Trigger Finger Placement/Thoughts....What do you do?

[navybowhunter]

This is regarding trigger finger placement on the trigger blade.

Prior to AS, I was taught to never drag wood/aluminum and to place my trigger finger, first digit bent at a 90 degree and place the blade on the first digit at the bottom of my fingernail.

It worked....even worked for 25M AQT and KD.

I have a post here on "Grip" and that is when things started to change.

Will use the AR15 as an example here...but I assure you, every rifle I shoot be it an M1 Garand, 03A3 Springfield, .22 Rimfire it is all the same....but a little different cause of the grip.

AR15's come standard with an A2 grip.  It has that "NUB" for finger placement.  It is OK....but it does invite a bad trigger finger placement.  There are plenty of aftermarket grips for AR's that do not have that nub, that are angled different to allow for a HIGH grip.  Unfortunately, those are not allowed in NRA or CMP HP competitions.

A couple High Master shooters recommended I put all my fingers above the nub, with the exception of my pinkie.  So....pinkie finger is below the nub.  This allows for a HIGH grip placement but feels very awkward.  It does work though.

Digression for a sec:  When I say something works....that means I am hitting the X or 10 ring on the target.  It does not mean it is comfortable....

OK....

One particular shooter shared one of the secrets with me. Use an A1 Grip.  A1 grips do not have the nub, and are by design a little bit wider.

I like the A1's a LOT.....they work (10's and X's).

What happens when we get a high grip and grip it like we stole it?  What happens to the trigger finger.  It is NEARLY impossible to repeatedly measure trigger finger placement on the first digit with a 90 degree bend.  It is also not comfy.

I found that if I let my trigger finger naturally lie where it wants to, somewhat comfortably with a high grip, it is not a perfect 90 degree bend.  I am now breaking the trigger in the crease of the second digit of my trigger finger.  It is a place I can repeatedly find, and it works (10's and X's).

So....I am on the phone with Rob Mango (you can google him) and I mention that when I grip like he suggested and let my trigger finger lie naturally where it wants to....I am "DRAGGING WOOD/Aluminum"....

Guess what he said? 

SO WHAT!  So what, what happens on the target?  Are you breaking the trigger without disturbing SIGHT ALIGNMENT?

Hmmmm....AM I BREAKING THE TRIGGER WITHOUT DISTURBING SIGHT ALIGNMENT?!

That is really all that matters. 

My point is....who cares if one is dragging wood if the results are 10's and X's on the target?  Or V's and 5's in our case with Appleseed?

Totally contrary to what we teach about trigger squeeze. 

Seriously, if one is not disturbing sight alignment, who cares.

I had a tough time with that, till I was able to practically apply what was told/taught to me a week or so ago at the Eastern Games.

So I am interested in what you all think about this, and what you do?

Many times I have witnessed instructors on the line (I am guilty as well...heck we are all still learning I hope), telling shooters during a string of fire "Hold the trigger back" or "Your dragging wood" etc etc.

Maybe take a look at the target before applying that correction, cause all that really matter are X's and 10's or V's and 5's.  The means of how one achieves the 10's and X's.....hmmmm, I would be interested in what that person is doing.

I was told it is the same/similar with the pistol.  Likely even more critical.  I am a NOOB to the pistol stuff though. 

R/
Chris

[jmdavis]

Mango is a genius. And he gave you one of the most important pieces of information to help you shoot better. I've heard it before from other Distinguished and National Champion shooters. I've heard it from the AMU. I've heard it from Marines and Navy Shooters.

In four years of working with almost 1000 Appleseeders, I never once told one he or she was "dragging wood." The reason is that we care more about what is happening at the muzzle and on the target than exact finger placement. Good trigger control is important, but how one gets that good trigger control is far less important than getting it. I always checked the results before I made a correction unless the problem, and poor results were obvious.

At an early Appleseed that I was shooting, one of the IIT's yelled that I was dragging wood. VAShooter was running the event he he told him, "Of course he's dragging wood, look at those fat little fingers." The results are what matters and as you have discovered there are many ways to good results.

High and tight helps a lot in standing and the rapids. It's not bad in slow prone, but it's also not necessary for everyone. Look at the results, and then correct, not the other way around.

I believe that steady, even, uninterrupted trigger squeeze is vastly more important than placing the first crease (or any other specific area) of the finger on the trigger.

[navybowhunter]

Right on Mike!

Lastly, if anyone is interested in obtaining an A1 grip they can be found at Fulton Armory.

I ordered 2, and will be getting one more for my Modern Mil.

They came in all dirtied up, these are used grips, but of course they still work.

I did hear from another shooter than a certain lower parts kit manufacturer offers the option of an A1 grip.  I forget what company that was.

R/
Chris

[Kennebago]

I do not think it matters much with rifles at all, personally. It makes intuitive sense, since the rifle outweighs the trigger pretty handily (or should) and when slung is stable to the point where screwing up trigger press hard enough to disturb sight picture should be darn difficult. Jerking, big problem. Dragging wood or pushing/pulling the trigger, the rifle and sling will probably cover it up.

Much bigger deal with handguns, and even there Travis Haley sums up trigger management pretty well I think - how you press the trigger before break is largely irrelevant as long as you "finish flat".

Watching Travis Tomasie shoot his Limited rig in slo-mo really drives that point home.

[maxwell]

IIRC the instructor manual says not to correct "dragging wood" unless it's indicated on the target, even though we still teach it. I quit correcting it almost entirely, but it's an easy gotcha thing for IITs. I'm still conflicted about grip tightness, based on results I see on my own targets; it's easy for me to clench it and induce movement.

Thanks for the A1 grip idea you posted a while back, Chris. I picked up a couple from fleabay, and they're more comfortable for me. I think my wife wants her A2 grip back, though.

[Matt8531]

There are no imperatives when firing a rifle except for correct sight alignment/picture (assuming correct zero) and breaking the shot without disturbing said sight alignment in relation to the target. The rifle doesn't care if you can accomplish those tasks with perfect fundamentals, or upside-down on your head.

I've always allowed the shooter's outcome to dictate the coaching applied. That said, a standard, off the rack, M16A2 typically  has an 8+Lb pull with a generous amount of grit and creep. Try curling an 8lb dumbbell with just your index finger vs. your pinky and ring fingers... A high pistol grip with the trigger finger laying naturally on the trigger allow the shooter tos recruit strength from other muscle groups while mitigating firing hand influence on the rifle. In contrast, if I apply that same technique to a Geissele match trigger with a sub-5lb pull, I will likely induce major movement compared to  using justthe tip of my trigger finger.

More recently I've started shooting 10/22s where the spotter stock is far different than a pistol grip AR. I've found "dragging wood" has induced undesirable movement in the rifle. Thumb alon side of stock, while conscious awareness of trigger squeeze/press has improved groups with that gun.

[VAshooter]

There are no imperatives when firing a rifle except for correct sight alignment/picture (assuming correct zero) and breaking the shot without disturbing said sight alignment in relation to the target. The rifle doesn't care if you can accomplish those tasks with perfect fundamentals, or upside-down on your head.

That is the single most important rule when shooting a rifle.
All the other stuff is just guidance to help you get started and make shooting easier to do. "It's really hard to shoot well while upside down on your head" The steps of shooting will make it all make more sense but won't mean a thing if you can't relax into position and focus on sight alignment while applying pressure to the trigger.