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KD event in New Philly June 10 & 11, 2017

Started by Corvette, June 12, 2017, 01:13:58 AM

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Corvette

Oh my, what a wonderful KD event we just completed at Tusco Rifle Club in New Philadelphia, Ohio this weekend. We had 17 shooters show up Saturday morning to test their skills at a full distance event.  Saturday started with a mix of sun and rain.  Luckily, the range had a covered line and we were able to do the welcome, the safety brief and the initial KD review under cover while the rains came through.

The rain stopped right on queue when we were ready to move to the line and start sending rounds down range. We started the day with a zero confirmation at 100 yds and moved into the full distance AQTs.  The first AQT was shot and we had our first two shooters qualify at full distance in the very first AQT.

Saturday moved forward and by lunch, we had two more shooters qualifed at full distance.  At lunch on Saturday we shared a presentation on Paul Revere and his accomplishments beyond carring the word of the British march on Lexington and Concord.

Two more AQTs were shot on Saturday afternoon and the day came to a succesful close. 

We had some folks that could not join us on Sunday and we were reduced to thirteen shooters.

However, everyone came to work hard on their skills.  After a number of Sunday AQTs, we had made several more full distance riflemen. 

Sunday ended with a challenge to hit steel at 600 yds. 

Overall of 17 shooters, we had 8 shoot riflemen at full distance.  Four of the eight backed up their scores with two more qualifying scores.  It was truely an amazing weekend.

My thanks to the Tusco Rifle Club, to EZ3, Chippendale, Invictus Maneo, TexasT, and Dom for helping with this event. 

Corvette
:pics:
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

Corvette

#1
I forgot to call out our new full distance Riflemen.  This was a "hits count event".

Mark 32,33,35
Ethan (only 16 years old) 32
Robert (Dom) 32
Ken  32
Calvin  38, 35, 36
David  35, 32, 32
Bruce  32
Thomas  32, 33, 35

We were blessed with a great number of "men who know what they are about" this weekend.

Corvette
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

PA10mm

It was a great weekend at New Philly.

I was very impressed by the skills of fellow shooters, and the instructors ran an excellent safe event like always. Your hard work is appreciated.

Hope to see everyone again soon! Huzzah!!
Became a Rifleman on April 20, 2014.

Ricochet Rabbit

Great weekend of shooting and heritage! This is my first time camping at an event, so I got to see more of the behind-the-scenes work. I salute the instructors, and, in particular, the shoot boss. It is truly amazing, the amount of work put in by these VOLUNTEERS. Thanks to one and all for a spectacular event. Huzzah!
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

cwcdl79

GREAT weekend, and HUZZAH to those that came out to test their mettle against that archnemesis, Known Distance.

Texas T

#5
The day started with heavy rain, but the clouds quickly parted and sunny skies prevailed for the remainder of the event. 400 yards seems like it is a long distance (I guess that's the idea). There are targets out there, somewhere...
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

Saturday morning brought out two of the best, with many more to come...
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

And the afternoon brought forth three more...
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

#8
Sunday allowed three more to come forward, a total of eight for the event...
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

A couple of shots from the line...
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

#10
Before it was over, a new Orange Hat was accepted...

Of course, the camo came off when the hat went on.
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Texas T

Rounding out the day with some 600-yard steel...


Thanks to Tusco Rifle Club for allowing us to use the facilities.
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

Mutant Texan

I am so bummed that I could not make it to this event.  I was so excited when I signed up last January only to be crushed that I could not make it.  I am stuck in Illinois on a temporary assignment that lasts until mid August.  The weather looked like it was hot and clear (almost perfect range weather).

For those that don't know it, Illinois is a state that requires you to have a government issued permit to buy ammunition.  Every single time I stop by at Cabelas in Gary, IN, they ask to see my FOID card!  The store is in Indiana yet they still insist on enforcing a law in a different state.  Lucky for me, I never established residency in Illinois when I took a job located in the suburbs of Chicago in 2015.  You don't appreciate what rights you have until they are taken away.

Out of curiosity, what gear and ammo were the 8 KD Riflemen using?  I am still debating which AR-15 I should bring to a KD event (16.1" vs 20" barrel).  I see many AR-15s with 16.1" barrels in the pics.   

"Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills."

    Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian, AD 37--101, on the Roman military

Corvette

We had a real mix of rifles.  The majority were AR's and most were 16".  But we had a 5.56 SCAR, M1A, two different FAL's (L1A1 and an STG), and a G3. Generally, it wasn't the rifle, it was the Rifleman that made the difference.

Corvette
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

Ricochet Rabbit

Quote from: Mutant Texan on June 12, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
Out of curiosity, what gear and ammo were the 8 KD Riflemen using?  I am still debating which AR-15 I should bring to a KD event (16.1" vs 20" barrel).  I see many AR-15s with 16.1" barrels in the pics.

Colt Competition Series CBA-16H (16" w/1 in 8 twist)
Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP
IMI 77gr Razor Core
"The most natural and eligible mode of attack on the part of the people is that of detached parties of bushmen who from their adroitness in the habitual use of the firelock suppose themselves sure of their mark at a distance of 200 [yards]." - Thomas Gage, March 4th, 1775

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption
of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the
Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

"When all connection, upheld by commerce, with the mother country, shall cease, it may be suspected that an independency of her government will soon follow." - Thomas Gage

goodoldfriend

I really enjoyed the time I spent Saturday.

I had some physical limitations I was dealing with Saturday after the shoot so I headed down the trail. Sorry I did not give the group an earlier heads up.

I can see that I have some work to do before November's event. I have to work on shooting at distance and learning my system.

And, most importantly, I have to work on physical conditioning.

Thanks to everyone who attended. I had a blast.

Huzzah to those who made the cut. I will be a cook for a while longer....LOL
1st Appleseed 11/23/2012, Crittenden, KY
2nd Appleseed 7/16/2016, Wilmington, OH
3rd Appleseed 10/2/2016, Newark, OH
Rifleman (213) 10/2/2016

EZ3

Tusco is an awesome club, and their 600 yard range is perfect for this event.  Kudos to those who earned their Long Range rocker (or bar), and mega-kudos to Corvette and the instructor crew who refused to be stymied by the elements.  Particularly the wind that was bound and determined to dismantle the target line!

:snipersmi
"You can't teach Liberty by practicing tyranny." -  Mr. Happy

XFire Hurricane

Great time! Glad to see so many people qualify and so many smiling faces. Great time as always and looking forward to get out there again.

-Ethan

JustaShooter

#18
Apologies for the length of the post, but I wanted to get everything down from this weekend while it is still fresh in my mind.

First off, what an *outstanding* event!  I can't say enough about how well the instructors and line / shoot bosses ran things this weekend.  I'm embarrassed to say that as a group of veteran Appleseed Riflemen that we needed a bit of chastisement more than once on firing line discipline - but as always Corvette and crew handled it like the professionals they are.  This being only the 2nd KD Event at this range, there were improvements from the first one last year, and things that were learned that can be applied to later events.  Fantastic job guys, you deserve kudos for a job well done. Huzzah!

Onward with my journey:

This was my first KD event, and my first Appleseed in almost two years.  My goal was first and foremost to safely and willingly take instruction and learn how to apply the principles I learned in the 25m events I had attended to the long range discipline, then to continually improve my skills as I applied that instruction, and finally, hopefully, to join the ranks of KD / Long Distance Riflemen.  I had done well with my RRA LAR15 carbine chambered in 5.56 at my last Appleseed in the Fall of 2015 and brought it along. It was somewhat heavy and had a red dot & flip-out 3x magnifier, not exactly what I wanted to use for full distance. Still, it was exactly as I had left it and I knew it ran well, so it made sense as a backup. I decided to bring another RRA LAR15 I had recently acquired from a friend that had a lighter aftermarket quad rail as my primary, and topped it with a new to me but promising optic, a Burris AR-332 3x prism scope with a reticle providing hold over dots for various ranges.

As the weekend began and we participated in the safety briefing and initial instruction, I think we were all concerned at the periodic showers that rolled through.  Thankfully, we had a covered area behind the 400 yard line and were able to wait out the rain while taking instruction and when done proceeded out to set up for sighting in and the first AQT without any delay. I was expecting a bit more preparation to transition from 25m to full distance in the form of multiple sighter stages, but that wasn't to be the case. We were going to shoot one round of sighters and go right into the first AQT.

After we walked down from the 400 yard line to the target line to hang sighter targets and then back to the 100 yard line to begin preparing to shoot our sighters, I was to make my first of many mistakes of the weekend.  I had been able to get a solid 25m zero before coming out to the event, but hadn't been able to get zeroed at 100 yards to be able to use my scope's hold overs which rely on a 100 yard zero. I adjusted my optics during prep with a guess based on the earier instruction as to the difference between the 25m and 100 yard zero and literally threw all of my shots off the sighter target. With no backer I had no idea where everything had gone.

Confused, I didn't realize what I had done until after the line was made safe in preparation for the AQT. As I was replaying things in my mind I realized I had made the adjustmenst the wrong direction!  And since we didn't get another round of sighters I had to make my correction during the preparation period for the standing stage. I hurriedly cranked the adjustment back to where I started - I hoped.  Just exactly how many clicks had I put on it!!?? I then threw the same amount in the correct direction, finished a rushed prep just barely in time to be in position for the "ready on the firing line" command. I called one shot over the target's left shoulder, and managed to put the remaining 9 into the red. Not bad for me, but there was no discernible group. I might as well have fired a load of 00 buckshot the pattern was so big.

By this point I was so rattled that during the rest of the AQT I wasn't able to settle in properly and apply the skills our instructors had so patiently tried to drill into my skull.  Had I put enough elevation adjustment into the optics?  Was my windage anywhere near correct? Since I had only put elevation onto the scope and hadn't been able to shoot it with a sling before now to see what effect that had on my POI I had no idea.  I didn't feel good about my position & steady hold factors throughout the rest of the AQT, forget about NPOA. We also ran into a few operational difficulties along the way - shooters on the right half of the line couldn't see their targets in prone due to the intervening terrain so we shot in flights from the left side of the line, plus the wind would occasionally dislodge a target causing us to send someone downrange to reattach them, so everone had to stand idly by in the building heat.  Both issues were to plague us the entire day even though we repositioned the target backers to elevate them and added more clips to help secure them.  Please note that this should *not* take anything away from the excellent job Corvette and the other volunteers did. It happened - and we learned from it and adapted.

When we scored targets, I had managed to put a total of 21 hits in the red. Except for one I knew I'd pushed high during the standing stage and the other 9 from that stage, most everything was low, and the holes in the bottom part of the backer were *everywhere*. No discernabble group or distribution or any other indication of what had happened beyond most everrything being low - and to add insult to injury I couldn't even find all 40 of my shots. Something like 10 or more of them were nowhere to be found. Somewhat puzzled, I began the walk back to the covered area behind the 400 yard line with the group. Suddenly it dawned on me that I had made yet another mistake - I hadn't used the holdover points in my reticle.  Well of course, that meant the shots went low. The 200 yard stage would have been close-ish, but the 300 and 400 yard stages wouldn't have been anywhere near where they belonged. At least I knew what I had done, and had hope I could correct it in the next AQT.

Fortunately, there was plenty of good news during that first AQT - Calvin shot his 38! *Outstanding*! One other shooter also earned his KD Rifleman, and there were several others who were knocking on the door.  Huzzah! and congratulations all round, and we then broke for lunch, whereupon I made my next mistake of the weekend.  The wonderful folks at Tusco had prepared a lunch for us, only asking for donations (which they then turned around and donated to Kids On Target, who were also there Saturday morning).  To put it mildly, while we got another dose of history and heritage from the instructors, I ate too much. As an already overweight 52-year-old with slightly elevated blood pressure, you'd think I'd have known better, especially with the weather forecast of 85+ degree heat, tons of humidity, and the hot sun beating down. Nope, not me - I never claimed to be smart, after all.

As we got ready for the next AQT, shot Aussie-style from 400 down to 100, I was doing OK. I'd been staying hydrated and although a bit "satisfied" from lunch I was ready for the AQT and purposed to carefully set up my position & steady hold factors, get NPOA, shoot by the numbers, and hold dead center of the target using my holdovers.  As we shot each stage I thought I was performing well - I wouldn't say I felt great about any of the stages but not bad. I didn't think I had completely blown anything, and really just wanted to see where the shots were forming up on the target so I could see what adjustments I needed to make.

As we scored and pasted targets I had the privilige to score a Rifleman target for the shooter to my right who had missed qualifying by one or two shots in the first AQT, and who was to eventually take an Orange Hat later in the event. In addition, there was another new KD Rifleman farther down the line, and a couple of Riflemen repeated thier achievement with another qualifying score! Huzzah!  When it came time to score my target, I had improved to a 25 - progress! But not only that, I was able to see a general distribution to the shots. I was hitting low and left, and it really looked like each stage was progressively lower and more leftward.  Wind wasn't an issue so far during the actual shooting part of the AQT, so I wasn't sure if it was my zero, my technique, or what.  Still, I had something to work with which was more than I had after the first AQT. 

Determined to persevere and succeed, and knowing I really didn't have enough data to make a scope adjustment, much less enough time to make it, I made a decision. In addition to making sure to actually use the scope holdovers for the final AQT of the day I would hold center at 100, a bit high & right at 200, even more toward the curve of the neck at 300, and a touch inside of the curve of the neck at 400 - and hope that would be enough. Unfortunately, I had begun to feel the effects of my overindulgent lunch as the previous AQT had progressed. By this time I was starting to feel miserable - I was tired, hot, sweaty, and a bit queasy, was breathing hard, and could feel my heart pounding as we made our way to the 100 yard line to start the AQT.

In spite of that I was able to get good position at each stage (well, as good as I normally can) and purposed to attain the Rifleman's Bubble while focusing on my steady hold factors, NPOA and shooting by the numbers.  Only the next shot mattered as I shot each stage, and only the next step mattered as I carried my gear from one shooting line to the next.  As I completed the 400 yard slow-fire prone stage I felt like I had a chance. I had done everything I was supposed to do as well as I could, and had remembered to hold progressively more high and right for each distance. 

As we scored targets I was elated to find out that it had been enough! Even though there was still clearly a low-left distribution, by the skin of my teeth I had scored a 32 with two shots just breaking the edge of the red target (yup, one on the left edge and one on the bottom edge).  I'll be honest, I'm not sure if anyone else qualified or re-qualified during that AQT. Between my feeling of satisfaction that I had qualified as a KD Rifleman and pressing fatigue, I was pretty self-involved.  We made our way back to the covered area behind the 400 yard line where we relaxed in the shade and breeze and wrapped up for the day.

During the day, a good friend and co-worker had been shooting alongside of me and had been having his own struggles. He hadn't been able to get a good zero before the event, wasn't sure of his come-ups and didn't have any DOPE on his platform.  Since I am a member at Tusco and am allowed to have a guest with me when shooting, I invited him to stay after the event concluded for the day and go up to the 300 yard Utility Range.  I had started feeling better by now and knowing we'd be shooting from a covered position in the shade and wouldn't be schlepping gear from line to line I figured I'd be OK and we could see if we could get him zeroed, figure out his come-ups, and maybe I could figure out my low-left problem while we were at it.

We were able to get him a good zero, if a bit large of a group. Turns out some of his problem was ammo - he had been using Wolf ammo which isn't the best stuff out there (frankly, I'm not sure if it is even the best of the worst stuff out there).  I can generally hold close to one MOA at 100 yards with a good rifle and optics, which he had, but I'm not sure the group I shot was much less than 4MOA.  Pretty hard to shoot to a 4MOA standard if your ammo isn't capable of anything better than that. We talked about his comeups, but he has a Mil-Dot scope with .1 Mil clicks and I kept getting confused about converting from MOA to Mils and neither of us were sure if we'd come up with a soluton for his comeups.  On top of that, my 100 yard zero was pretty well where it should be - maybe an MOA high, and a half MOA left. I put a bit more windage on it to bring it about a half MOA right of center, hoping that would help with my issue putting shots left, but I still didn't know why I had been hitting low, especially with a sightly high 100 yard zero.  Feeling wiped out, but having accomplished something, we decided to call it a day and head out.

After the 45 minute drive home, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do first - shower, eat, or sleep. Knowing that if I went to sleep the other two wouldn't happen, food won out, so a quick clean up, small meal, and then a glorious shower.  Feeling more human again, I organized my gear for the next day (with an eye to carrying a lighter load downrange this time) and gave my rifle a quick cleaning and lubrication, enough to feel comfortable about another day of shooting, then hit the sack early.

The next morning many of us arrived early, eager to start the day. While waiting for everyone to get there, one of the other shooters introduced my friend and me to a smartphone app Strelok Pro, and between him and the app gave my friend some guidance on the come-ups he'd need for the various distances.  Eventually the instructors called roll and it turned out several people didn't show, having other obligations (or perhaps deciding the forecast of 90+ degree heat was too much). That shortened the line and allowed us to move the line to the left to avoid some of the terrain issues on the right side of the line.  In addition, Corvette had devised a way to get the targets higher off the gound (but still safely well below the rear berm of the range) and secure them better against the gusting wind.  After some more history and heritage, we headed down range with our gear to the 100 yard line to shoot another round of sighters and start the first AQT.

Even though we were feeling good about our zeroes, my friend and I went ahead and shot the sigher round if for no other reason than to get a few warming and fouling shots through our rifles since neither of us know our clean/cold-bore zeroes. Zeros confirmed, we were on to the first AQT of the day, and I felt pretty good about it. I was still holding a touch high and right but not as much as on the AQT where I qualified the day before, trusting my zero and slight windage adjustment. A bit sore from the day before and still getting limbered up, I felt pretty good about the stages, but not great, and scored a 31. Huh. Not what I'd hoped. The target showed a *lot* of low-left, and still no understanding of *why*.

Still, one of the principles of a Rifleman is that we persevere and adapt - isn't that what the Rifleman's Dance is really about?  Back to the 100 yard line with renewed determination and knowing that though I might not know the why, I knew the effect, and more importantly I knew how to adapt to it. Understanding could come later, my task *now* was to apply what I knew about the results I'd observed to how I was executing my shots and put them on target.  As we performed each stage of the AQT and worked our way from 100 to 200, 300, then 400 yards I kept making sure to apply that principle to my shots in addition to building a good position with steady hold factors, NPOA, shooting by the numbers, living in the Rifleman's Bubble. I held progressively higher and farther right at each distance and really felt good about my performance in the AQT.

Another item of note during that AQT - as I rolled up my shooting mat after one of the stages, I saw what at first appeard to be a spent .22LR case rolling across my mat.  Curious, as there really shouldn't be anything like that out here in the middle of the 600 yard range, I picked it up.  It was a solid cylinder of brass roughly the size of a .22LR case with maybe 3/16" of threads at one end and a screw slot in the other.  Having never seen anything like it before I asked my friend and another couple of shooters if they recognized it. Nobody could remmeber ever seeing anything like it, and those familiar with the AR platform did not believe it was from my rifle.  I dropped it in my pocket and continued on with the AQT.

After the end of the AQT since we were already at the covered position behind the 400 yard line and it was about noon, we decided to break for lunch and score the targets and prep for the next AQT when we went downrange to start the next AQT after lunch. Mindful of yesterday's near-catastrophe I ate a light lunch and made sure to take advantage of the rest period in the shade, continuing to be sure to stay hydrated, and absorbed another episode of history and heritage from the cadre. When we headed down to the target line to score and prepare for the next AQT I was rewarded with reinforcement that the techniques taught by our patient instructors *work*. I had scored a 35, confirmation that if I actually followed the guidance I was given and applied the techniques I'd been taught, the results would speak for themselves on the target.

We began the 3rd AQT of the day well after 1pm, and I was starting to feel the effects of the 90-degree weather under the unrelenting sun. Still, I felt good about my first two stages - and then the shooter to my left got my attention at the end of the 200 yard stage and pointed to my rifle and said he knew where that brass piece I'd found came from. Sure enough, there was another brass fastner just like the first one peeking out between the rail adapter and the upper receiver - and had the rail adapter been rotated any farther it too would have fallen out.  The rail felt a little loose, and I had no idea how many other fastners might have been lost along the way.

I decided to complete the AQT but didn't feel comfortable slinging up as tightly as I would otherwise have done given the loose rail. Once the AQT was finished, I decided that would be the end of my day. We headed downrange to score targets, and the shooter to my left who had been knocking at the door all weekend finally broke into the ranks of KD Riflemen with a 32! Huzzah!  There was another Rifleman score farther down the line, and I had also managed a Rifleman score - another 32. 

As my friend put it, once might be luck, twice could be coincidence, but three times is for real. So I guess that makes me a KD Rifleman for real.  Sure don't feel like I've arrived, though - my targets aren't anything to write home about, I have consistency issues, and I *still* don't know what is happening to throw my shots progressively farther low and left. But I do know that as a Rifleman, I have another part of the dance to perform: After getting my rail re-secured (properly this time), it's time to do the research, examine my equipment, spend time on the range, whatever it takes to get my low-left issue understood and corrected.  Because, you see, I'm signed up for another Appleseed KD Event at Tusco this Fall, and I want to take what I've learned and continue the process of improvement...

Oh, as for my friend? Although he continued to improve and thinks he has a good handle on his comeups, he wasn't able to earn his KD Rifleman this time out. But he also is embarking on an improvement regimen, starting with better ammo and joining me at the range a few times between now and the Fall - because he is also signed up for the Fall Appleseed KD Event, and he intends to join the ranks of KD Riflemen. With his spirit of perseverance and determination, I have no doubt he can do it.
Christian, Husband, Father
Rifleman

NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Rifle & Pistol Instructor

Corvette

Justashooter,

It was indeed a pleasure to work with you and your friend this past weekend. All I can say is Huzzah and remember a Rifleman persists and can always do something more to improve their skills.

Corvette
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

JustaShooter

A quick update. (No, not nearly as long as my AAR above):

After a bit of research I think I know what caused my low-left problems.  Two causes, actually. 

First, the shots impacting farther left as the distances progressed looks to be due to scope cant.  The Burris AR-332 I was using was canted counter-clockwise a bit.  So, when I mounted the rifle and sighted on the target and naturally brought the cross-hairs plumb by rotating the rifle clockwise, it pushed the barrel left.  The issue appears to be the mount itself, not the scope or reticle so I'll contact Burris and go from there.

Next, the low problem. Most likely you veterans probably already know what the problem was - but in my defense it was the first time I had ever used a reticle with holdovers and am still learning about them. But yes, it was because out of my 16" carbine, the velocity produced by the ammo was much lower than the reticle was calibrated for.  So, I either need to use a longer barrel, ammo that produces the expected ballistics out of my current barrel to match the reticle, or continue to hold high on the target after learning *how* high I need to hold.

Once I get progress on both fronts it will be time to get back out to the range so I can be ready for the November KD.
Christian, Husband, Father
Rifleman

NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Rifle & Pistol Instructor

Nashville Stage

#21
Quote from: JustaShooter on June 14, 2017, 11:17:16 PM
First, the shots impacting farther left as the distances progressed looks to be due to scope cant.  The Burris AR-332 I was using was canted counter-clockwise a bit.  So, when I mounted the rifle and sighted on the target and naturally brought the cross-hairs plumb by rotating the rifle clockwise, it pushed the barrel left.  The issue appears to be the mount itself, not the scope or reticle so I'll contact Burris and go from there.

Excellent observations! Those observational skills will serve you well as you work through the details & figure out which aspects to work on next.
Perhaps I'm missing something in your setup, but a canted scope is usually caused by the scope body being slightly rotated within the scope mount rings, though it can be caused by other things. Rotating the scope body in the opposite direction as the cant/tilt should fix it, regardless of the cause.

One way of testing your setup is to place the rifle on a shooting bag or bi-pod to hold it steady, then make sure the rifle is plumb, usually by placing a level across a flat portion of the receiver. Once the rifle is plumb, look through the scope reticle & see if the vertical line is parallel to a known plumb object or a plumb line string. If not, loosen the scope mount rings & rotate the scope as needed.

To confirm your setup, do a real world test. Take a really tall target (at least 5-6 feet if possible; more is better) and shoot it at varying distances. Don't adjust the scope between distances, and don't change your point of aim. Mark a spot on the target & aim for it each time. Start shooting up close, then progressively work back to several hundred yards (or wherever your bullets finally fall off the bottom of the target). Your shots will land at different heights on the target, depending on your distance. They should form a nice vertical line, which is good! What you want to see is if that line is tilted. If it is, then your scope and/or mount is rotated with respect to your rifle barrel. Rotate the scope in the opposite direction to fix the problem, then repeat the shooting test to verify your adjustments.

Quote from: JustaShooter on June 14, 2017, 11:17:16 PM
Next, the low problem. Most likely you veterans probably already know what the problem was - but in my defense it was the first time I had ever used a reticle with holdovers and am still learning about them. But yes, it was because out of my 16" carbine, the velocity produced by the ammo was much lower than the reticle was calibrated for.  So, I either need to use a longer barrel, ammo that produces the expected ballistics out of my current barrel to match the reticle, or continue to hold high on the target after learning *how* high I need to hold.

As you've discovered, BDC reticles will only get you in the ballpark. Variations in your bullet velocity, bullet drag, rifle barrel, wind, weather, distance to the center of the planet, and whether a butterfly flapped its wings nearby will change the point of impact with respect to whatever the reticle was calibrated to. The most versatile way of dialing in your hold-overs is to go out to the range & shoot groups at varying distances. Find out where on the reticle you need to hold for each distance, and make notes in a little notebook that you keep with you. The next time you shoot at that distance with that load, look up your notes & you're ready to go. A variation on that theme is to note how many MOA the shots change at varying distances, and dial that into your scope (from your notes) when you change distances. Then just hold center on the reticle.

Using this process, you don't have to find that one exact barrel or be locked in to one specific load that happens to match your BDC reticle exactly.
Good luck, and happy shooting!
"There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

maxwell

Quote from: Nashville Stage on June 15, 2017, 02:37:49 PM
Quote from: JustaShooter on June 14, 2017, 11:17:16 PM
First, the shots impacting farther left as the distances progressed looks to be due to scope cant.  The Burris AR-332 I was using was canted counter-clockwise a bit.  So, when I mounted the rifle and sighted on the target and naturally brought the cross-hairs plumb by rotating the rifle clockwise, it pushed the barrel left.  The issue appears to be the mount itself, not the scope or reticle so I'll contact Burris and go from there.
Perhaps I'm missing something in your setup, but a canted scope is usually caused by the scope body being slightly rotated within the scope mount rings, though it can be caused by other things. Rotating the scope body in the opposite direction as the cant/tilt should fix it, regardless of the cause.

Correct, but the Burris 332 has a fixed baseplate, with a rail or carry handle mount screwed to it. If it's canted, the scope itself needs repair, unfortunately.

Quote from: Nashville Stage on June 15, 2017, 02:37:49 PM
A variation on that theme is to note how many MOA the shots change at varying distances, and dial that into your scope (from your notes) when you change distances. Then just hold center on the reticle.

Using this process, you don't have to find that one exact barrel or be locked in to one specific load that happens to match your BDC reticle exactly.

This is really the correct way to do it, IMNSHO. You have less chance for error (oh &*$^ I used the wrong line/dot in the reticle), since you'll always be using a consistent sight picture, and your click adjustments should be finer than the gradations. I guess the notion of a reticle holdover and Kentucky windage fits with Appleseed's hits-count philosophy, but in my mind it's counter to everything we teach at 25m. YMMV.

Congrats on the KD qual, though, JustaShooter, and on diagnosing your problems!

JustaShooter

Quote from: maxwell on June 15, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Nashville Stage on June 15, 2017, 02:37:49 PM
Quote from: JustaShooter on June 14, 2017, 11:17:16 PM
First, the shots impacting farther left as the distances progressed looks to be due to scope cant.  The Burris AR-332 I was using was canted counter-clockwise a bit.  So, when I mounted the rifle and sighted on the target and naturally brought the cross-hairs plumb by rotating the rifle clockwise, it pushed the barrel left.  The issue appears to be the mount itself, not the scope or reticle so I'll contact Burris and go from there.
Perhaps I'm missing something in your setup, but a canted scope is usually caused by the scope body being slightly rotated within the scope mount rings, though it can be caused by other things. Rotating the scope body in the opposite direction as the cant/tilt should fix it, regardless of the cause.

Correct, but the Burris 332 has a fixed baseplate, with a rail or carry handle mount screwed to it. If it's canted, the scope itself needs repair, unfortunately.


Quite so - from my  investigation, it appears it is the design of the included mount that is the cause.  The right-hand side of the mount has the typical notch to mate with the Picatinny rail, but the left side does not, and simply has a wedge to fit under the side of the rail.  Normally this would not cause an issue as long as the notch on the right side of the unit is machined precisely enough so that the underside of the mount is mated flat and flush to the top of the rail.  However, that is not the case with this mount. Instead, the notch mates with the rail in such a way that it causes the right side of the base of the mount to sit approximately 0.010 high off the rail, so when the left side is tightened down flush with the rail it produces the cant I observed.

From reading various reviews online and seeing a number of others reporting a canted reticle, I suspect that this is not a one-off issue but rather a design issue with the mount.   I've contacted Burris customer service to inquire about a different design of mount or a corrected version of the included mount to exchange with my mount.

Quote from: maxwell on June 15, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Nashville Stage on June 15, 2017, 02:37:49 PM
A variation on that theme is to note how many MOA the shots change at varying distances, and dial that into your scope (from your notes) when you change distances. Then just hold center on the reticle.

Using this process, you don't have to find that one exact barrel or be locked in to one specific load that happens to match your BDC reticle exactly.

This is really the correct way to do it, IMNSHO. You have less chance for error (oh &*$^ I used the wrong line/dot in the reticle), since you'll always be using a consistent sight picture, and your click adjustments should be finer than the gradations. I guess the notion of a reticle holdover and Kentucky windage fits with Appleseed's hits-count philosophy, but in my mind it's counter to everything we teach at 25m. YMMV.

I understand what you are saying - and don't necessarily disagree.  For that approach I'd really prefer a different optic as the elevation and windage adjustments on this scope are made with small capped dials, clearly intended to be set and left alone.  Were it not for that, this would be my ideal optic: 3x, just enough to help with my ageing eyes but not so much that the field of view is significantly reduced, parallax-free, lit reticle for adverse lighting conditions but still shows a black reticle if batteries are dead, clean, uncluttered reticle with various size subtentions to help with range estimation. 

I'd certainly be open to suggestions for alternate scopes that might be a good fit for me that have target knobs instead of those small dials.

Quote from: maxwell on June 15, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
Congrats on the KD qual, though, JustaShooter, and on diagnosing your problems!

Thanks! It was a great weekend, and I'm chuffed as can be that I was able to earn my KD qual.  Pretty happy I was able to diagnose my low-left problem as well - it would have driven me mad had I not.  Of course, this still has to be confirmed in the field... 
Christian, Husband, Father
Rifleman

NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Rifle & Pistol Instructor

Texas T

#24
Don't feel like you are the only one who stumbled this weekend. I had a new scope, since I attempted iron sights last year, and couldn't even see the target at 400 yards. I didn't have an opportunity to practice with it enough, only finding enough time to get it sighted in. I was also attempting to use the bullet drop compensation in the reticle, and blew the 200 and 300 yard at least 2 of the 3 AQTs. Shooting my 10-22 and 15-22, I guess that I'm just used to looking at the center of the cross-hairs, and didn't take time to think about it on the short-timed strings. Even when I thought about it ahead of time, and called myself "stupid" for forgetting on the last string, I still hit a mental stumble and blew it.  :wb:

Oh well, there is always next time. As long as we can learn from our mistakes, there will plenty of opportunity to make more.   :snipersmi
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."  Mark Twain


First Appleseed, September 26-27, 2015;   First Rifleman, September 27, 2015;   First Redcoat, September 27, 2015;   Second Rifleman, September 27, 2015

Thanks Corvette, great instruction!!!

MI IBC, February 2017

maxwell

Quote from: JustaShooter on June 15, 2017, 09:53:20 PM
From reading various reviews online and seeing a number of others reporting a canted reticle, I suspect that this is not a one-off issue but rather a design issue with the mount.   I've contacted Burris customer service to inquire about a different design of mount or a corrected version of the included mount to exchange with my mount.

Yeah, I recall seeing some of those reviews too. However, I have an AR-332, and it's not canted as far as I can tell. I like the optic, though it's on an AR that I never have time to shoot :(.

Quote from: JustaShooter on June 15, 2017, 09:53:20 PM
I understand what you are saying - and don't necessarily disagree.  For that approach I'd really prefer a different optic as the elevation and windage adjustments on this scope are made with small capped dials, clearly intended to be set and left alone.  Were it not for that, this would be my ideal optic: 3x, just enough to help with my ageing eyes but not so much that the field of view is significantly reduced, parallax-free, lit reticle for adverse lighting conditions but still shows a black reticle if batteries are dead, clean, uncluttered reticle with various size subtentions to help with range estimation. 

I'd certainly be open to suggestions for alternate scopes that might be a good fit for me that have target knobs instead of those small dials.

I hear you on that. If they didn't require a screwdriver or coin, it would be better for KD target shooting, but that's not the use case for the 332 optic, and you ARE using it correctly. As I said, I like the 332, but don't have a lot of trigger time with it.

On the other side, I have a 3X Nikon P-223 that just about fits your bill, with a BDC reticle and target turrets. It's not illuminated, and I suspect parallax is fixed at 100 yards, but it's pretty bright and was on sale for $120. My other optic is a Vortex Viper PST 1-4, which I bought for the day when my eyes no longer handle A2 sights. ::) I like it, and it was a closeout deal at $320.

PaRifle1777

Corvette,
Just a short note to say Thank you to you and your team of instructors.  You and your team did an outstanding job this weekend.  Being one of the guys on the right end of the line I especially appreciate your determination in coming up with a solution to the target issues we experienced on Saturday.  There seemed to be no issues on Sunday and the target height seemed to be perfect.

Thanks again.  See you in November.

Joe F.

cr0sswind

Kudos to Corvette and the entire group of instructors and ROs for putting on such a successful event in challenging conditions! The rain, followed by hot and humid temps made for a long day, but you all kept the line moving.

I have no place to work out my 200, 300, & 400 come-ups, so was relying on making educated guesses for starters. Your recommendation of 2-2-3 for my AR turned out to be spot on for my 16" barrel and 62gr Federal Am Eagle ammo.

I was truly stunned when we approached our first AQT targets and saw that many hits! Fortunately, I was able to back up that rifleman score with a couple more before my weekend was done. I wish I could have stayed past lunch on Sunday. Would have loved to try my hand at the 600 yd steel!

I plan to attend another KD event in the near future, but would prefer to not take a line spot from a first-timer. Will likely hold off until next spring/summer if there is one then. Hopefully, we can repeat at Tusco. What a wonderful club!

One thing I was wondering about, was if the targets were to be set nearer to the 600yd line, would that dip and corresponding hump be avoided? I know that would put everyone further from the cover, though. Just spit-balling...

Thank you again for a wonderful event! Huzzah!!  :---

Calvin
Rifleman Vienna, OH, April 18, 2009
Re-qualified Slippery Rock, PA, August 8, 2010
Re-qualified Salem, OH, June 28, 2014
Long Range Rifleman New Philly, OH, June 10, 2017
Re-qualified Long Range Rifleman New Philly, OH Nov 11, 2017
Distinguished Rifleman Conneaut, OH, June 3, 2018

Corvette

Calvin,

With the revised line on Sunday, the "dip" wasn't a problem.  Feel free to join us in November and don't worry about taking someone else's spot.  It was great to work with you this past weekend.  You did some fine work. Congratulations.

Corvette
Be bold, brave and forthright and the bold, the brave and the forthright will gather around you!

cr0sswind

OK, you twisted my arm!  :)) Will be there!  ^:)^
Rifleman Vienna, OH, April 18, 2009
Re-qualified Slippery Rock, PA, August 8, 2010
Re-qualified Salem, OH, June 28, 2014
Long Range Rifleman New Philly, OH, June 10, 2017
Re-qualified Long Range Rifleman New Philly, OH Nov 11, 2017
Distinguished Rifleman Conneaut, OH, June 3, 2018