Keeping consistent sight alignment while operating a bolt

[TheSquirrelPatrol]

I recently acquired a nice new bolt rifle, and I've been doing lots of dry practice.  I've worked on my position to the point that I can keep my elbow planted and my cheek on the stock while I work the bolt, but the thing I'm currently fighting, and that I've seen students on the line fight, is that when I take my trigger hand off the stock, the rifle cants to my trigger side under sling tension.  What is the best way to avoid this?  I can do it by loosening the sling, but I have to loosen it way past the point I'd like to.  Is there something in the angle or position of the support hand, or perhaps how the stock is in the shoulder pocket, that would cause the rifle to want to cant, and that done properly will prevent it?

[FiremanBob]

First fix is to adjust the way the butt fits into your shoulder pocket. Good alignment there should keep the rifle on keel.

If the rifle is not aligned in the pocket so that it rides vertically, then you are using muscles to line it up as you shoot.

[TOMINCT]

  You didn't mention the type of rifle you were using, 22 or centerfire, it can make a difference.

If a 22 you need a snug sling, not tight. Just enough to hold it in place. No recoil so returning to target shouldn't be an issue. The sights could be low to the bore, causing you to 'bury' your face into the stock. Can be uncomfortable and may cause one to cant the rifle while running it. Some cant can be seen by some shooters, mostly in the sitting position as body differences tend to show up in the sitting more than prone.

I think if you keep your triggerside elbow in place while operating the bolt you will have some movement, no matter what, As long as you keep everything in place it will return to your NPOA.

If you watch some old films with military shooters running an '03 you will see some pretty violent muzzle movement while keeping their elbow on the ground. They actually 'roll' the rifle with the support hand, which pitches the muzzle towards their trigger side. It's the only way it can be done with the long bolt throw of a LA bolt action rifle.

Another way is to lift your trigger side elbow when operating the  bolt and after closing let it fall where it may. Sounds sloppy but if you're position is good it WILL return to where it was and you WILL  be back on target. When in prep run it in a RF cadence to check your NPOA.

If you have a good cheek weld and you plan to use a CF bolt in the future you can lift your face off the stock and return to it's proper place after cycling the bolt. Without some movement it will be awful hard to operate a CF bolt efficiently.

[TheSquirrelPatrol]

This rifle is a Savage Mark II .22lr, but the plan is that it's a trainer for a savage centerfire to be purchased later.  Ideally I want to be operating them exactly the same way.  I suspect I've just got my sling too tight, but experience with my AR and Garand indicate that where I've got it is a good tension, if I back off even 1/4" inch on the sling, my groups open up.  I'll try focusing on where the stock is in my shoulder pocket, ideally with how tight the sling is, the rifle should be pretty much locked to my body, I would think.

[floydf]

Mostly what I shoot is bolts. Here are a couple of comments from my experience.

First, needing to loosen the sling to keep the rifle from canting can come from a squishy cheek weld.  In prone, elbow under the rifle, properly tensioned sling and rock sold cheek weld should produce a sufficiently solid position that the trigger hand just rests on the stock.  If removing the trigger hand changes the POA AT ALL, you have a problem.  With rimfire, a small problem, with major caliber, a large problem.

Second, IMO, proper sling tension is not something that can be figured out with dry fire.  You need to see holes in paper to figure out what works.  If cheek weld is good (lots of pooch on the top of the comb), the drill I would use would be to take 100 rounds and six sheets of squares down to my home range, post three sheets of squares, start with 15 loose rounds, load five, put one in each square on the first sheet making an NPOA shift between each shot, break position, load five more, shoot them, NPOA, break position, load five, shoot.  At this point, there are three holes in each black square.  Then, take 1/2 inch out of the sling, and do the same on the 2nd sheet. Then, take another half inch out, and run the third sheet.  This is about time for a cease fire, go down range and pull and post, and do it for three more sheets.  The goal is to clearly work from too loose to too tight in moderate increments.  Somewhere in that range, the position will feel way, way better, and you'll see from the groups where the sling needs to be.

Once you have that, mark it on the sling, and then dry fire works to get your body to remember that position.  Until you know exactly where the sling needs to be, dry fire is really just poking in the dark.

This is a BIG DEAL with bolties, because you are pretty much breaking position on every shot.  A lot of semi-auto rimfire shooters have all sorts of position problems, but, because they are on platforms with no recoil and don't have to break position, they can cheat like big dogs and shoot much higher scores than they really deserve.  Once they get to more challenging platforms, things fall apart, and they have to actually make the whole cheek weld, sight alignment, steady hold position work.  With a boltie, you have to make those things work from day one.

Third, the key to shooting AQTs well with a bolt is NOT running the bolt fast on the rapid fire stages.  The most important thing is to clean Stage 4.  The second most important thing is to clean Stage 1.  If you can do both of those, you go into the rapid fire stages with 150 points on the board, and if you get 7 in the black on Stage 2 and 7 in the black on Stage 3, you've shot a sold 215+.  And, honestly, if you're not cleaning Stages 1 and 4, well there's something lurking around in Position, Six Steps, or NPOA that will make you shoot better.  Time spent figuring that out is much better spent than trying to make the bolt go faster.

Appleseed is all about shooting Expert with rack grade rifle and standard issue ball ammo.  There are no High Masters in Appleseed.  So it makes sense to figure out where you want to give up points on the AQT.  I don't feel bad about only 7 or 8 in the black on Stage 2 and 3.  As long as I've got 49/50 on stages one and four.  215 to 220 is good enough for Rifleman.

The most important part of running the bolt in the rapid fire stages is not speed, but doing it hard.  Jeff Cooper said to show the bolt no mercy.  The problem with bolts is that if you don't hit them hard, you don't get the casing ejected and the next one seated, and then you waste all sorts of time diddle futzing around trying to fix things.  I run a Ruger 308 Scout wrong handed (lefty shooting right handed rifle) because it gives me a lot more leverage on the bolt.  And yeah, elbows come off the ground, but you get real good at falling back into position.  I am NOT a fan of the "try to minimize body shift when running the bolt" advice. 

Second most important thing is to run the bolt in cadence.  Break the shot, hold the trigger until the rifle comes out of recoil, then breathe in, run the bolt, breathe out, and break the next shot.  You need to be in control and driving that bolt with your breathing.  That can be practiced dry fire, and helps.  A lot.  Plus mag changes.  The big advantage of the bolt is that you can run the entire manual of arms dry, at home, so you can get some really good practice at the rapid fire stages that the semi-auto guys can only get by hold the trigger back, and saying "bang!".

Bolt guns rock.  Welcome to the club.

[Agrivere]

I'm not sure why you're thinking the rifle has to not move when you work the bolt?  The important part is that you return to the same position, not that the rifle doesn't move.  As Tominct pointed out, it's nearly impossible to operate a bolt on a long action like an 03A3 without moving when you work the bolt, and it doesn't matter.  What matters is that you return to the same position.

Focus on what's important - sight alignment and trigger control.  If the rifle cants when you work the bolt, and it comes back into position when you close the bolt, then don't give that another thought.  If it doesn't, adjust your process so you DO come back into the same position, and then don't give it another thought. 

I would agree that less movement is better than more movement, but it's just not worth worrying about too much.  Highpower shooters generally take the rifle down completely between shots in the Slow Prone stage, as all shots are single loaded, and you have to wait for the pits to score your shot, check the wind, etc.  Doesn't really matter where the rifle goes in between shots as long as it goes back to the same place for each shot.

[Laredo]

Good read.  Thanks for the advice.  Great timing.  The family is doing a KD shoot this weekend and my youngest is running a bolt.  She loves them.  I will pass this on to her.

[olefido]

Make of this what you will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuvkUAHEDg

[gonejohnny]

Lots of good information here on this thread 

I sure do love an 03-A3! I'm of the "keep-both-elbows-planted-and-pitch-the-piece-towards-your-trigger-side-to-operate-the-bolt" variety... but... it is my experience that if this is the route taken, doubling up on a super solid cheek (or spot) weld is paramount to maintain small & accurately placed groups. This also goes for ensuring that your support hand never moves throughout the string as well...

Repeatability is the key. This can be attained through practice that breeds a relationship & familiarity with the particular piece your attempting to learn. Each rifle is different and (I have found) requires a little something different to truly make each on shine on it's own!

The rest is really all the fundamentals that Appleseed teaches through and through...

.22's are great for what they are. They can definitely be approached as a separate entity all together, but I am of the belief that if one is using a .22 as a trainer for a centerfire - they should try and work it like a center fire. This means the bulk of the benefit one gets with practice on a rimfire pertains mostly to shots taken in slow-fire (again, once the fundamentals of rapid fire are understood... read: trigger reset, cadence, etc).

Great thread!
- Johnny

[jmdavis]

 Watch

http://youtu.be/ncBPtChn4ME

This is Msgr Julia Watson from 2011.

FYI, her prone rapid score was 100-2x

[Charles McKinley]

https://books.google.com/books/about/Suggestions_to_Military_Riflemen.html?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ

Suggestions to Military Riflemen By Townsend Whelen is from the golden age of ilitary bolts.  Just check out that "Chicken Wing" the guy on the cover has! 

I roll when operation the bolt myself.  For your future centerfire bolt purchase at least look at and handle the Mossberg MVP in 5.56 or 7.62 NATO.  My brother loves his varmint version 5.56 and has shot Rifleman with it.  The 7.62 version should be my next firearm purchase.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/

[TOMINCT]

 In a Canadian manual from the early 50's it was advocated to "roll to the right" with elbows planted. Probably worked best for them as they did not use a sling as a shooting aid.

The manual was written by Lt. Col. Stephen Johnson for use by the Canadian Rangers. If you look for a copy the name of it was called 'Shoot to live'.

As said as long as the sights are on when they are supposed to be, that's what really matters. Keep it simple.

[proneshooter]

Make of this what you will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuvkUAHEDg

What I make of that is that he sets the standard

[proneshooter]

Third, the key to shooting AQTs well with a bolt is NOT running the bolt fast on the rapid fire stages.  The most important thing is to clean Stage 4.  The second most important thing is to clean Stage 1.  If you can do both of those, you go into the rapid fire stages with 150 points on the board, and if you get 7 in the black on Stage 2 and 7 in the black on Stage 3, you've shot a sold 215+. 

Appleseed is all about shooting Expert with rack grade rifle and standard issue ball ammo.  There are no High Masters in Appleseed.  So it makes sense to figure out where you want to give up points on the AQT.  I don't feel bad about only 7 or 8 in the black on Stage 2 and 3.  As long as I've got 49/50 on stages one and four.  215 to 220 is good enough for Rifleman.

The most important part of running the bolt in the rapid fire stages is not speed, but doing it hard.  Jeff Cooper said to show the bolt no mercy.  The problem with bolts is that if you don't hit them hard, you don't get the casing ejected and the next one seated, and then you waste all sorts of time diddle futzing around trying to fix things.  I run a Ruger 308 Scout wrong handed (lefty shooting right handed rifle) because it gives me a lot more leverage on the bolt.  And yeah, elbows come off the ground, but you get real good at falling back into position.  I am NOT a fan of the "try to minimize body shift when running the bolt" advice.

A lot of poor advice here.

[proneshooter]

Watch

http://youtu.be/ncBPtChn4ME

This is Msgr Julia Watson from 2011.

FYI, her prone rapid score was 100-2x

Mike, I wonder if anyone noticed

[proneshooter]

More examples to follow
https://youtu.be/4soI4P0DNZo

https://youtu.be/Pmwr93LxWCM

https://youtu.be/q5dEr2NmNQs

[TOMINCT]

 Lots of info here that can help, but don't get totally enamored by some of the vids. We're not all on a military team or utilizing a custom stocked match rifle.

There are different body shapes/types, rifle types, the list goes on. The main thing is to get some practice in, both dry and live. It's easier with a rimfire or a short action CF than with an 03A3 or K98. Get smooth running it, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. If you leave a couple rounds in the mag at the end of the time limit and the rounds fired are good you will have a decent score.

Pushing a bolt hard won't be smooth, it will be HARD. Good for a grizzly or cape buffalo at 10 yards with a LA bolt, not too good for an AQT.

[olefido]

My understanding of one component of the use of bolt guns in rapid fire: The classic example of Lee-Enfields in which the bolts cock on opening vs. Mauser-type weapons which cock when the bolt is closed. The former makes for a lighter easier bolt throw but makes the rifles generally less accurate than the latter which is a much stiffer action. Remember, this is a "generally" statement individual rifles of either type may go against the grain. IOW, Enfield type rifles may be highly accurate and Mauser rifles may not be able to hit the side of the proverbial barn.

I think that practice, practice, and more practice is the key here. I remember reading that one thing that soldiers in the days the 03 used to do was sit around for hours just working the bolts to make their bolt throws as smooth and fast as possible. It also smoothed up the action. I think the guy in the video I shared would be nearly as fast with whatever bolt rifle you put in his hands. He has probably run that bolt thousands upon thousands of times and had that same rifle for years. Since the end of WW2, as we have become more of a consumer culture, there is less tendency to have that "one gun" for years upon years. I see other videos on YouTube where the guys are carrying something different every time they produce a new video. I would find one good rifle and work with it a lot. I remember being at a KD with a former instructor who was running  a Mossberg MVP Predator. He scored 39/40. He knew how to work the bolt and practiced it.

I also think that we should think beyond relating everything to success on the AQT. If we are shooting the Rifleman's score, we are just beginning the journey to being a "real" Rifleman. I just got my red hat this spring and I feel like I am way behind the curve on being a true rifleman. When we can be like Col. Townsend Whelen and "memory" our way to match wins long after our eyesight has let us down we will be close. But riflecraft like perfection is more of a journey than a destination.

[proneshooter]

Lots of info here that can help, but don't get totally enamored by some of the vids. We're not all on a military team or utilizing a custom stocked match rifle.

Yes, no one should aspire to shoot like the best.......

BTW, the guys that can run a custom stocked match rifle like a raped ape can also clean anyone's clock with a rack grade rifle and ball ammo.

[proneshooter]

I also think that we should think beyond relating everything to success on the AQT. If we are shooting the Rifleman's score, we are just beginning the journey to being a "real" Rifleman. I just got my red hat this spring and I feel like I am way behind the curve on being a true rifleman. When we can be like Col. Townsend Whelen and "memory" our way to match wins long after our eyesight has let us down we will be close. But riflecraft like perfection is more of a journey than a destination.

Hammer meets nail.........

[proneshooter]

Americans hardly have a monopoly on being riflemen.  Europeans, by virtue of the fact that they need to demonstrate a reason to have a gun before they are allowed, are forced to actually DO something with them.  And to buy a hunting license in just about any Euro country you must show your proficiency, not just sit through a stupid safety class and pay $25.

I am hardly saying I want it to be like that here, I'm just laying the groundwork to explain to you all what you're about to see

BTW, wild boar are just as much of a pest there as they are here.  And yes, all the pigs get collected at the end of the driven hunt, butchered, and sold to market.

https://youtu.be/b43aF4R0h40

[floydf]

Townsend Whelan, towards the end of The American Rifle, relates full distance shooting competitions as the college education level of riflecraft.  And he was writing at a time when only a very select few went to college.  That seems about right to me.

Appleseed, on the other hand, is the Grade School (rimfire at 25), Middle School (center-fire at 25), and High School (center-fire at known distance).

My comment was that, in order to get a High School diploma with a bolt gun, you can do just about everything wrong with the bolt (which I do), and as long as you can clean Stages One and Four with consistent 49s or 50s, you can still graduate.    Further, once you get to college, should you choose to go, you will really want these skills.

There is certainly a continuity between Grade School, Middle School, High School, and College.  But for the same reason we don't use college textobooks for middle school algebra, it seems appropriate to say, at this level it is better to work on this instead of that.

Which was my point.  And which, as proneshooter pointed out, was all sorts of poor advice for the college student.

[glocker21]

Mostly what I shoot is bolts. Here are a couple of comments from my experience.

First, needing to loosen the sling to keep the rifle from canting can come from a squishy cheek weld.  In prone, elbow under the rifle, properly tensioned sling and rock sold cheek weld should produce a sufficiently solid position that the trigger hand just rests on the stock.  If removing the trigger hand changes the POA AT ALL, you have a problem.  With rimfire, a small problem, with major caliber, a large problem.

Second, IMO, proper sling tension is not something that can be figured out with dry fire.  You need to see holes in paper to figure out what works.  If cheek weld is good (lots of pooch on the top of the comb), the drill I would use would be to take 100 rounds and six sheets of squares down to my home range, post three sheets of squares, start with 15 loose rounds, load five, put one in each square on the first sheet making an NPOA shift between each shot, break position, load five more, shoot them, NPOA, break position, load five, shoot.  At this point, there are three holes in each black square.  Then, take 1/2 inch out of the sling, and do the same on the 2nd sheet. Then, take another half inch out, and run the third sheet.  This is about time for a cease fire, go down range and pull and post, and do it for three more sheets.  The goal is to clearly work from too loose to too tight in moderate increments.  Somewhere in that range, the position will feel way, way better, and you'll see from the groups where the sling needs to be.

Once you have that, mark it on the sling, and then dry fire works to get your body to remember that position.  Until you know exactly where the sling needs to be, dry fire is really just poking in the dark.

This is a BIG DEAL with bolties, because you are pretty much breaking position on every shot.  A lot of semi-auto rimfire shooters have all sorts of position problems, but, because they are on platforms with no recoil and don't have to break position, they can cheat like big dogs and shoot much higher scores than they really deserve.  Once they get to more challenging platforms, things fall apart, and they have to actually make the whole cheek weld, sight alignment, steady hold position work.  With a boltie, you have to make those things work from day one.

Third, the key to shooting AQTs well with a bolt is NOT running the bolt fast on the rapid fire stages.  The most important thing is to clean Stage 4.  The second most important thing is to clean Stage 1.  If you can do both of those, you go into the rapid fire stages with 150 points on the board, and if you get 7 in the black on Stage 2 and 7 in the black on Stage 3, you've shot a sold 215+.  And, honestly, if you're not cleaning Stages 1 and 4, well there's something lurking around in Position, Six Steps, or NPOA that will make you shoot better.  Time spent figuring that out is much better spent than trying to make the bolt go faster.

Appleseed is all about shooting Expert with rack grade rifle and standard issue ball ammo.  There are no High Masters in Appleseed.  So it makes sense to figure out where you want to give up points on the AQT.  I don't feel bad about only 7 or 8 in the black on Stage 2 and 3.  As long as I've got 49/50 on stages one and four.  215 to 220 is good enough for Rifleman.

The most important part of running the bolt in the rapid fire stages is not speed, but doing it hard.  Jeff Cooper said to show the bolt no mercy.  The problem with bolts is that if you don't hit them hard, you don't get the casing ejected and the next one seated, and then you waste all sorts of time diddle futzing around trying to fix things.  I run a Ruger 308 Scout wrong handed (lefty shooting right handed rifle) because it gives me a lot more leverage on the bolt.  And yeah, elbows come off the ground, but you get real good at falling back into position.  I am NOT a fan of the "try to minimize body shift when running the bolt" advice. 

Second most important thing is to run the bolt in cadence.  Break the shot, hold the trigger until the rifle comes out of recoil, then breathe in, run the bolt, breathe out, and break the next shot.  You need to be in control and driving that bolt with your breathing.  That can be practiced dry fire, and helps.  A lot.  Plus mag changes.  The big advantage of the bolt is that you can run the entire manual of arms dry, at home, so you can get some really good practice at the rapid fire stages that the semi-auto guys can only get by hold the trigger back, and saying "bang!".

Bolt guns rock.  Welcome to the club.

Well said!

[NJrefugee]

For anyone who has not seen this video, it is pretty amazing. The shooter is running a bolt-action .308 and has 2 mags of 4 rounds each, and 2 loose rounds he is single-loading. Also, notice he starts without the sling on his support arm. His blog contains a wealth of information.
https://artoftherifle.com/appleseed-shooting-the-full-distance-aqt/2012/11/appleseed-shooting-the-full-distance-aqt.html

[Kennebago]

For anyone who has not seen this video, it is pretty amazing. The shooter is running a bolt-action .308 and has 2 mags of 4 rounds each, and 2 loose rounds he is single-loading. Also, notice he starts without the sling on his support arm. His blog contains a wealth of information.
https://artoftherifle.com/appleseed-shooting-the-full-distance-aqt/2012/11/appleseed-shooting-the-full-distance-aqt.html

Rifleslinger (the shooter) is a fairly good resource, but I would recommend that serious bolt-action shooters in the Appleseed world take a lot of what he says and do their own evaluations.

For instance, I really dislike his bolt technique (discussed in-depth here). Ignoring all other factors, transferring the bolt between fingers introduces a very large variable that is just bound to cause problems at speed (or under an adrenaline dump), and you can see it clearly in that video. He fumbles the bolt work after his first and sixth rounds, and I would argue his seventh as well (because of how jerky it is). Being generous and calling it just two, that's still a 20% rate for the stage. You can really, really see it after the sixth shot, where he loses contact with the bolt handle (hand slips high, watch the thumb). He's forced to give up on his technique entirely for that shot and palms(!) the bolt closed.

Edit: Watch Chris Baker crush his bolt work at 0:55 in this video. Grip n' rip is blazing fast, and it's much more secure than futzing around with leverage and changing your grip and whatever else.

Just one fool's opinion, of course.