Scope mounting

[Fynn]

Hello all,

After several months practicing bolt action with iron sights - making mistakes, making progress, dealing with knee issues, and generally having an incredible amount of fun, I've decided that I really can't see well enough to shoot my best with iron sights and have borrowed a 4x32 air rifle scope just to see what life is like with a scope. So far it is pretty sweet but...

My first discovery is that I can't mount the scope far enough forward to prevent vignetting in prone, and can barely avoid it sitting. It is mounted as far forward as it will go and farther forward than I see most folks and it makes me wonder: what am I doing wrong? I have read awesome advice on here (especially Kennebago's words on bolt action) but still would like to hear more.

Questions: How do people shoot 3 position with their scopes so far back without getting neck pain? Do any of you folks use a recoil pad or such to help with this issue?

I haven't begun to experiment and perhaps I'll figure it out for myself (like so many other things lol) but I thought it might be a good topic to bring up (again) on here.

Thanks

[eaglescouter]

Be aware that the recoil pulse on an air rifle is different than that from a smokeless rifle and that difference kills scopes.

Yes, move that scope way forward, and then push it even further forward.

If you still cannot get enough eye relief then put both rings behind the turrets that adjust windage and elevation.  It looks strange, but works very well.

[WhitePaladin]

Would you send us a picture of how you have it mounted on the rifle?  I would like to have a picture from both the left and right sides.  Please be sure these are full shots of the entire rifle, rather than close ups. 

-Chris

[Fynn]

Would you send us a picture of how you have it mounted on the rifle?  I would like to have a picture from both the left and right sides.  Please be sure these are full shots of the entire rifle, rather than close ups. 

-Chris

Wilco but it'll be Thursday earliest as I am travelling for work

[WhitePaladin]

Ok.  Send pictures when you can.  Just to cover the bases, what is the make/model of the rifle.  What's the make/model of the scope?

[Fynn]

Ok.  Send pictures when you can.  Just to cover the bases, what is the make/model of the rifle.  What's the make/model of the scope?

CZ 452 Varmint .22LR with BSA 4x32 (high rings)

[WhitePaladin]

I have the same rifle.  Here's a picture of how it's mounted on my rifle. 

CZ 452 Varmint .22LR rifle
Leupold VX-1 3-9x40mm scope

You generally want the eyepiece bell to be around the midpoint of the grip, as indicated by the screwdriver.  Adjust accordingly based upon your personal eye relief plus the reach of the bolt handle.  This particular mount has it about a 1/8 inch too far forward.  The bolt handle occasionally grazes the eyepiece bell, which is why that white pastie is there. 

I don't know very much about this BSA air rifle scope, but I suspect it may not be a correct match for the rifle.  My CZ 452 has a 13.75 inch length of pull, as measured from the end of the butt stock to the front edge of the trigger.  My scope measures 12 inches from front to back.

I suspect the combination of air rifle scope and smokeless powder rifle might be the culprit.  They may not be sized appropriate for each other.  Alternatively, you may have a rifle with a stock that is too short.  Check your measurements and let us know?

[Snow Snake]

 I feel your pain Fynn,I've finally proved to myself that iron sights are in the rear view mirror.
But to your current concern,I found that for me the answer is cantilever.A cantilever picatinny base for  my .22 cal. rings and cantilever rings for the centerfire.Both are apx.2 inches.These enable  you to move the scope far enough forward for a reasonable sight picture,at least for me it works.Maybe this will help you too,good luck
     Ken           

[WhitePaladin]

Also, the vignette typically appears in either direction, when you're either too far or too close to the eyepiece.  It may be a possibility you're moving in the wrong direction.  You may need to move the scope backwards instead of forwards.  I'm not sure which end of the eye relief problem you're on, but I'll take your word you feel that you are too close to the eyepiece.

[Kennebago]

Guessing it's the scope. Not sure which BSA you have but some are... rather inexpensive. I've had a couple of super-cheap Bushnells that wouldn't give me a clean image in any position.

As long as you aren't poorly fit to the stock (i.e. your head is too far forward on the wood) that's the other variable. You'd notice if your stock was that badly undersized for you (your noodle would be over the stock wrist and it'd be obviously uncomfortable).

I would try another optic, if you can. Or if you'd have to buy one, keep in mind that it doesn't have to be anything fancy - you can go a long way with a regular-old Mueller APV for about $120.

Link:

Mueller APV 4-14x40 w/AO

Muellers are the darling of RimfireCentral for good reason - I had one for many years on my CZ and was very, very happy with it. For rings I think I used BKL 257s at first, which were a bit high but tolerable, and then CZ's rings when I had the money, which fit best.

[airplanejoe]

Different take on this problem; Kennebago mentioned it in his reply. What is the LOP (length of pull) on your rifle? You might try to add a thick recoil pad; not for recoil, but to increase the LOP. Moves your head back, same result as moving the scope forward.

aj

[HammBone]

Another consideration when choosing scopes for Appleseed is the need for variable power. At 25 meters, 4X is perfect for me. A variable scope has more length to its rear eyepiece/adjusting ring stack than a fixed power scope. That extra space on a fixed scope lets you move it more forward in the rings.

I also second the advice on the quality of the scope and its tendency to vignette. On one of my 10/22s I have an inexpensive Simmons 4X fixed ($45) and on my R-55 Benchmark a Weaver K4 ($135). The difference in the brightness, sharpness and ease of finding the correct eye position is huge. The Simmons is very picky about eye position. The Weaver doesn't seem to care and gives you a great image over a wide range of positions.

[Fynn]

Thanks to all for the replies

First things first, this is definitely a "for the time being" interim scope with the "only extra rings in the toolbox".  Leupold, Weaver, and Mueller are what I am looking at as soon as the quarter jar gets full I'm going to take my time but found this beauty at a small town pawn shop and REALLY wanted to see how she would shoot.
For starters, required only two shots to sight in and then shot this from a rest at 25-27ish yrds so she seems to be a keeper.


It is indeed an inexpensive scope but it does have AO and therefore I can shoot ok even with the vignetting since the reticle doesn't move. However, I want to make the right choice when I buy a scope for real and was wondering about this issue. I am not interested in adding a rail; would rather keep everything stock.

This scope, although cheap, is very clear (for me) and, other than my sometimes "Titanic wobble" when shooting offhand, 4x seems enough and the scope will do fine for me (for now) as long as I can avoid the vignette issue (which only happens sitting and most markedly when prone).

As far as eye relief, I can move my head back all the way to the end of the stock and have a clear picture but as soon as I get too close to the eyepiece the picture goes south.

Wifey was kind enough to snap a few pics for me this AM, hope this helps, 11.75" from top end of butt to front edge of eyepiece. Like I said before, I am completely new to scopes and I just want to know why this is happening so I can avoid it when I spend 200+ for a much better scope.

[WhitePaladin]

This scope looks like it mounted correctly.  Measuring it on my screen shows the proportions are the same as my rifle.  The scope is about 12 inches long.  You have about a 14 inch length of pull from the butt stock to the trigger.  Everything is proportionally the same as my rifle. 

The scope looks like it is mounted in the correct location as well.  The eyepiece bell is about a half inch forward of the midpoint of the grip, but that should not present any optics issues, with the exception with the bolt handle hitting the scope of course.

When you get to your rifle next time, hold it up in the air and see if you can locate where the vignette appears in both directions.  Get your eye close to the eyepiece until the vignette appears.  Then move your eye away from the eyepiece until it comes into perfect view, and then continue moving it back until the vignette appears again when you are too far from the eye piece.  See where those two points are on this scope. 

I'm suspecting an air rifle scope was meant to be mounted farther forward than a normal firearms scope.  I suspect it is an incorrect scope for this rifle. 

[Fynn]

When you get to your rifle next time, hold it up in the air and see if you can locate where the vignette appears in both directions.  Get your eye close to the eyepiece until the vignette appears.  Then move your eye away from the eyepiece until it comes into perfect view, and then continue moving it back until the vignette appears again when you are too far from the eye piece.  See where those two points are on this scope. 

I'm suspecting an air rifle scope was meant to be mounted farther forward than a normal firearms scope.  I suspect it is an incorrect scope for this rifle.

I will get those measurements, possibly tomorrow, thanks for your input. I was hoping this would work while getting started but I'm thinking that the frustration of the vignette may far outweigh the gratification of getting to shoot this rifle.

It's funny, I have come up against several issues getting started with riflery but it sure is going to be sweet when I find that perfect combo

[2 clicks low]

Way back somewhere in this form is my article, "scope mounting for NPOA".
Looking at the picture my first instinct is the stock needs to be built up. Lay a 1/2 piece of foam on the cheek rest Close your eyes. Turkey neck / cheek weld. Open eyes. Are you looking straight down the scope? Adjust with foam and Vet Wrap as needed. Next get a friend to help, get into prone with your eyes closed wearing safety glasses. Have friend mark where your glasses come on the stock.  Read scope manual or check Optics Planet for the "eye relief" of that scope. Measure forward the amount of eye relief from the mark. THIS IS WHERE YOU NEED THE REAR OF THE SCOPE TO BE.  You may have to buy new rings, bases or rails to accomplish this. My 10/22 has a cantilevered rail that extends 2 inches past the receiver. Or you might have to put both rings behind the turret. This works well and have done it several times on the line.

[Twineagles]

 I agree my CZ 452 trainer with a 3x9 and low rings required a 1/2 inch of cheek rise. It shot wonderful from standing caused pain from prone having to lift my head. Foam pipe insulation and vet wrap are great testing and emergency fix. When doing this turn and trim it so it is not pushing your cheek away from the stock.

Brownell's has a neoprene sleeve system made by Bear Tooth comes with foam inserts to do a custom adjustment and looks great too.

Mike

[Kennebago]

I would cut the other way and say your rings are pretty high as well. Look at how far over the bore your tube is! On a sporter-ish rimfire rifle setup, you shouldn't have to deal with big-time cheek pieces. On a PRS rig, sure. On a 452 Varmint, you should need a relatively small amount for fine-tuning.

If you intend to buy your own scope and give back the loaner, I would do a good deal of research on rings and get something that'll mount whatever glass you choose as close to the bore as you can manage. Avoids a lot of nonsense down the road. Fortunately you have a lot of options for the 11mm dovetail (including CZ's own rings, which are expensive/heavy but extremely well-made).

With that said, some kind of cheek pad is generally a good idea, especially on a bolt gun where you really want to break NPOA as little as possible. Triad makes decent ones and they come with strips to raise comb height (I use one myself on a Model 60 build, works well enough). I'd take a look here at the modular pack:

https://www.triadtactical.com/Triad-Modular-Stock-Pack.html

...and then as a bonus you can rig it with a strip that'll hold your CZ mags right there on the stock.

[Fynn]

It'll take me some time to set aside the money for a proper scope so in the meantime I will experiment with the ideas provided until I lose patience. I've been given several suggestions by way of RFC on what "works" for this rifle as far as rings but so far not from anyone who admits to shooting 3 position.

The rings do indeed seem awkwardly high so I will definitely try medium rings and also will experiment with the cheek riser.

[Lurching Hail]

It looks like you've got a good plan working.  I just wanted to toss in that my understanding is that a difference between an "air rifle" scope and a "rimfire scope" has more to do with durability than with accuracy. I understand that the difference in "recoil dynamics" means that an "air rifle" designed scope is likely to fail earlier when presented with a steady diet of rimfire recoils than one designed for rimfire loadings.

[eaglescouter]

I just wanted to toss in that my understanding is that a difference between an "air rifle" scope and a "rimfire scope" has more to do with durability than with accuracy. I understand that the difference in "recoil dynamics" means that an "air rifle" designed scope is likely to fail earlier when presented with a steady diet of rimfire recoils than one designed for rimfire loadings.

Agreed completely.  I have seen several air gun scopes loose part of the reticule when used at an Appleseed on a rimfire rifle.

[TallSteve]

I am 6-6 with long arms.  In an effort to be able to turkey neck with my scopes I have had to become acquainted with LOP and ways to adjust that for my rifles.  I have also had to learn about aftermarket rails and cantilever mounts.  I have had to pay attention to scope specifications for eye relief and their dimensions.  It has been an interesting and rewarding process.  I have had to increase the LOP and/or change the scope mounting position on every rifle in my collection.  My wife who is also an Appleseed IIT and falls on the other size of "Normal size" has also had to do this.  She has had to shorten the LOP on her rifles to make things work. 

We have found that for Appleseed work, the Vortex Diamondback 2-7 rimfire scopes work very very well.  They are frequently on sale  at great prices.  In my searching for appropriate scopes for AS, I have found that the more common rimfire variable scopes frequently have much better pricing than the fixed power.  Probably due to the number of units sold. 

Our off the cuff opinion is that it appears that your scope needs to move forward until the rear of the scope is about flush with the rear of the receiver.  However we don't have your rifle or scope.

We have seen many cheap scopes fail at AS events.  The amount of frustration, lost time, and ultimately expense of those cheap scopes is just not worth it. 

[The Wolfhound]

Not going to challenge the good advice others have offered.  DO NOT GIVE UP ON IRON SIGHTS!  I am 62 and need glasses to see anything clearly.  The right glasses are what make the difference.  hold your support side thumb out as far as possible and find the glasses that allow you to see your thumbnail in great detail.  For most folks, this is 2 steps below their comfortable reading glasses diopter.  If you can see the front sight clearly, you should be good.  Get shooting glasses with the reader inserts for that diopter (no need to spend over $30 glasses included).  As long as your shooting position allows the corrected lens to work, irons are still fine.  As my Virginia Cadre know, I will gladly shoot their M-1s and remain somewhat better than "minute of barn".

[Fynn]

Not going to challenge the good advice others have offered.  DO NOT GIVE UP ON IRON SIGHTS!  I am 62 and need glasses to see anything clearly.  The right glasses are what make the difference.  hold your support side thumb out as far as possible and find the glasses that allow you to see your thumbnail in great detail.  For most folks, this is 2 steps below their comfortable reading glasses diopter.  If you can see the front sight clearly, you should be good.  Get shooting glasses with the reader inserts for that diopter (no need to spend over $30 glasses included).  As long as your shooting position allows the corrected lens to work, irons are still fine.  As my Virginia Cadre know, I will gladly shoot their M-1s and remain somewhat better than "minute of barn".

This post made me smile, and made wifey roll her eyes, she knows how stubborn I am and how I love the satisfaction that irons bring (me)

I use that exact type of glasses for iron sights, with an occluder, but the 300-400 yrd targets are still just out of my reach... But 100yrd offhand with irons, heck yeah!

[Shooter30-06]

At age 65 I long ago accepted the fact that I am too optically challenged to shoot well with iron sights.  Astigmatism plus gross near-sightedness does not allow me to see the 400 yard target.  I tell all my students there is no shame in using a scope.

I believe there is a difference in the eye relief in scopes as you move up through air rifle to rimfire to center fire.  I have always believed that a decent centerfire scope mounted as low as possible delivers the best results. 

[Fynn]

I tell all my students there is no shame in using a scope.

Glad to hear you say this. As a student, I must admit that as soon as I discovered that I mostly likely wouldn't reach my potential with iron sights I was very disappointed and thought that using a scope was almost like cheating.

However, my one range visit so far with a scope has shown me that optics present new challenges and don't necessarily make shooting "easy". Just my first impressions getting started: acquiring NPOA is different, eye relief (the issues I've mentioned starting this thread), and the accentuation of my wobble will make this new adventure plenty challenging.

I also will say that I am convinced that using a scope WILL indeed make it possible for me to reach my potential and my goal of one day joining the ranks of rifleman 

[Fynn]

Looking at the picture my first instinct is the stock needs to be built up. Lay a 1/2 piece of foam on the cheek rest Close your eyes. Turkey neck / cheek weld.... You may have to buy new rings, bases or rails to accomplish this.

Cheek rest seems to help quite a bit. Also, going to get medium rings as I am now convinced that will help greatly. Thank you sir for your input

[Lomshek]

Rather than medium rings which will lower the scope making it impossible to get it further forward you may look into cantilevered rings that allow you to move the scope further forward.

That will almost certainly help you lay your head forward for a more relaxed turkey neck.

Here is a 10/22 I set up with a cantilevered mount to allow the same thing and a friend shooting it at an Appleseed.

[Fynn]

Rather than medium rings which will lower the scope making it impossible to get it further forward you may look into cantilevered rings that allow you to move the scope further forward.

That will almost certainly help you lay your head forward for a more relaxed turkey neck.

Here is a 10/22 I set up with a cantilevered mount to allow the same thing and a friend shooting it at an Appleseed.

Very cool, thanks, I will look into that.

[MCZplus]

This is what my CZ512-22LR (2015 model) looks like with an extended mount. I machined new lower dovetail & drill/tapped new screw holes. It started as UTG_ScopeMt_RGPM2PA-25M4, then was modified to 0.48" height in order to support a Nikon Rimfire2, 3-9x40mm cardboard clearance of iron rear sight.
Mike