Author Topic: Timed fire or just fire  (Read 350 times)

Offline pocahontaspatriot

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Timed fire or just fire
« on: March 20, 2017, 01:15:26 AM »
Brought the family to a (.22 rimfire only)  Appleseed shoot in Virginia last Summer.  Very glad I did.  The history, even though I was pretty familiar with it, choked me up.  The instruction was clear, patient, expert.

Good show!

A question simmering since then  in the back of my mind seems perhaps legitimate after reading the recent thread about Appleseed's early history and the "shoot what you brought" philosophy.

We scoured the farm (and a couple of pawnshops) to outfit the whole clan, brought my favorite Winchester 67, a Remington Nylon 66, a Mossberg 715, and a few others,  both bolt and semiauto, that I disremember.  We had malfunctions, found the 67 too slow to operate, were most generously loaned a couple of match-grade Ruger 10-22s...and even THEY jammed up repeatedly on that scorching weekend.

We left having had a great time, having had vital history given new life and relevance, but with indifferent scores, mostly (so it seemed) due to inability to complete the course of fire within the prescribed time-limit.

I quite understand that the course of fire and the time limits used are an accepted standard, and using accepted standards enables real comparisons.....also that in many or most actual conflicts time and rate-of-fire are of the essence.

So, here is the question I offer for discussion:  Should I take home the stark lesson that I need an AK-47 or AR-15 to be a real competitor in "circumstances that may arise", or should there be a place for training with "whatever is leaning against the wall in the barn"?


Online Nashville Stage

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 01:29:00 AM »
I'm glad that you all came to an event & enjoyed yourselves (for the most part), and am sorry that you seemed to be plagued with mechanical issues during the weekend.

Could you clarify your question? I'm a little unsure what you're asking.

Offline SteelThunder

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 08:51:47 AM »
We left having had a great time, having had vital history given new life and relevance, but with indifferent scores, mostly (so it seemed) due to inability to complete the course of fire within the prescribed time-limit.

I quite understand that the course of fire and the time limits used are an accepted standard, and using accepted standards enables real comparisons.....also that in many or most actual conflicts time and rate-of-fire are of the essence.

So, here is the question I offer for discussion:  Should I take home the stark lesson that I need an AK-47 or AR-15 to be a real competitor in "circumstances that may arise", or should there be a place for training with "whatever is leaning against the wall in the barn"?

My 1/50th of a dollar...

1) Thrilled that you had your family there.  And I'm glad you had a great time and that the history was meaningful.  That's what we're really there to teach.

2) Don't sweat it that your scores were "indifferent".  If it was easy, anyone could do it...and it isn't easy.

3) Should you buy a centerfire as the only way to be "competitive"?  Well, most certainly we encourage you to buy a centerfire...Appleseed was founded in order to return American to being a nation of Riflemen...to own a centerfire and be skilled in the application of it out to 500 m.

4) Our instruction is exactly what you describe...instruction with "whatever is leaning against the wall in the barn"?  An important thing to note:  Appleseed is NOT about equipment.  It is about "software".  The time limits are merely testing your own progress mentally and skillset-wise toward reaching the goal of being proficient with whatever you are using.  Remember, the score is not a destination, but merely a marker that helps you gauge your own development.

Personally, I would recommend that Appleseed is about what you want out of it and what you're willing to put in it.  Should you ditch that single shot Win 67?  I wouldn't until you've wrung everything out of it you can.  If you're getting 5 or 6 "5's" in the time limit then I'd move on to a semi auto...if you're still shooting 3s and 4s, then work on it a while.

I've had plenty of students show up with bolt guns and immediately assume they need a semi auto...but five 5's is better than three misses-four 3's-two 4s-one 5 any day.

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Offline Charles McKinley

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 08:03:30 PM »
Appleseed is not a gear race.

With enough practice score can and has been shot with a single shot cricket that has to be cocked with each shot too.

With that said, only you can decide what is best for you and your family.

I would rather have a 30-30 I knew well and a stock of its favorite ammo than the latest 338 Lapua, with only one magazine and that I can't afford to shoot regularly.

If you start down the path of acquiring other firearms  please look at them as a system: firearm, magazines, ammunition, accessories.

If you can't get or afford any part of the system you have a poorly designed rock or club.
  For me I have:
Ruger rimfire rifles -10/22 and bolts, they work, Mags are comparatively inexpensive and available.

Mil-spec AR -mags and ammo are cheaper and everywhere,for now.

9mm or 45 acp hand gun pick one, Glock is my flavor of choice for the above reasons, there are other good choices as well

Try to keep your family or group with the same platform to make sharing be it at an Appleseed or crisis easier.

In closing: Be cautious with someone who only has one gun, thy probably know ow to use it.

Welcome to the family, learn, enjoy, TEACH!
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

Offline Rocket Man

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 01:56:07 AM »
Just to add a random opinion...

I've shot AQTs with eight different firearms.  My high score is with the centerfire I've owned the longest -- a hunting rifle in .270 Win. 

It just fits me.   O0

Training is what you want to make of it.  But at the end of the day, it's the Rifleman, not the rifle.
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

Offline Square-Eye

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 12:29:05 PM »
I posted this response on another string, but found it prudent to inject here also.......
------------------------
I may not be the sharpest tack in the box, but I kinda believe in my heart that our main mission is to build Marksmen, teach Marksmanship, and get people thinking and rekindle the fire regarding our history / heritage and ignite some flames to get people involved.  We are not selling 10/22s......or any other equipment.

I have helped shooters drastically improve their marksmanship skills and shoot rifleman level scores with Model 60s (factory sights), with open sighted bolt guns, with ARs, with high end scoped 22s, with low end scoped 22s, Have even shown non-believers that you can shoot qualification scores with factory sighted 10/22s.

It is about teaching and learning the fundamentals regarding building your position / NPOA / breathing / sight alignment & sight picture / squeezing the trigger / shooting the rifle (where were the sights when the rifle went "bang") / and resetting your trigger and position for the next shot (follow-through).

It is NOT about equipment. 

Now, some minor equipment upgrades can make the journey a bit easier, but are not necessary.  I am a big fan of just "run-what-you-brung".  We need to be able to teach and instruct based on the equipment / rifles people have on hand.

Now, I know that we run into rifles that are filthy and have been neglected.  We also run into incorrectly mounted optics, no sling swivels, etc.  I have seen some miracles get worked by instructors regarding equipment and that is kind of enlightening......and also a bit entertaining.

My mission is not to shoot a perfect 250, or build riflemen that shoot 235+.  My mission is to teach marksmanship to as many as efficiently and as effectively as possible.  That goes for teaching at an appleseed event, a 4H club, a family event, youth clinics, conservation office shooting clinics, etc.

You have to be committed to build marksmen and have to be able to teach marksmanship........regardless of the equipment used. 

Does a tricked out rifle help one shoot better?  I say no.  It allows poor marksmanship skills to go uncorrected and does not improve you actual marksmanship ability.  Does it make you feel better to shoot a little knot on the slowfire stages from a scoped /  tricked out 10/22?  It can stroke ones ego.  Does it help you clean the sitting stage?  Does it help if your NPOA shifts on a reload?

Train your marksmanship skill and not just practice your AQTs.  (There is a fundamental difference between training and practice.)

Once you have trained and mastered the fundamentals, then move out and share the wisdom gained.  Start to train with the sitting target and shoot it standing, train the rapid fire target for your sitting, train the slow fire target for your rapid stage, and use Morgan's shingle for your slow fire stage. 

Look at AAR pictures from any event and you will see shooters in the prone position with their leg cocked and on their toes with the other foot.  That non-firing leg must be either turned in or turned out......not on your toe.  You will never shoot 97+ during a 300 yard rapid stage or shoot 190+ at 600 yard on your toes.  But, you CAN shoot a rifleman score with that uncorrected error in your prone position. 

Teach people to shoot the rifles they have in the closet at home, and the one they bring to the range.......Appleseed is NOT about equipment.

Fundamentals start with building your position and NPOA.........then the other steps will follow.

Remember that the rifle is just a tool.  The person behind it can also be a tool......or a weapon......the difference is in their level of training.

If you want to spend money on equipment, invest in a rifle that will allow you to cross over into CMP events (Rimfire Sporter, Service Rifle, Vintage, etc).  Otherwise, bring what you have available and I (we) will tweak on your equipment and on the shooter.  We will build you into a better and more competent marksman!!

Keep in mind, that rifle should never go off and be a surprise.  It goes off when I tell it to.......it goes off when my position is solid, my NPOA is solid, my sights are aligned and in the middle of the target (aim small), and I squeeze the trigger.  I tell it when to go off, because I am in control of the rifle!

"A Rifleman becomes as knowledgeable of his rifle and gear as he is of his enemy. He grows proficient with the tools provided and is constantly striving to improve. He grasps the knowledge that the path to true perfection has no end, but always, is the most honorable journey."  ---- a portion of  ---- An Ode to a Rifleman

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." —Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle


Hope to see you on the range, and Keep 'em in the middle!!

Have a Great American Day!!

Square-Eye

Nebraska State Marksmanship Coordinator & Coach (Army & Air Guard)
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Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 09:16:29 AM »
I was an instructor at that Lynchburg Appleseed and it was both a pleasure and an inspiration to see you and your family learn the marksmanship, history and citizenship lessons that weekend.

"Run what you brung" is a fine concept, as we have to become expert with the arms we have. Unlike formal competitive events, in which having certain gear is important, Appleseed is about becoming like those early Americans who used their own resources to defend their freedom. This important point bears repeating: The marksmanship part of Appleseed isn't about getting a patch, it's about becoming an expert with your rifle.

Part of that expertise is maintaining our rifles in perfect working condition so that we can trust them to be reliable and accurate. I think we all learned some lessons that day. Preparing your rifle for the intense workout it will get during an Appleseed weekend is critical to your success.

Do you need an AK or an AR? Not specifically for Appleseed. In fact, the AK is generally so inaccurate that I wouldn't use one for the kind of shooting we do. AR15s are some of the most popular rifles in the country for several reasons, including their excellent performance on varmints such as coyotes (a bane of farmers in my region), feral hogs, and for home and self-defense. In many states, the AR is too small a caliber for legal use on large game such as deer and bear. And now that the panic is over, prices are quite reasonable - you can get a mainstream AR such as S&W or Ruger for under $700, sometimes under $600. In the context of the 1770s, most Americans had state-of-the-art firearms. Of course, the art hadn't changed much since the 1750s, so "vintage" guns from the French and Indian War were still modern.

Finally, which is the best rifle to bring for Appleseed? I'd say that depends on your expertise and experience with rifles. Most of the beginners I encounter do best with .22LR rifles, which allow learning the skills of expert marksmanship without the distraction and complication of heavy recoil and noise. Once that level of skill is attained, it is easy to transfer it to centerfire rifles of any size.
Author of "The 10/22 Companion: How to Operate, Troubleshoot, Maintain and Improve Your Ruger 10/22"
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Offline Cold Warrior

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 11:50:07 AM »
To PocohantasPatriot and other new shooters. At an Appleseed event you will learn many things about rifle marksmanship!
I respectfully submit, gear issues can set you back.
Please see How to Prepare at: https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/
On the right side of that page, is some text in a grey box that says "Rifle Specific Preparations", and the very first line has links to setting up and Appleseed Liberty Training Rifle (LTR). 
I can't stress the importance of three additional things:
1) Upgrading your rifle with Tech sights, or some adjustable rear-aperture styles sights, or a scope if you're getting a little older, like myself, and are having sight issues.
2) The cleanliness of your rifle.
3) Good, quality ammunition. If you show up with big cheap box of ammo (like Thunderbolt) you will have many malfunctions. Shoot your rifle ahead of time and see what works well with it. I myself only use CCI standard velocity or CCI AR for .22LR matches.
I hope you bring the family back to many more Appleseeds, Heck, someday you mat even be one of our instructors sharing this same wisdom with others!
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Offline Dracomeister

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Re: Timed fire or just fire
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 12:41:18 PM »
I have to agree with Cold Warrior. I shot my 1st Appleseed with a 10-22 that I'd had since the early 80's. It was my small game rifle, my plinking toy, and a well worn old friend that I had shot many thousands of times. I shot a Rifleman score with it not because of the rifle but because I was completely familiar with it. I knew it's POI, trigger feel, and what ammo it liked best (CCI AR Tactical).

As far as "timed fire vs just fire", I believe the point of Appleseed is more about self improvement than anything else. The old Army recruiting ad "Be all that you can be!" has real meaning in the Appleseed world. By imposing time limits and goals on yourself you will get better faster.

Welcome aboard and I look forward to attending a future Appleseed with you and your family.
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