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Fenton, Mi Apr 22-23 2017 AAR.

Started by Caliper, April 25, 2017, 12:06:05 AM

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Caliper

So, the sights and sounds of Project Appleseed have returned to the Fenton Lakes Sportsmans Club for 2017!
We had a great turnout thanks to consolidating two events on the east side, and student took advantage of Fenton allowing Centerfire with multiple M1's and AR's on the line before the end of the weekend!
Maybe the great venue inspired the students, or maybe it was just the great weather, but two new Riflemen were made and another reconfirmed.
Pics to follow soon...

lurgid

First time student and wanted to let you know how awesome of a time I had learning from all of you. Seeing as Saturday was only the 2nd time I had ever fired a rifle, the instruction was absolutely invaluable. I was ecstatic to be able to get 3 on a 400 yd redcoat with 40 year old eyes and iron sights, barely seeing a red blob on the paper. I can't wait to meet up with you guys again.

D.O.M.

Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

D.O.M.

Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

D.O.M.

#4




Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

D.O.M.

Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

D.O.M.

Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

DrThunder88

What a great weekend for another great event!  I think everyone should be grateful that the rain seemed to be localized to my vicinity upon receiving my patch.

I was disappointed that I didn't even touch my first Rifleman score from three years ago.  I am evidently out of practice, and that gives me an excuse to attend more events.  I was pleased to see so many more shooters using iron sights and am happy to know I wasn't the only fool rocking a bolt action this time!

My girlfriend, sister, and brother-in-law all came out to shoot as well, and we had a fantastic time.  They had so many nice things to say about the instructors, but really the proof of the pudding was in their shooting.  From the first AQT to the last, I know one shooter in our group saw their score increase more than 30 points!

You should really be more careful where you leave your hats, MrSurplus!  Congrats!

Thanks to everyone who made it happen!

D.O.M.

Wow! What a great event!
Fenton is my favorite range. Centerfire capable, lots of space, close enough to lots of potential attendees... Just great.

We had an enthusiastic group of students. Thank you for spending your weekend with us and for bringing friends!

Rick D.O.M. Gull
KD8AQT
Can't we all just agree to disagree in a civil fashion while the planet's last, fading hope of liberty and prosperity gets snuffed out?

No. We can't.

de KD8AQT 73

Caliper

D.O.M., thanks for getting all those great photos of the dashing fellow in the Green hat!  ;D


Various pics of the line:

















Check this out! Applying the Fundamentals of Marksmanship reduces group sizes!





Grindstone telling 2nd Strike





MrSurplus teaching standing position





D.O.M. in the middle of Third Strike


Caliper

#10
Take one long last look at that orange hat out there. All alone... 





With as many rounds as you'd like, Load! ...  Fire! 

http://vid1312.photobucket.com/albums/t539/Caliper_RWVA/170422-23_Fenton/20170423_093812_zpsfzvdwnwj.mp4



Alas, it served its purpose well... 





The hat has left its essence imprinted in this backer board.


T. WOLF

Thank you Appleseed crew, for putting on another great event. It was nice to rejoin you on the firing line - regardless of what color your hat is (congrats, Mr. Surplus!), I am continuously impressed by the quality of character on display at Appleseed events from the shoot boss down to the students.

It was great meeting a few new hats who I didn't already know from Lapeer: D.O.M. Your history-telling ability is bar-none the most engaging I've witnessed at an Appleseed yet. Your wisdom was a welcomed addition to the firing line as well. And Flyboy - thank you for letting me take a turn with your M1, even though I slowed down your ball and dummy drill. That was my first time pulling the trigger on a Garand (or loading one, obviously) and it was a great experience. I'd like to learn more about your CERT experience too - I've been wanting to go after my FCC license for awhile now, but I can never seem to find people in my circle to engage with. And Grindstone - I appreciated the personal attention you gave me on the line, especially when I was really struggling to hold my composure on Sunday afternoon. My standing position really needs a lot of work. Plus, your technical explanation of battle sight zero was the highlight of my tutelage last weekend. Your skills on the dry-erase board rival Superheat's.

On a personal level, I left Fenton really disappointed in myself. I had high hopes for earning my Rifleman's patch this weekend, but I just couldn't pull it together. After four Appleseeds, I'm starting to feel discouraged that I can't break 210.  I shot 206 on Saturday's AQT, and it was all downhill from there on Sunday. After shooting 209 in Lapeer, I thought my patch was a sure thing, and yet I constantly struggled to find and keep my NPOA. Nothing felt consistent. I won't blame it on the asphalt grading at the Fenton range, but it didn't do my body any favors. Camping overnight for these events isn't doing my body any favors either. I just couldn't seem to set my elbows in the same spot twice. In hindsight, it was an unexpected learning opportunity to shoot on a new range, but after having done so, I can clearly say that I prefer the club in Lapeer.

I'm skirting the issue though. I am grappling with my NPOA every time I take a position. I've listened carefully to all the instruction I've received over the past events, and it all makes sense. When I do manage to 'find' my NPOA and shoot a tight group on center target, it's clear as day, but it feels like I found my NPOA by pure luck, and I can't memorize the position. Then I have to shift positions and start the entire 'search' over again. Is it the consistency of NPOA that eludes me, or the concept? I'm starting to question whether or not forcing ones support elbow directly underneath the rifle is the correct NPOA for every shooter. I have very long arms, and a tall narrow skeleton. I have to nearly rip my support elbow all the way underneath my trigger side just to keep the rifle on target. It's painful and distracting. Is there a point where the 'Natural' part of NPOA trumps the 'rules' of acquiring it?  I'm starting to feel like there is a balance to be found somewhere between the fundamental Appleseed concepts and the natural way my own particular body wishes to rest its bones while I'm holding a rifle.

The target should answer that question for itself. And so, I'll take some time to myself to get more comfortable with my rifle - taking what I've learned at these Appleseeds and adjusting my physical positions, both at home and on the range, until I discover my NPOA and can drop into it naturally without hesitation. Once I've found my NPOA, I will return to Appleseed to shoot some AQT's, and share what I've learned about myself.

Thank you all for your dedication and effort - I really do appreciate it.

Travis
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leaders, and concerting measures in opposition to each other." ~John Adams 1780

smoothbore

I have been several times before and I plan on going many more!!!! I thoroughly enjoy Appleseed Weekends. Learning to be a better marksman is always part of my plan, but listening to the history is also right up there. One of the benefits of being old is,,,,,,, hearing the history each time, is like hearing for the first time  :)

Before I attended my first Appleseed, I could have practice rifle marksmanship every day and I would not have gotten any better. I would have simply been practicing incorrectly and improving my bad habits. I got my first BB gun at 8 and my first .22 at 10. I was a junior NRA shooter at around 12, so I'm not new to shooting, but I never learn the correct process. For sure I never learned the process like I learned from the Appleseed Teachers. The teachers are "Outstanding". The teachers make the weekend. They are all "in it" and it shows!!!!!!

I mostly shoot shotgun, because I was taught how and that helps with shooting well and that helps with enjoy it and that helps with having fun. Now I have been and I continue to be taught how to shoot a rifle, rifle shooting has become fun. Again, thanks to the dedication of the teachers.

Congrats to Mr. Surplus for moving into a Red Hat.

A sincere thank you,
Smoothbore (Dennis)

mrsurplus

This was a thoroughly enjoyable weekend with shooters who listened to what they were being told and really tried to apply everything they learned on each an every course of fire. I am still not sure if I should be proud of, or horrified by, the number of rounds the line sent downrange at my hat but I thank you all for giving it it's proper send off.

T. Wolf do not be discouraged by your performance. Speaking from experience it will all come together and the score will be there (I also suggest using Superheat's Rifleman maker 10/22 if it is available at your next shoot). It took me a long time to stop focusing on the patch, and to start focusing on step 4 of the six steps. That was the key for me, you will find the key that will open the Rifleman door for you as well. You are too good of a shooter to not be there soon.

It was also nice to hear the sweet "PING" of liberty coming from all the Garands on the line.

It was a pleasure to accept my Red Hat in front of this group.

I look forward to seeing you all again on the line soon.

MrSurplus
" There is a certain enthusiasm in liberty, that makes human nature rise above itself, in acts of bravery and heroism"
- Alexander Hamilton
" The key to life is how you deal with plan B" - Stephan Dias

d2331

Lots of nice center fire rifles on the line!

T. WOLF, don't get discouraged.  I thought I'd get my patch my first event and I didn't.  Shortly after that event I took some taped up AQT's and a kitchen timer to the range and shot a rifleman score the first time I tried.  Went back a few months later even more confident and didn't do worth a squat.  Went home and shot more rifleman scores again!  And this same pattern happened a third time. :wb:  I was getting annoyed so I took a break.  Some time went by, I went back and finally got my patch.

In my experience I just had to relax and stop trying so hard.  I can be very competitive with myself and that didn't help.  Just go for the fun of it and not focusing solely on the patch.  Also helpful was leaning how to not worry about the time factor and just do my thing at my pace. 

If you are struggling with NPOA some dry fire will be helpful.  And when you find it, lay there for a minute to allow your body to feel the position.  It was helpful for me.  I'm fairly flexible and can get my support arm all the way under my 10/22 with out discomfort but when I shoot it's not directly under but off to the side a bit.  My sights still go straight up and down when I breathe.  You know your body better than anyone else.  If it hurts, then it's not a natural position for your body.  If your not comfortable then your focus is going to be on the pain and not the shooting.  I'm thinking you've been at this long enough that it's not simply a matter of stretching you muscles out.  I'd try bringing the support arm as close to vertical that is still comfortable for you.  Everyone is different and just because it's the "official" way doesn't make it the best way for you.  In the standing position we teach to plant the front foot and more the back foot.  I do just the opposite as it works better for me.

Hang in there and you'll get the patch.  Speaking from experience, it makes getting it even better!

Grindstone

T. Wolf, At you next event, ask one of the instructors to work with you using a laser equipped dummy rifle. This is a useful tool to see where the rifle is pointing and how it moves for every change in your position.

You could also make one yourself with an old stock, a laser pointer and a zip tie. Use the zip tie to old the laser down, and when you want to turn it on, rotate the laser so the button is held down by the zip tie.

When you are adjusting your position to move NPOA, imagine someone else is looking through your sights and talking you onto the target. Instead of telling you to go left or right a certain number of inches on the target, they are coaching you how far to scoot your hips left or right. Your job during this is only to hold a bone supported position (not trying to muscle the rifle anywhere that it doesn't want to point).

Another thing to try is sitting out a coarse of fire and observing the other shooters. To watch others doing an exercise will help you see it from a perspective outside of your own sight picture. Maybe you will also spot something you have been missing. There is nothing wrong with being fresh for an AQT by skipping the squares of death drill if you have already done that exercise a number of times. Other interesting ones to see for the good and the bad are the first few squares on Saturday, or the first time we try seated position.

T. WOLF

Thanks for the advice, everyone - much appreciated! Hope to see you on the firing line next time.
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leaders, and concerting measures in opposition to each other." ~John Adams 1780

d2331

Quote from: Grindstone on May 01, 2017, 12:23:24 AM
There is nothing wrong with being fresh for an AQT by skipping the squares of death drill if you have already done that exercise a number of times.

That's a good point.  Fatigue can get you too.  I got my patch on the first AQT on Sunday.  By the time you get to an AQT on Saturday, my best is behind me.  That Sunday morning I cleared the redcoat target, fired the first square, and then sat out until the AQT's started.  Used that time to go to the restroom.  Shot back to back rifleman scores then it started to go downhill again but I didn't care then as I was having fun.

Hang in there, you'll get the patch!

T. WOLF

QuoteT. Wolf, At you next event, ask one of the instructors to work with you using a laser equipped dummy rifle. This is a useful tool to see where the rifle is pointing and how it moves for every change in your position

I would like to volunteer to get prone with the laser dummy in front of the entire class. I think it might benefit everyone to see just how turbulent that dot can get when you aren't comfortably settled in your NPOA.  The laser dummy tends to be handed to an experienced orange hat who already has their NPOA nailed down, just so that they can give a nice clean demonstration of the up-down drift that occurs while breathing.  I'd like to lay down with that laser dummy like I handle any rifle, and get poked and prodded and scoot all around until the entire class sees what it takes to find your NPOA. Show them what the laser looks like when you're still using your muscles. It's a great teaching tool.
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leaders, and concerting measures in opposition to each other." ~John Adams 1780

T. WOLF

Speaking of the laser as a teaching tool... What about using a bore-sight laser on a 10/22 for practicing at home?  I have roughly 20 yards of distance end-to-end in my basement. Does it make sense to shine a laser from my barrel and drill, drill, drill, drill?  It's the next best thing to putting a live round down range, right?  I have a laser that mounts to the end of the barrel.. I can do full dry-fire exercises with the action, shifting NPOA between 'rounds', etc.  If someone has a better method for training at home, let me know.
"There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leaders, and concerting measures in opposition to each other." ~John Adams 1780

DrThunder88

If you're behind the rifle, your sights will show you where the barrel is pointing.  The laser is an excellent choice for demonstrating the effect for an audience.

SteelThunder

Quote from: DrThunder88 on May 20, 2017, 04:01:03 AM
If you're behind the rifle, your sights will show you where the barrel is pointing.  The laser is an excellent choice for demonstrating the effect for an audience.

I'll push back on your statement just a little bit...

The laser is not only a great demonstration tool, it is an essential tool for the shooter to see what their position and NPOA are actually doing.  I typically bring 5-6 laser rifles and try to get all students on the laser rifle in the shoots I run.  Here's why:

+ Most shooters, especially those new to the concept of NPOA, "lie". 
+ By that I mean that we're so used to using our arm muscles to move the sights onto the target that as soon as a shooters brain recognizes that the sights aren't on the target, it instantaneously shoots a signal to the arm muscles to move the rifle.
+ We're so used to doing it, that we don't even perceive it happen. 
+ The net result is that you really don't have your NPOA...your brain in lying to you by shoving the sights quickly onto the target...thus you are implicated in the lie when you assume you have your NPOA.
+ This of course is tongue in cheek---no one is intentionally lying.  But the net result is that we aren't doing what we think we're doing. 

The laser doesn't allow this.  In demo mode, someone will cover your eyes and ask you to relax.  It will be very obvious where your NPOA is.  Likewise when you do it for yourself, the laser makes it MUCH more noticeable where you're actually pointing the rifle.

Once you get the "feel" of what getting your NPOA is, then I agree with you...the sights are good enough.  Until then...LASER, LASER, LASER, LASER
NRA Patron Member, SAF Life Member
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor, RSO
Warlord of the West

Ultima vox civis
"Learning occurs only after repetitive, demoralizing failures." - Pat Rogers
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