting solution.

Unfortunately, firearms are always systems. Adds up fast.

[Fynn]

I would cut the other way and say your rings are pretty high as well. Look at how far over the bore your tube is! On a sporter-ish rimfire rifle setup, you shouldn't have to deal with big-time cheek pieces. On a PRS rig, sure. On a 452 Varmint, you should need a relatively small amount for fine-tuning.

I found a set of BKL 257 MB (open box) on Amazon for $10 which allowed me to remove (and return) the Leapers "butt-ugly offset extension mount from hell".

Ordered BKL's Wednesday and, to my amazement, they were waiting for me in the mailbox when I got home Friday evening.

Saturday morning I mounted these rings and scope (with the forward ring slightly hanging over the edge of the dovetail) and headed to the range.... et voilà

No vignetting in standing and prone positions and only slight cheek weld adjustment needed for sitting position.

Life is good.

[Kennebago]

Excellent!

[TrapperPete]

very nice , those offsets are very handy for such instances.

and it looks to also get your scope much closer to the barrel and should help you with a good cheek weld without as much build up necessary.

get down in prone ,eyes close  get a really solid cheek weld  then open your eyes ,(no cheating) , are you looking through the center of your scope , if you are not time to start building.

I am a fan of horse wrap and 1/2 inch sleeping pad foam cut  to approximately  1 1/2 x 5  inch strips  basically go cut 2 inches off your wife's yoga mat and hope she doesn't notice , admittedly that is a bad idea for harmony at home go buy your own cheap yoga mat you can use whats left under your shooting mat for a little greater comfort when on concrete.

even if you don't keep this horse/vet wrap and foam on your very nice stock, the point is it allows you to build up very slowly and compress that foam find your sweet spot , if you later want a leather lace on cheek riser you know exactly how high you will need it.

once the foam and vet wrap is perfect go over it with a layer of sports wrap tape this really locks it in place they make it in a variety of colors.

vet / horse wrap and human wrap are the same thing but the hardware/farm store brings it in for $1.49 a 4 inch wide roll  they used to only get red , white and blue but I asked for black and green and they now have some black and green for me  and the pharmacy charges 8 dollars a roll.

at the end of the day you have done no harm to your nice wood stock but your shooting better.

also you stock will be so comfortable you will be able to take short naps in prep.

[The Wolfhound]

There is a difference between "Vet Wrap" and the stuff for humans: LATEX!  Animals do not develop latex allergies.  People might, and the manufacturers prefer not to get sued. Operationally they are the same.

[TrapperPete]

I can see where Late could be an issue , I wrap mine in athletic tape for people when I have it right to lock it in and leave it , but thank you for pointing out the possibility of a latex issue.

[Fynn]

After finally attending my first Appleseed, I decided that maybe I DO deserve a nice scope

[TrapperPete]

I mounted one this last week , on a 10/22 , needed the extended rail and an extended ring I regularly have to get them this far forward to be happy in prone

this is a Vortex 2-7x32 the rings are Weaver high quad-lock for an inexpensive aluminum ring they have held well on a number of guns for me with much more recoil .
2x is very forgiving for eye relief so standing it isn't too far forward and prone it is very good for anywhere 2-7 power.

I didn't need the high rings to get the bell off the barrel but to get the magnification adjustment off the rail even with the high there isn't more than 2-3 sheets of paper thickness room between the ring and rail.