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Good enough?

Started by jmdavis, January 11, 2016, 03:24:33 PM

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jmdavis

I earned my Rifleman's badge in September of 2008 at mini-Appleseed run by VAShooter and attended by the then VA Instructor corps and me. In the years since, I have repeated the process a number of times, with AR's and M1's at 25m and at KD.

When I first started to attend Appleseeds, I had back issues that kept me from shooting sitting. I became pretty darn good at shooting kneeling and could generally expect to earn 45 points in that stage. Fast forward a few years and I began to shoot high-power. The first match I shot an 85 standing and an 82 kneeling. I knew that I had to improve and though I on occasion was able to turn in a 90 in kneeling, I began to shoot sitting.

My scores hovered around 90-92 in sitting for the next few years. I couldn't get a stable position and breathing was difficult. Recently the loss of 24lbs changed that. I am now able to get a good position, and my scores rose. But, they didn't rise to the point of being competitive. The reason that they didn't rise more is because I had it in my head to accept any shot that was in the black (a 9 or a 10). If you do this you will be limiting yourself.

In high-power the really competitive shooters are going to clean sitting unless something is wrong. The best that I have been able to do is a 97-4. I can shoot 97's and 96's very comfortably. That's not bad, but it won't win sitting matches.

After a couple of months of frustration, I talked to some of the best shooters that I know this weekend. The first was VAShooter. He told me that when he arrived at the Navy team in 1967, he wasn't cleaning sitting. So he watched the best shooter on the team, and made a discovery. That shooter shot sitting like it was slow fire. I don't mean that brought the rifle down or single loaded. I mean that he didn't take the shot unless the sight was right and he was going to get a 10 or an X. VAShooter upgraded to that method and began to clean the sitting stage with an M1 with a 12lb trigger. One speed on the trigger, let the sights, not anything else be your guide on when to fire.

The second shooter is a member of the Virginia Team a couple of years older than me. He's been on several winning civilian teams at the Nationals and was on the overall winning team when VA beat the AMU, Marines, and every other team in the country to win the Infantry Trophy in 2014.  He's been competing since he was in his mid 20's (as opposed to starting at 47 like me). He gave me some exercises that he uses to work on his sitting early in the season. The first is to actually shoot sitting like it was slow fire. You bring the rifle down after each shot, rest 15 seconds, remount the rifle and then shoot an X. You don't try for a 10, you shoot for an X. When you do that for 40 or 50 rounds, you've put in a good day of training. The goal is to teach your mind not to accept sloppy. You take the shot when it is right. Once you develop your accuracy so that you are cleaning the target at this rate, you then speed up. First, you might take a couple of minutes to shoot a clean, but as you continue, you find yourself shooting 100's as a matter of course in 55 seconds or less.

All of this is the intro for the real point of this topic. What is good enough? The answer to that question is that it depends. But if you limit yourself from the beginning, you will never know your true potential.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

navybowhunter

#1
Thanks Mike,

Good stuff.  Cleaning sitting I have yet to do, but reading Greg Ficklin's post on the CMP forum was an eye opener for me, that and Ken Roxburgh's clinic and YouTube videos.

I've heard matches are won and lost at the 200 yard line and 600 yard line.  Greg likens the rapid seating to "free throw shoots" in basketball.  One must make the free throws at 200/300.

Ken helped with the advice on loosening/unbuttoning the belt/button on pants.  Also, when I am in prep now, I "skooch" my butt AFT some while seated, it allows for the thighs to act as a more stable platform.  That surely helped.

I like your comment from the VA guys about "Shoot rapids like slow fire".  This takes practice and I have yet to perfect it.  I found that if I have no alibi, I normally have 20+ seconds remaining, of which could have likely taken some 8's and made em 10's.

Good stuff as always!

R/
Chris

jmdavis

The reason that I used to shoot with suspenders was that it meant no belt in the way and I could unbutton my pants without them falling down.

Losing weight has made the suspenders extraneous. I can now shoot without going through the process of unbuttoning my pants and with my belt where I normally wear it or one notch looser.

But the best part is that my positions are now more upright. That's where I think that most of the improvement comes from.


If you get to go to the Remington High Power Class at Perry, I recommend it. You are ready for it. It is 2.5 days of non firing. With 1 day of classroom and 1.5 days of coached dry fire.

Mike
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

jmdavis

#3
Remember, you can't miss fast enough. Most shooters try to shoot faster than they can accurately shoot. No one cares if you take 54 seconds to shoot sitting if you clean it. They also don't care if you take 38 if you don't clean it.

At first you may find that you shoot worse doing it at a slow fire pace. But you will correct that with practice. When you can break NPOA, mount the rifle and shoot and X on the first shot every time. Doing it at speed will be even easier.

Watch Sherri Gallagher again from 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI3CNcLDvTs

Dennis Demille in Prep, sighters, and sitting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5dEr2NmNQs

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

navybowhunter

Then there is the bolt actions (LOL....but that's rapid prone), humbled on those matches.  DRY fire, I know.

Do you peek thru the scope after the first 2 shots?

I find I am so discombobulated when the target appears, I neglect to look.  I think I will work on getting the cadence and accuracy right, then start taking a "peek" after first 2.

R/
Chris

jmdavis

Until you have rock-solid zeroes, check the scope. Later it won't matter. You see both Sherri and Dennis checking the scope after the stage. But remember, I have watched Sherri shoot a 200-18 before at the Creedmoor Cup. Dennis is that good too. They know their zeroes.

A number of shooters, don't check the scope, but you can bet that they have great zeroes and solid positions.

Dryfire is the difference. If you can clean it in slowfire, you can clean it in rapid. If you can't on the otherhand...
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Cadence

I have read that you should do the reload first and then check the scope. If you check the scope first and have issues with the reload you have lost valuable time.

Chris - Hope to see you again at CP this summer! O0
"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the
whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they
lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."
~ Samuel Adams

jmdavis

Quote from: Cadence on January 12, 2016, 02:50:23 PM
I have read that you should do the reload first and then check the scope. If you check the scope first and have issues with the reload you have lost valuable time.

Chris - Hope to see you again at CP this summer! O0

Yes, if you are going to scope reload first, or reload while scoping. VAshooter would reload the M1 by feel while checking the scope (at least early in the season). But the reload shouldn't slow you down and usually a quick glance will tell you what you need to know about the target.
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Agrivere

Very well said, Mike! I would extend your idea of "good enough" to your position as well. We all have different body types and what works for one may not work well for another.  Think hard about your own body shape and keep working on your positions until the rifle holds still. And I mean completely still. Scatt training has shown me that my wobble in sitting is about 1 MOA. It's pretty easy to shoot a 3.5 minute 10 ring when the rifle is only moving a tiny bit. But it took me two years of practice and coaching to get to that point, and those who have shot with me lately have seen that my sitting position is very unorthodox. It does, however, match my body type perfectly.

Once your position is solid, shoot to sight picture. When the sights are aligned squeeze the trigger. Smooth trigger pull and sight focus will give nothing but X's.  Last week I shot a sitting practice string on the Scatt and came away with a 200-20x in sitting slow fire. It absolutely can be done!
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

jmdavis

#9
Bringing this back to the top. After following this advice my sitting is much improved. I am regularly cleaning targets in sitting in practice and matches. Cleans with 4-6x on a 10 shot course of fire and 193-199 with up to 10x on a 20 shot course of fire. This is an improvement of 6 to 12 points from last year in sitting. I have also lost another 13lbs for a total of 37lbs since Oct.

I will add that I recently attended an event where Major E.J. Land spoke. Land is considered by many to be the father of Modern Sniping in the Marine Corps. Land throughout his career has shown the positive relationship of competitive marksmanship to combat marksmanship. When tasked with setting up a sniper school in Vietnam. He bagan with a list of the distinguished Marine shooters in Vietnam and the Far East.

So learn to shoot well and the fast will come. The other way, just doesn't work as good.

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

jmdavis

I am now using similar methods to those discussed here to improve my slow prone. I was hurt this year by being soppy with slow prone at the National. I was down 16 points going back to 600. Since a 470 will generally earn distinguished points I felt good. It  didn't work out though and I finished the day with a personal best, but with a score below both my potential and the cut for the distinguished program.

I've been hovering around 88-90% for slow prone and that just won't cut it in competition. With my experience I should be shooting 95% or better. I have received some coaching in the past year from some very good shooters on the Virginia Team. I finally feel like it is starting to help with my last slowfire prone practice turning in my first Master class scores with a 96% on the last 20 shots.

The moral here is to not be sloppy. Learn to shoot well and them speed up. Develop solid repeatable positions. Have a reliable and repeatable shot process. As Lanny Bassham would say, "Take the 10, take it."

"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner