Gucci Ammo or NOT so Gucci Ammo

[navybowhunter]

Hey all,

I have been learning....continuing to improve.  This topic will be on ammo.  Does it need to be Gucci or not?

Define Gucci:  OK....new or once fired (fire formed brass) Lapua brand, CCI BR4 primer, and 80 grain Sierra Match Kings.  But....to make it truly Gucci.....lets say we turned the necks on the brass, only resized to .003" from the fire formed dimensions, trued up the primer pockets, and trimmed/chamfered/deburred the case necks.  Also tested for concentricity, all within .002".  The bulllet tips (meplats) have also been uniformed, and the powder was thrown from say an RCBS Chargemaster and is all within .001 in charge weight.  Prior to seating bullets, they were all measured for length and weight and sorted by such.  Only the ones that weigh the same and are same length will be used.

Non Gucci:  Lets call this Wolf brand already primed new brass.  No brass prep at all.  Charges thrown on an RCBS Chargemaster, still within .001 on charge weight.  Sierra 80 Match King or Hornady 80 AMAX.  No bullet prep either.  Same charge of powder as the GUCCI brand.

Now...to you the reader, which of the above 2 loads will perform better?  Gucci or Non Gucci.

On paper, and in any ballistics app (none of which will take into account the brass prep), the Gucci load would and should obviously perform better, right?  I can agree whole heartedly that it will.

BUT...now introduce, you and your rifle and your system of shooting these GUCCI or NON Gucci loads.

Slung up, unsupported prone.  Which ammo will perform better for you?

I would venture to say that for 99.99% of us, we will be unable to tell a difference either way.  I would venture to say also that were you to experiment with both loads, you would get no significant data points either way.

Here is what I did....I loaded the GUCCI ammo...did everything I mentioned except neck turning.  Shot a match....placed a 194 out of a possible 200.

Did the same with the Non Gucci ammo, placed a 195.

Is that statistically significant?  Not really.  Too much variation and that is in the firearm/and the shooter.

It really does not matter much until you are performing at the High Master level. 

Here is a screen shot of my 600 data book page from a match last weekend.  The score speaks for itself.  I loaded that ammo progressively, during a lunch break from work.

Ammo issues, (assuming one is using a heavy enough bullet that is properly stabilized by the length and twist of the barrel), are rarely the reason for missing the mark on the target. 

It typically takes one a while to realize this, as we all tend to look for excuses to blame poor performance on, be that a rifle, ammo or equipment.

So, as Aggrivere and JMDavis have mentioned in the past, I will echo it...."Do whatever it takes for you to be confident in your ammo"...., but in the long run it really does not matter that much.

As your position and performance improves...., maybe then start looking at tweaking ammo.  But at the point I am at now....comparison of Gucci lapua prepped brass, versus already primed bulk wolf brass.....I cannot HOLD hard enough at this point to tell.

And the scores are way acceptable!

FWIW!

R/
Chris

[navybowhunter]

Also of note on that data book page......

It is REALLY nice when sighter one and sighter two, are in the same spot!

My rough come up (by rough....I mean typically it is in the 9 ring on sighters) is 14 MOA from my 200 yard line zero.

You will see I was performing somewhat of a Riflemans Dance in this match. 

Made a GREAT wind call....as evidenced by my sighters.

Then added some elevation.

Woops...a bit too much elevation, took 1/2 MOA off.

Then I was rockin and rollin!

Gotta love this stuff. 

Was I caught by the wind?  Of course..., but can I truly say my wide shots were wind, or were they me?  I am not sure about that yet.

When I get to a point when I can truly and confidently say I was caught by the wind...., maybe then it will be time to tailor some X ring ammo.

Until then....a 190 anything at 600 yards is acceptable performance for me.

R/
Chris

[navybowhunter]

Now...

Would I have been able to replicate that performance/group using Milsurp ammo like XM855?

A resounding "hell to the no"...LOL

Some things one needs to just accept....and that is that heavier bullets with a good BC perform better at distance.

I could likely put a similar performance up with Federal 77 grain GMM commercial.  Maybe drop a few points....

SO take AS KD.....if we know a heavier bullet with a better BC will perform better at distance, why not shoot the best bullet acceptable for the length and twist rate of your barrel?

Some things ammo wise do make a hell of a difference. 

Something to consider, if anyone is contemplating a KD shoot.  My advice is leave nothing to chance, if your intent is to score high.

If your intent is to "see if you can do it with rack grade/milsurp ammo" then so be it.  But....you truly are not giving yourself the best to be successful with.

R/
Chris

[cwcdl79]

I would add that I need all the help that I can get. With that said, I have more CONFIDENCE in my handloaded ammo, vs. the factory Hornady MATCH, or *gulp* HXP ball. (this is all 30'06). Whether it was the ammo, OR (more likely) the added practice, I won't say, but I did do better. But the confidence in KNOWING that my rounds will perform, eliminates that as a possible issue *excuse*.

[navybowhunter]

Good points Dom....

Yes my experience with HXP has not been that good.  It is perfectly fine however for 200 yard line ammo.  It will hold the 10 ring.  Most of my issues with HXP are not really HXP related....but more and more I am finding it is my skill level with the Garand related. 

Handloaded ammo for me has always performed better than commercial offerings of the same bullet (when shooting supported). Federal Gold Medal Match ammo (FED GMM), is widely accepted as one of the best commercial offerings of ammo available.  Creedmoor Sports is manufacturing their own ammo now as well and that stuff hammers!  It is (in 30-06) offered with Lapua brass, so that is a bonus for us reloaders.

Many years ago I performed a test between FED GMM .308 Ammo in the 175 SMK offering, and compared that to my handloads.  This was supported shooting off a bipod, with a very accurate AR-10.

The handloads beat the FED GMM by almost .25MOA.

That is not a lot....but it is something to be aware of.

I am currently not able to hold/discern .25MOA at the 600 yard line at all.  I just can't tell when shooting from a sling, if the .25MOA shifts in impact are me, or the ammo.

Wolf Match, Black Hills, and a few other manufacturers sell perfectly acceptable match grade ammo with match grade bullets that have a good BC for distance shooting.

All I am saying...is don't get wrapped around the axle on the ammo....with one exception.  Bullet choice/weight and BC at distance.  That is where these heavier bullets shine....at distance.

Take XM855.  That stuff is great for say a 25M AQT.  It will get it done, I have witnessed it.  It will even get it done past 400 yards.  But....can one give themselves a better advantage?  A resounding yes....

I struggled as to where to post this...."Ammo section, or skill sets section"....I chose this section, because it really comes down to fundamentals.....until one has the fundamentals perfected, how can we really blame the ammo?

I have posts in the reloading section, and the ammo section from awhile back...well over a year.  I almost want to go modify them some....as I have learned more since the original posting, LOL....

R/
Chris

[scuzzy]

Is this ammo worth a dang?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2503224613/prvi-partizan-match-ammunition-223-remington-75-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

Man - the Fed GMM is pretty pricey.

[Lomshek]

Is this ammo worth a dang?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2503224613/prvi-partizan-match-ammunition-223-remington-75-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

Man - the Fed GMM is pretty pricey.

An evaluation by Molon on ar15.com showed it to be shooting MOA or less.  If you never venture over there he's proven to be a reliable source of information.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Prvi_Partizan_75_grain_Match_Ammunition___Velocity__Accuracy_and_Terminal_Ballistics/16-491816/?

[Lomshek]

If your intent is to "see if you can do it with rack grade/milsurp ammo" then so be it.  But....you truly are not giving yourself the best to be successful with.

R/
Chris

Mk 262 mod 1 is mil-surp ammo too right?   

[navybowhunter]

MK262 is an exception! LOL

But still Milsurp, if coming from say Lake City.

Anyways..., that Privy stuff Scuzzy should be just fine.

I think when I say Milsurp...I am really meaning that crappy SS109 green tip bullet.  It is awful ballistically.

A 75 grain bullet would be safe for likely all AR twist rates and lengths carbine and longer.

If your barrel has length and twist rate to stabilize a heavier 77 bullet....go with that.

There are soooo many better options than XM855.

R/
Chris

[Rocket Man]

Short way of explaining the OP:  Accuracy does not stack.

This is because shooter accuracy and platform accuracy are uncorrelated errors. 

Suppose we have shooter Alice, who shoots 1 MOA on a good day and 2 MOA on a bad day, as measured using a laser pointer (i.e., zero platform inaccuracy -- this is a measure of her intrinsic ability with everything else ideal).  We also have shooter Bob, who shoots 4 MOA on a good day and 6 MOA on a bad day following the same process.

Now we go out into the real world.  We've got two instructor rifles to choose from.  The first is an Anschutz loaded with Wolf MT, and from a machine rest it prints 1 MOA.  The second is a ragged-out LTR shooting Thunderbolts from boxes left behind at the last shoot, and it can only manage 3 MOA. 

First, let's put Alice on the line.  We don't add her accuracy and the rifle accuracy.  Instead, we add in quadrature:  Add up the squares of the two measurements, and take the square root of the sum.  So with the good rifle, if she's shooting well, we predict her accuracy will be sqrt[(1 MOA)^2 + (1 MOA)^2] = sqrt[2] MOA = 1.4 MOA.  If she's having an off day, she'll shoot at sqrt[(2 MOA)^2 + (1 MOA)^2] = sqrt[5] MOA = 2.2 MOA.  We should thus be able to see whether she's made progress from her groups.

On the other hand, if she uses the well-loved LTR, the numbers work out like this:  Good day -- sqrt[(1 MOA)^2 + (3 MOA)^2] = 3.1 MOA; bad day -- sqrt[(2 MOA)^2 + (3 MOA)^2] = 3.6 MOA.  The difference will be almost invisible.  She won't get much out of training with this one.

Now for Bob:  On a good day, he'll see sqrt[(4 MOA)^2 + (1 MOA)^2] = 4.1 MOA out of the nice rifle and sqrt[(4 MOA)^2 + (3 MOA)^2] = 5 MOA out of the janky one -- he may as well save his money.  On a bad day, this becomes 6.1 MOA out of the nice rifle and 6.7 MOA out of the janky one, an almost undetectable difference.

Moral of the story, until you start approaching the point of outshooting your gear, buying down inaccuracy will have relatively little return on investment.  But when you do, you should upgrade, or you won't see results of your own progress.


Having said that, consistency is another matter.  More expensive ammo that means a lower percentage of fliers may indeed be worth the effort if you're shooting for score.

[scuzzy]

A 75 grain bullet would be safe for likely all AR twist rates and lengths carbine and longer.

If your barrel has length and twist rate to stabilize a heavier 77 bullet....go with that.

There are soooo many better options than XM855.

R/
Chris

Yeah - I can kinda afford the Privy stuff. I'd finally upgraded my AR this last year with an 18 inch barrel with a 1/8 twist. I'd been running stock for years. I kinda think I was able to out shoot it, finally, and did a new barrel and trigger. All low end but better than what I had.

And the XM855 was the crappiest stuff I've ever run. Don't know if I had a bad batch one time or what but talk about big time flyers. And I mean big time. I'd run the XM193, which isn't too bad, before I'll ever touch 855 again.

[maxwell]

Yeah - I can kinda afford the Privy stuff. I'd finally upgraded my AR this last year with an 18 inch barrel with a 1/8 twist. I'd been running stock for years. I kinda think I was able to out shoot it, finally, and did a new barrel and trigger. All low end but better than what I had.

I like Prvi ammo. IMI has Sierra 69 gr and 77 gr loads that are supposed to be good, and reasonably priced. Someone on the US Rifle Teams forum posted recently that the Norma 55 gr that Brownells and Midsouth are dumping will hold the 10-ring on the MR-31 target. Not bad for 30 cpr! https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0001320157442hc/223-remington-tac-55-grain-fmj-20-boxes-of-20-rounds-(400-round-half-case)

And the XM855 was the crappiest stuff I've ever run. Don't know if I had a bad batch one time or what but talk about big time flyers. And I mean big time. I'd run the XM193, which isn't too bad, before I'll ever touch 855 again.

M855 sucks, and there's no reason to use it unless you're shooting at a late-70s Soviet helmet. M193 is significantly more accurate and consistent, at least from a good manufacturer.

[scuzzy]

I like Prvi ammo. IMI has Sierra 69 gr and 77 gr loads that are supposed to be good, and reasonably priced. Someone on the US Rifle Teams forum posted recently that the Norma 55 gr that Brownells and Midsouth are dumping will hold the 10-ring on the MR-31 target. Not bad for 30 cpr! https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0001320157442hc/223-remington-tac-55-grain-fmj-20-boxes-of-20-rounds-(400-round-half-case)

Went ahead and ordered the Norma. Nice price. Read a bunch of reviews on the net before ordering. Everybody thought it was good stuff. Gotta be better than the lake city I was gonna use at a KD.

I'll get the heavier grain Prvi next time.