Using .22LR Conversion Kits in AR-15s

[Trin Tragula]

Has anyone used a .22LR conversion kit in an AR-15 at an Appleseed shoot?  I have a Bushmaster AR-15 with a Ciener .22LR conversion kit.  It shoots really well (no jams, misfeeds, FTF, etc), but I have to have two different scopes for that rifle (zeroed for each ammo type) because the POI is that much different. 

Just wondering if anyone has found the accuracy reliable enough to use for an Appleseed event.  Would like to save some $$$ on ammo if possible, but will use .223 ammo if needed.

If the .22LR conversion works well enough, how many magazines are recommended?

Thanks much!

[Junior Birdman]

   Conversions work well and have made many a Rifleman.  Bring what you got. Shoot what you brung. JB

[PJEVANS]

I'd use at least 3 magazines. 

Our "hardest" drill is load 2 / reload with 8.

The extra mag will let you have one handy for malfunctions.

[Big-D]

I'd use at least 3 magazines. 

Our "hardest" drill is load 2 / reload with 8.

The extra mag will let you have one handy for malfunctions.

+1

[EEL]

Only problem I've heard of is that if you shoot a lot of lead ammo, as the bullet passes the gas port, it shaves off tiny bits of lead and plugs the gas port.     :(Thus, when you go to shoot .223.....you end up with a single shot rifle.     Unknown just how much lead you would "need" to shoot to plug the hole.  If that happens, the only cure is to remove the front sight and ream it out.  Not something I would want to do routinely as those pins are tapered for secure attachment of the front sight assembly.

I have been considering making up a .22 rim dedicated upper for just that reason and the other reason you mentioned, POA vs. POI changes.  That will take some of the cost savings out of shooting rim initially, but over the long haul I think it will be well worth it.

[bigjohn]

Only problem I've heard of is that if you shoot a lot of lead ammo, as the bullet passes the gas port, it shaves off tiny bits of lead and plugs the gas port.     :(Thus, when you go to shoot .223.....you end up with a single shot rifle.     Unknown just how much lead you would "need" to shoot to plug the hole.  If that happens, the only cure is to remove the front sight and ream it out.  Not something I would want to do routinely as those pins are tapered for secure attachment of the front sight assembly.

I have been considering making up a .22 rim dedicated upper for just that reason and the other reason you mentioned, POA vs. POI changes.  That will take some of the cost savings out of shooting rim initially, but over the long haul I think it will be well worth it.

There are several things that can be done to help flush out any lead particles from the gas tube  after using 22LR adapters- there are long "pipe cleaners" made to clean the inside of the tube , compressed cleaners with the red tubes that fit well inside the gas tube ,compressed air after using solvent or even taking the gas tube off (simple roll pin in the front sight tower) and using pipe cleaner/solvent to scrub the crud out but you will have to decide what you feel comfortable with.

     

[SamD]

They used to issue a long pipe cleaner to get the soda deposits out of AR gas tubes.
They were infamous for getting hung in the tube.

Replaced a lot of tubes because of them.

My experience with teh conversion units is mixed.
the govt issue M261 got too much use with no servicing and didn't hold up well, of course they got a LOT of use.
The one I carried to the field to procure meat worked OK but I doubt if I put more than 200 rounds through it in 8 years.

[EEL]

Problem is.....it's the port in the barrel that gets packed with lead.....NOT the tube itself.  That itty bitty hole at the top of the barrel that matches with that itty bitty hole in your sight base.  And yes SamD is right, that long "pipe cleaner" has probably caused more gas tubes to be replaced than any other reason.

Not saying you MUST have a designated upper...just be advised.  My 2 cents, that's all

[Old Dog]

Never heard of the gas port getting plugged with lead, but anything bad can, and has, happened.

There's been several used at Appleseeds and RBCs (which meant several hundred rounds fired through them). 

I've not shot mine that much between cleaning but when I do use it I shot a shot or two of carb. cleaner down the tube from the upper receiver and watch the stuff run out the flash suppressor (I know carb. cleaner won't dissolve lead, but if the carb. cleaner comes out the port ain't blocked.

I like mine so well (my CAR15 is a tack driver with the conversion kit installed) that I bought a second one for my son.

Some folks report theirs "run" better "wet" with lube while others report theirs runs better fairly dry.

With the cost of .223 (5.56X45) ammo being what it is being able to shoot .22 rimfire ammo makes for lots of cheap training.  The good thing is the safety, sights, mag. release, etc. all works the same (bolt doesn't lock back with some extra parts/work) but that's a minor issue to me.

I'll bet if you get one and don't like it or have issues with it you won't have much problem selling it.  Be prepared for a relatively long wait time as the demand is pretty high for them.

Good luck, which ever way you go.

Oh, my CAR has a barrel twist of 1 turn in 9".  Many folks say that's about as fast as you want for accuracy.

[Trin Tragula]

Thanks all, for the great advice.  Typically, what I do is shoot only copper plated .22 through it when I use the conversion.  That was the recommendation to keep the lead from building up.  Then, I always shoot 2 or 3 rounds of .223 through it when I'm done for the day to blow out the gas tube (another recommendation).

I do use the pipe-cleaners to clean out the gas tube, but have been very carefull no tojam it al the way in.  Have been haiv gmuch success with it so far.

The dedicated upper doesn't sound like a bad idea, though.  That way, I'll have an extra bolt and other parts if needed for the .223 if ever needed in an emergency.

Thanks again.

[cbrant_2000]

Problem is.....it's the port in the barrel that gets packed with lead.....NOT the tube itself.  That itty bitty hole at the top of the barrel that matches with that itty bitty hole in your sight base.  And yes SamD is right, that long "pipe cleaner" has probably caused more gas tubes to be replaced than any other reason.

Not saying you MUST have a designated upper...just be advised.  My 2 cents, that's all

Do you think that leading in the gas port can hold up to, 55,000 PSI after you fire your first .223 back through the barrel?  I have ~2,000 rounds of .22LR through my AR, and have never seen any issue, other then I need to keep it wetter, to keep the ciener kit functioning

[EEL]

News stand issue of Shot Gun News dated Jan 19, 2009 has a small write up on these in the "Ask the Gunsmith" section.  He says no problem running thousands of rounds of .22 rim thru your 223 barrel.  Says he even looked in the bore with a bore scope.  Only glitch was the 1st round fired after the .22 rim was that the gun failed to eject.  The rest went OK.  I'd say, go for it.  Keep offerings in the back of your mind for later reference.

In the same issue, huge write up on Model 1 Sales and nice things to know / get for your AR.

Nice discussion.

EEL

[Trin Tragula]

Found another source for the .22 conversion kit, other than the Ciener kit, and they have them in stock.  Went ahead and ordered one....  I'll compare it to the Ciener and post the results in here.

http://www.jtacsupply.com/spikestacticalar15m1622conversionkit.aspx

[thisismyboomstick]

I barely shot Rifleman at the Dec AS in Davilla with a Ciener kit in my AR. Overall it worked fairly well but I did have a few problems. During the shoot it stopped extracting reliably. If I didn't swab the chamber and feed ramp between each stage and oil it, it wouldn't make it through the stage without a hangup. When I stripped it down afterward I found a broken extractor. It would be nice to have a spare extractor if you can get one ahead of time.

Another thing that will help you out is having good magazines. I used 2 BDM mags with the BHO followers which were problematic for mag changes. The BHO follower prevents the mags from dropping free when you hit the mag release so mag changes become a two handed operation. This isn't ideal when your support hand is slung up. It eats up a lot of time to have to unsling, change mag, resling, then reaquire NPOA. After the shoot I found some of the older non BHO followers at a company called ballistic sounds. They may still have some. I'm not sure if Black Dog still makes them or not so you might want to grab some while you can. I also tried the Ciener 10rnd mag which also didn't drop free. I found with that one, if I used it as the first mag in a stage, I could press the mag release with my right hand and then walk the mag out with my middle finger. While still not the best method it was faster than using both hands.

[zombiehunter]

I have been considering making up a .22 rim dedicated upper for just that reason and the other reason you mentioned, POA vs. POI changes.  That will take some of the cost savings out of shooting rim initially, but over the long haul I think it will be well worth it.

I picked up a Tactical Solutions upper last fall.  It's a dedicated upper for .22s and I chose it over the conversion kits for a few reasons.  First, it has the correct barrel twist for the .22lr round (1:16).  The higher twist rate results in better accuracy at longer distances for the .22lr bullets (compared to heavier .223 bullets).  The higher spin creates more stability on lighter rounds.  Second, the barrel tolerance is correct for the .22lr, versus the .223 barrel that's off by -wait for it- 0.003".  While the difference is small, it's still sloppy and can affect accuracy at distance.  Finally, the dedicated upper chamber is correct for the .22lr ammunition.  The .22lr ammunition is shorter than the .223 ammunition and in a converted .223 upper, the .22lr bullet accelerates a short distance and then slams into the rifling where it begins to spin.  Dedicated uppers are chambered for the .22lr casings. 

Of course, YMMV.  Keep in mind the dedicated uppers are significantly more expensive than a conversion kit and your cost benefit analysis may determine that the less expensive conversion kit is a better option for you.  If that's the case, get the conversion. 

Accuracy of this upper is good enough for Appleseed.  I barely shot rifleman (a measly 210  ) on a 20-round AQT this past weekend. 

There is one important note I was warned about and then subsequently experienced at the range.  There is about a 500 round break in period with the TS uppers - during which FTE, FTFs, and stovepipes are abundant.  But, now that I've got over 1000 round through her, she runs like a dream.  Moral of that story is make sure to function check whatever new toys you get before brining them to an Appleseed, lest you spend the day frustrated with equipment failures. 

At $0.04/rd a dedicated upper will pay for itself in a few thousand rounds.  Plus it's just fun to go out, throw 500 rounds down range, and only have spent $20.

[bedford]

I have both the ceiner kits and a dedicated upper.  I love them all.  I have had quite good accuracy with the A1 barrel 1/12 twist.  With 1/9 and even 1/7 twist I still get 1 inch groups at 25M.  My dedicated upper is from Model 1 sales.  It is a tack driver.

I prefer the 10 round metal mags as they drop free and are shorter.  I don't like the Black dog mags as they interfere with the prone position because they are too long.

The only downside of the .22 conversions is they don't hold the bolt open.  therefore, when I am teaching a new student, I have them use the full power round and only after they are proficient with it do I switch them to the .22.

I use a light coat of grease on the rails and on the spring and spring guide.  I use a very light coat of oil on the other parts. 

[Trin Tragula]

I have both the ceiner kits and a dedicated upper.  I love them all.  I have had quite good accuracy with the A1 barrel 1/12 twist.  With 1/9 and even 1/7 twist I still get 1 inch groups at 25M.  My dedicated upper is from Model 1 sales.  It is a tack driver.

I prefer the 10 round metal mags as they drop free and are shorter.  I don't like the Black dog mags as they interfere with the prone position because they are too long.

The only downside of the .22 conversions is they don't hold the bolt open.  therefore, when I am teaching a new student, I have them use the full power round and only after they are proficient with it do I switch them to the .22.

I use a light coat of grease on the rails and on the spring and spring guide.  I use a very light coat of oil on the other parts. 

I found a good price on a dedicated upper from Model1 (http://www.model1sales.com)  If they have them in stock, I am going to go ahead and order one.

[Snake45]

News stand issue of Shot Gun News dated Jan 19, 2009 has a small write up on these in the "Ask the Gunsmith" section.  He says no problem running thousands of rounds of .22 rim thru your 223 barrel.  Says he even looked in the bore with a bore scope.  Only glitch was the 1st round fired after the .22 rim was that the gun failed to eject.  The rest went OK. 

I've been shooting an M261 in a 1:12 upper for several years now. Ran tests to see if the tube would become plugged at 200 rounds, 300, 400, 500, 800, and 1000. After 1000, I had the same thing happen as in the SGN story: The very first round of .223 short-stroked but the second round and all after ejected just fine. I'm now going for 2000 and see what happens.

FWIW, the GI manual for the M261 says only that the gas tube needs to be cleaned out (by firing .223) after firing several hundred rounds of .22LR tracer ammo (when was the last time you saw any of that?). Not a word about blowing it out after normal .22LR.

I WOULD, however, recommend a pass or two through the bore with a USGI .223 bore brush before switching back to .223, just to clean out any bore leading or other .22 deposits that might raise chamber pressure with .223 ammo. "It couldn't hoit."

BTW, my M261 likes to run very wet with lube, especially on the recoil spring and its guide.

One more thing: DO clean out your .22 chamber every few hundred rounds, or you risk short-chambering. A short-chambered .22LR WILL fire OOB in an AR, which can get nasty--blows out the extractor, wrecks the mag, send brass shrapnel flying about, and so forth. Don't ask me how I know this! 

[SGTCap]

I barely shot Rifleman at the Dec AS in Davilla with a Ciener kit in my AR. Overall it worked fairly well but I did have a few problems. During the shoot it stopped extracting reliably. If I didn't swab the chamber and feed ramp between each stage and oil it, it wouldn't make it through the stage without a hangup. When I stripped it down afterward I found a broken extractor. It would be nice to have a spare extractor if you can get one ahead of time.

Another thing that will help you out is having good magazines. I used 2 BDM mags with the BHO followers which were problematic for mag changes. The BHO follower prevents the mags from dropping free when you hit the mag release so mag changes become a two handed operation. This isn't ideal when your support hand is slung up. It eats up a lot of time to have to unsling, change mag, resling, then reaquire NPOA. After the shoot I found some of the older non BHO followers at a company called ballistic sounds. They may still have some. I'm not sure if Black Dog still makes them or not so you might want to grab some while you can. I also tried the Ciener 10rnd mag which also didn't drop free. I found with that one, if I used it as the first mag in a stage, I could press the mag release with my right hand and then walk the mag out with my middle finger. While still not the best method it was faster than using both hands.

You can fix that BHO problem by simply cutting the tab that holds the bolt open off.  Thats how the BDM were originally designed.  Most of mine came that way, I only have one BHO follower and dont really like it.

As for spare Ceiner parts, its a very good idea.  I have read numerous times though that Ciener has some of the worst customer service in the gn industry and getting replacement parts is damn near impossible.

I have a Spikes dedicated upper and it runs beautifly.  If I was going to get a conversion I would go with them.  I had their earlier dedicated upper that used a modified ceiner and it didnt run very well at all.

[thisismyboomstick]

Replacement Parts:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-extractor.aspx

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-firing-pin.aspx

[Trin Tragula]

Replacement Parts:

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-extractor.aspx

http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-firing-pin.aspx

Thanks for posting.  Just ordered spares of each.

[resdep]

I purchased a Ciener unit last month after trying one that a friend has. He used his in a number of M16/M4 rifles and it worked great. I borrowed it and tried it in a Bushmaster with no problem at all. So I was excited to find one at a good price. I put it in my Bushmaster and gave it a whirl. I got off about 10 rounds and then it fired out of battery. After digging the split case out and knocking the bullet out of my barrel I tried again. Now it wouldn't feed. It also bent the round. I cleaned, lubed, swore and messed with the thing til I gave up. I called the company, they don't take phone calls. I got a message that they screen their calls and if you are having a problem check the "detailed" instructions. There is no email address on their site either. So after more cleaning and lubing I tried some Federal match ammo and it started working. I am hoping this is just a break in issue and I can start using the Remington bulk pack that I use in all of my other 22.

Whoever said Ciener customer service sucks was correct.
Thanks for the heads up on the replacement parts.
resdep

[Old Dog]

I "lap" mine in by:

1.  clean all the oil off the bolt and rails with carb. cleaner
2.  smear the lapping compound on the rails behind the bolt, pull the bolt to the rear, then smear lapping compound on the rails in the front
3.  work the bolt back and forth a hundred times
4.  spray the lapping compound off with carb cleaner
5.  let it dry and spray it with Rem-Oil to get rust protecting lube on the metal surfaces

The finish will be worn off the rails but the bolt will slide back and forth easier.

I'm lubing with 3n1 oil on the new units so far.

The Ceiner I got awhile back seems to have a rough chamber.  I'm thinking I'll lightly "lap" the chamber when I clean it.  I may also eventually do some extractor polishing but I won't do that as long as it keeps working.

I've not seen one fire out of battery yet.  When my bolt doesn't go fully forward the hammer won't hit the firing pin hard enough to set the round off.  When I hear of out of battery fire on a rimfire I wonder if the extractor actually fired the round off rather than slipping over the rim during the chambering process.

Good luck with yours.  It sure does make putting two or three hundred rounds down range in a couple of hours pretty cheap.

[Slugger]

Thanks for everyone's hints. I picked up two Ciener kits from Midway a few months ago. Kit one; I've put approx 400 rnds through. I was just oiling the rails and all worked pretty well. Just shooting minute of soda can at 50' or so. I found out about a local Appleseed a couple days before the event and took my rig to Strat's that Friday night. I had a few fte that night and had purchased some "extra power" recoil springs. Turned out to be a dud. I got sighted in but was experiencing a ton of FTF now.

Anyway, I switched the original recoil spring back kit one after full clean/oil and tested a mag prior to the event. Lubed up kit two and gave it a try with the same type issues. Makes me wonder if I should do any more with the like new one or sell it and buy one from Spikes. I'm guessing the kits that Spikes and CMMG are selling have some bugs worked out. Just a little finish machining that Ciener passed on.

I experienced more and more issues as the day went on. The second to the last shoot we had, a liberty shoot was a circus of issues. I got pretty fair hits on the rounds I did get off but I would guess out of 40 I shot 30 times. The last shoot was 13 rnds and I had a FTF and FTE that tied me up good. Got that cleared just to run back to back into another.

I tell you . . .  I learned some great stuff that day but at the end there if I was to see Jon Ciener walk up the range . . . . he'd have one of his kits sticking half out his right ear! I'd never heard of oiling the spring/plunger but will give it a try as well as lapping everything and finding some spare parts. I will get kit one working sooner or later.

I've got an old 10/22 that I never shoot because the sights kill me. I have to bury my cheek into the comb to get hits on target. Now I find out about the Tech sights and plan to order a set. It will be good to get this old rifle back in business. Then I can start running my three boys through their paces.

Anyhoo, long story too long. I'm glad to have found you all here, have learned a lot already and look forward to learning more. The two older boys just studied the Revolution in home school and now I have stumbled on to this extra unit that I can study and present to them. Great stuff!

Thanks,
Slugger

[Snake45]

Whoever said Ciener customer service sucks was correct.

"Ciener customer service" is a contradiction in terms, like "government efficiency."

[ripersnifle]

TT,

I have a Ciener kit and it runs like a top.
(4) factory 10 rounders and only one of them doesn't drop free.
Use caution if using other than GI type 6-pound trigger components.
~3000 rounds last winter through mine in -20F to +30F degree weather.
Run it almost dry in cold weather.
The lightest possible coat of Militec oil works for mine.
Any more and the oil and powder residue form a gummy sludge.

I lapped mine with JB Bore Paste, a Stone, and Scotch Brite to smooth out any tool marks.
Yes, I intentionally removed the finish on the sliding parts' surfaces.
I run 40 grain ammo at <1050 fps for best accuracy in my 1:9 twist barrel.
Rem Subsonic, Win STD, and CCI STD (favorite and cleanest) print 2-3 MOA.
Aguila 60 grain SSS is VERY accurate, BUT ejects prematurely/inconsistently.
(It's supposed to run well with a 6" barrel and not eject early...All NFA Rules Apply)
It stings and burns my eyes with the excess pressure out the charging handle and ejection port.
It also gums up the chamber more quickly due to the 22Short case length.

Good Luck.

sk

[txpirate]

I got mine last week. It has ran well. The first time out, I ran it pretty dry and there were a couple of issues. It didn't like firing as fast as possible. Last time out, I had it pretty wet with oil and it ran like a top, fast and slow. I haven't truly tested it out for accuracy, but I think it is about 4 MOA with the Winchester 333 pack. I need to try some other ammo to find the best. I have one factory 10rnd mag, and one BDM 27 round mag: both feed reliably but neither drops free. 

[Snake45]

4MOA is about right. If you can consistently do significantly better than 1" at 25 yards--say 5/8" or better--you're doing pretty darn well.

For what it's worth, the most accurate .22 ammo I've tested in .223 barrels (several of them) is Winchester Dynapoints and Remington Golden Bullets. Federal 510 Champions didn't shoot well at all in them.

[thisismyboomstick]

I've not seen one fire out of battery yet.  When my bolt doesn't go fully forward the hammer won't hit the firing pin hard enough to set the round off.  When I hear of out of battery fire on a rimfire I wonder if the extractor actually fired the round off rather than slipping over the rim during the chambering process.

Dang it Old Dog, you must have put a curse on me or something by saying that!



I went to the range yesterday to test out the new BDM extractor. Previously I had mainly used Fed bulk pack from WM and had no feed issues just extraction issues. (chipped extractor) This time I was using Rem Golden Bullet and it was having problems feeding. It would pick up the next round but wouldn't fully chamber it. The bolt would stop with 1/4" to 3/8" of the case out of battery. It looks like this round was only abut 3/16" from being fully chambered. The extractor definitely didn't set it off. I distinctly remember pulling the trigger and then a bunch of smoke flew out of the ejection port. I pulled the case out and then the conversion kit. Checked the bore and it was blocked. When I got home I knocked the bullet out pretty easily. It only made it about and inch down the barrel.

Guess there's a first time for everything.

[Old Dog]

I cleaned both of mine this weekend (Ceiner and CMMG) and both are showing that the hammer is beating up the bottom back side of the bolt under the firing pin when we were having problems with the right side mag. lip dragging the bottom of the bolt and slowing it down.  You can see finish is gone and the metal itself is displacing from the repeated hammer strikes when the bolt wasn't fully forward.  Hopefully I've fixed it now and won't have to take a file to the back of the bolt to remove the burrs that are starting to form.

Glad everything is okay with yours.  Looks like someone standing to the right might have been hit with brass pieces or powder if they'd been standing there when it went off.