KD Course of fire Recommendation/Suggestion

[jmdavis]

The problem is that some people put more AQT's before good instruction and practice. You should have time at each yardline for sighters and your instructors should be able to work with you to get you where you need to be. The standard come ups will get you on paper with a .223 or a .30. There is documentation for other calibers as well.

[Shooter30-06]

This is an excellent thread and I have read the posts with interest.  Based upon my experiences in Known Distance, I am going to offer my theories on why the percentage of Rifleman at known distance may not be where we think it should be.

First, contrary to the common assertions otherwise, I believe qualifying at known distance IS harder than at 25 meters.  Remember, many  instructors and Rifleman do not qualify every single time at 25 meters and some have a hard time qualifying one out of ten times.  Add in the issues of trajectory, windage, temperature variables, and the bark and recoil of centerfires which are present in a known distance event.  The result is a very sizable group which will have difficulty qualifying KD.


Second, when I have qualified at KD shoots, it has been my observation that less hands on instruction occurs on the line.  The instructors assumed the shooters had mastered the fundamentals and concentrated on the trajectory and windage elements of KD.  I do not believe this assumption on fundamentals is necessarily sound.  There were a problems which were being exhibited.  For example, after I qualified a couple of times I dropped off the line and put on my instructor cap.  The very nice shooter who had been right next to me on the line was having problems.  When I watched him it was purely a matter of trigger squeeze and he qualified the very next qualification.  He thanked me profusely and noted he had been doing the same thing all weekend and would have continued if I had not advised him on it.  I came away from the KD with the belief that even advanced shooters need coaching or instruction.


In summary, the first problem above is not easily addressed.  However, the second problem can be addressed with attention and enough instructors on the line to get down in the dirt and help the students.     

[pblanc]

I know this is an old thread, but it has a lot of interesting thoughts and ideas.  I shot my first KD Appleseed last weekend and thought I would share my experience for what it is worth.

I am not an AS instructor.  I have shot at two prior 25m 2 day AS events with a 22LR rifle.  I qualified both times with scores on the AQT usually in the mid to upper 220s and a high of 236, so not stellar but decent.  I think my fundamentals are reasonable, but certainly very far from perfect.  I can call my shots some of the time, but not every time.  I personally would not trust one shot at distance as an adequate basis on which to make a scope adjustment. I also would not trust my accuracy shooting offhand for sighters.  This KD had to be a one-day event due to range restrictions imposed by other scheduled shoots and of course, this time of year days are short.  The shoot boss wanted to try to get two AQTs in as well as give us a chance to sight in and try a few rounds at 500 yards, so we were under some time pressure imposed by available daylight.

We had a small group with five shooters on the line, two of which were instructors, me, another man, and his son.  I am pretty sure that the three of us who were not instructors had all shot 25m AS events and qualified.  Temperature was in the mid to upper 30s.  Fortunately, there was little wind so that was not a factor.   I was using an AR with a Nikon 4-12x40 scope with a ballistic drop reticle.  I had gone to Nikon's spot-on ballistic calculator website to try to dope out the reticle holdovers to use for my 55 grain ammunition at various magnifications.  I had decided that I would zero the scope at 100 yards and try using the BDC markings on the scope reticle to estimate holdovers for the 200 and greater ranges.

I wanted to get out and actually confirm those holdovers prior to the event at actual ranges, but lousy weather and other constraints prevented me from doing so.  All I had been able to do before the event was confirm my 100 yard zero using the ammunition I planned to use.  I was also using a new shooting jacket that required some sling adjustments and I had not thoroughly tested my ammunition in the particular carbine I planned to use.

We spent a couple of hours on classroom instruction on ballistics, range estimation techniques, strategies for compensation for ballistic drop (scope adjustment, versus reticle-marked holdovers, versus aiming off), and a little on wind estimation and compensation.  Everybody seemed to have reasonable technique so there was little instruction on the fundamentals of position, trigger control, NPOA, etc.  There really would not have been time for it.

I learned a number of things when it came to live fire.  First, I had at least three failures to extract with the ammunition I was using.  This had never happened before.  I also found that one of my magazines did not seat unless I really smacked it in, and twice I had user-induced malfunctions that cost me points because I had not adequately seated the magazine.  I found that using the BDC reticle on my scope was a semi-disaster.  I did not expect the information provided by Nikon's spot-on application to be precisely accurate, and it was not.  But it probably would have been close enough if I had not found ways to screw it up.  On one occasion when shifting ranges I forgot to adjust the magnification to the setting appropriate for the particular holdover circle I was using.  I found that trying to aim using the very top edge of a little circle was much less intuitive, less accurate, and slower than using the cross-hairs on the reticle.  And on one stage I got confused and used the wrong holdover circle to aim.  Needless to say, my score on the first AQT was less than stellar.  By the time we got to the 400 yard slow-fire prone stage I had decided to give up on the BDC reticle and use scope adjustments instead.  The problem was that I was now at 400 yards with a scope zeroed at 100 yards, and had to use a "rule of thumb" to guess the adjustment required to go all the way from 100 to 400 yards.  Fortunately, we were allowed to shoot 5 sighters before shooting each stage for record, and I found that the rough rule of thumb adjustment got me onto the bottom of the target backer with one hit on target, so I was able to further adjust the scope off that.

By the time we shot Stage 4 I had given up on the first AQT as anything other than a learning experience.  After two scope adjustments, I did manage to get most of my shots on target at 400 yards.  We then started shooting the second AQT "backwards" from Stage 4 and I got all but one of my shots on target.  After that Stage 4 we were given an opportunity to shoot out to 500 yards with 5 sighters, then 5 shots for fun.  After making a scope adjustment after the sighters that was partly an educated guess, I was happy to get five out of five shots in the black at 500 yards, not a tight group but on target.  At this point I felt like I was starting to warm up a little.

Now we shot the rest of the second AQT back from 400 yards.  Since I had not nailed in the scope adjustments for each range going out, I now had to guesstimate a bit coming back.  Fortunately, I was allowed to shoot some sighters at 300 and 200 yards to refine the scope adjustments.  On Stage 2 I had a user-induced malfunction due to not fully seating the magazine that caused me to get off only six shots, and after I figured out the problem and got the magazine in all the way I got rattled and cross-shot my third round onto my neighbor's target who came out of that stage with eleven out of ten hits.  But due to my goof-ups, I got only five hits on Stage 2.  Freehand is usually my weakest position, and on Stage 1 at 100 yards, I had another failure to extract and a double feed to clear.  Fortunately I had enough time to just get all my shots off, and lo and behold, I got 10 hits.  So I did qualify on the second AQT by 2 points.  As it turned out, all but the young man did qualify that day.

Obviously, I learned a good deal about my scope, ammunition, and equipment.  What would have helped me do better?  Well, better preparation for one thing with better testing of my rifle, ammo, and magazines.  And an opportunity to confirm my BDC calculations at actual distance and get used to using the BDC features of the scope.  If I had used scope adjustments going out to 400 yards, I would have had more accurate adjustments coming back in, although I can't really say that affected my score on the second AQT all that much.  I think the opportunity to fire more sighters at each distance would have been helpful, but doing so would probably have prevented us from shooting that second AQT as we used every minute of available daylight.  But for a two-day KD event, I would agree with those who have suggested more time spent on sighters and scope adjustments between Stages to allow the shooters to get more familiar with their personal scope, rifle, and ammunition system.

[scuzzy]

Hey pblanc,

Thanks for posting this - I was just thinking about KD and there are a lot of good points in this thread and also things that you posted.

A few thoughts off the top of my head:

I personally would not trust one shot at distance as an adequate basis on which to make a scope adjustment.

I wouldn't either.

I was using an AR with a Nikon 4-12x40 scope with a ballistic drop reticle.  I had gone to Nikon's spot-on ballistic calculator website to try to dope out the reticle holdovers to use for my 55 grain ammunition at various magnifications.  I had decided that I would zero the scope at 100 yards and try using the BDC markings on the scope reticle to estimate holdovers for the 200 and greater ranges.

In the same vein I did a KD with a new scope. However what the BDC does is give a good approximate hold over. Not perfect but pretty dang good. I had a Primary Arms ACSS reticle. It's pretty good. However the ammo I was using, Hornday Steel Case Match - 75 gr HP, was not as advertised. It boasted about 2850 FPS. But it's really more like 2550. Slow. But accurate. So it had more drop. However it beats the Walmart and Surplus and is cheap.  But it screwed up the BDC markings. BUT - I then figured out if I did a 100 zero - and then gave it another 1.5 MOA up after doing the 100 zero - it was pretty close. Close enough to do a KD. But it was trial and error.

I wanted to get out and actually confirm those holdovers prior to the event at actual ranges, but lousy weather and other constraints prevented me from doing so.  All I had been able to do before the event was confirm my 100 yard zero using the ammunition I planned to use.  I was also using a new shooting jacket that required some sling adjustments and I had not thoroughly tested my ammunition in the particular carbine I planned to use.

Yup - lesson learned - you absolutely gotta get out and try your stuff out.

And until you actually get out and try out your equipment you just never know. And what is worse is that there is a lot of bad info out there on the internet. And some of the ballistics calculators can be screwy.

Now add the fact that lots of ammo specs are overblown. For instance the manufacturer says it's 3200 FPS - but it's really 2950 or even less. So when you go to shoot at 400 and you find that you have a bunch of holes 1 and 2 inches right under the 4 ring because the ammo you're shooting is not quite as advertised. As I mentioned I zeroed at 100 and gave it 1.5 MOA up and things worked a bit better then. But that all depends on the ammo. And some crappy ammo out there too. Ain't nothing like some 'flyers' to screw up your score. Find what works for you and stick with it.

Obviously, I learned a good deal about my scope, ammunition, and equipment.  What would have helped me do better? Well, better preparation for one thing with better testing of my rifle, ammo, and magazines.  And an opportunity to confirm my BDC calculations at actual distance and get used to using the BDC features of the scope.

Yup again. And some of the stuff you're not going to be able to verify unless you're on a KD range. Here in my area we haven't had any KD ranges and just last year finally got one (thanks Tim) so I'm learning myself.

And again - thanks for your post since I need to look at things from somebody that just did a KD. And also how I can best run KDs. This helped a lot and there is a lot to chew on in this thread.

[LogCabinShooter]

 Keep in mind, ammo speed is highly dependent on barrel length. Rule of thumb is 40 fps per inch. I handload all of my own ammo, and run the same load in two rifles. My 20" AR shoots a 69 SMK at 2874 fps, and my 16" shoots them at 2550. Almost twice the rule of thumb. At 600 yards, the difference in drop is about 40". I'd be willing to bet Hornady did not test the 75 grain bullet in a 16" barrel for published chrono data.
That said, anyone using a BDC is setting themselves up for failure, unless you only shoot the ammo that the reticle was designed for, AND your rifle happens to shoot it at the same speed. Heck, even ambient temperature can change bullet speed enough to render a BDC useless. Buy a scope with turrets that track reliably, and use them. I happened to spend a bunch of time with the same scope mentioned, and found the turrets very reliable, and excellent glass for the price point.

[maxwell]

That said, anyone using a BDC is setting themselves up for failure, unless you only shoot the ammo that the reticle was designed for, AND your rifle happens to shoot it at the same speed. Heck, even ambient temperature can change bullet speed enough to render a BDC useless. Buy a scope with turrets that track reliably, and use them. I happened to spend a bunch of time with the same scope mentioned, and found the turrets very reliable, and excellent glass for the price point.

BDC and holdovers are both options of last resort, as far as I'm concerned. The point of Battle Sight Zero, as far as I understand it, is to use the same sight picture from 25-300 yards on a man-sized target: hold center mass and shoot. If you're ringing steel or shooting a hits-count KD, that seems like a perfectly good way to do it, and is totally worth proving out for a SHTF situation. Changing sight picture between stages doesn't work for me, though; I've tried using BDC optics, and can never remember which of those damn lines I used on the previous shot when I'm trying to get a group for a zero. You guys who try holding on different parts of the target at each distance are nuts, as far as I'm concerned.

Having shot NRA/CMP highpower for a few years now, IMHO it's better to always turn elevation and windage knobs back to zero between KD stages. For elevation, use mechanical zero for A2/M1 sights, and mark your zero with a bit of tape on a scope so you don't end up off by a turn. For windage, use a paint pen to mark the knob on an A2 or M1, and use the zero reference or tape again on a scope turret. In your prep period (or before, if handling the rifle is allowed) put on the dope for your current stage by counting clicks. As soon as you're done, write down what you actually used for that stage by clicking it back off. It's not rocket science.

http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/zeros.html

The drill of plotting calls on a witness target that jmdavis mentioned above is pure gold: once you can trust your calls, you can adjust those knobs after a single shot if you have target pullers/etargets, or can see holes. I lost four points at my last match because I took a followup shot before making necessary dope changes (two changes were necessary since I forgot that I was using 1/2 minute vs. 1/4 minute clicks).

For instruction and checking, maybe taking students out to the 200 line and seeing if they can put 10 rounds in the V would be a good drill, before advancing with the other yard lines? Dick Whiting recommends a drill like that, where you put 10 single-loaded shots in the X-ring of a standard NRA SR target at 200 yards. You're close enough that wind isn't a big problem, and far enough that you can't cheat on your position like you can with a .22LR at 25m. It's way harder than it should be.

[Faramir]

I've not had time or coin for ammo to shoot a KD just yet, but I'd love to. Do most folks run a scope or irons? I assume scope, but I also know it can be done with irons. I don't have the coin for a rifle with great sights (young guy saving for law school and all that), so my bolt gun has a wonderfully imprecise slider Williams peep on it; being ambitious, I'd love to snag that Long Range rocker using a .308 boltie with not-amazing sights, but I'm also a bit prone to Sky Pies.

On a non-equipment note, this reminds me to dry-fire with all my rifles (esp once Savage sends back my bolt gun--appears warranty repair will be necessary to enable it to actually zero).

[maxwell]

Do most folks run a scope or irons? I assume scope, but I also know it can be done with irons. I don't have the coin for a rifle with great sights (young guy saving for law school and all that), so my bolt gun has a wonderfully imprecise slider Williams peep on it; being ambitious, I'd love to snag that Long Range rocker using a .308 boltie with not-amazing sights, but I'm also a bit prone to Sky Pies.

No idea what most people do, but I did it with irons on an AR-15A2. With that compound sliding dovetail on the Williams sight, you'd have to use Battle Sight Zero and holdovers.

[Thaddeus]

As a point of reference, at our KD shoot at Ramseur a couple weekends ago, there were 15 shooters on the line. 12 used an AR-platform with scopes, one used an M1 iron signs, one used an M1A scoped, and one used a bolt action scoped.


I believe all used the battle sight zero method.


And we had 10 of the 15 walk away with their KD patch.