TUNING THE MOSIN NAGANT RIFLE

[katooutdoors]

Since there are so many of these rifles out there that do not cost a whole lot I just thought I would share what has worked for me on a 1944 carbine.

Installed Mojo Sights front and rear

Made a shim with a hole drilled in the center that is .025 thick that I placed under the sear to sightly drop it down, this helps give you a shorter trigger pull and you have to make sure to have more than .015 sear engagement. (also put some low strenght loctite on the screw) They sell prussian blue in automotive stores and you can put a dab on the sear to give you an idea of how much engagement you have.

Installed Huber Concepts Trigger

Using my dremel tool with the buffing wheel and Dupont #7 automotive polishing compound I polished the sear, sear engagement area on the bolt, took the bolt apart and polished all contact areas.

Next I attached a G.I. cleaning rod to my electric drill and using various sized gun cleaning kit mops with the dupont #7 the rifle chamber area proceeded to get shined up a little. Make sure the chamber has been cleaned of all cosmoline, I ended up using different sized bore brushes with cleaning patches soaked with rubbing alcohol.

At the range with Wolf Gold 150 gr and S&B 180 gr, the wolf would not give a good group for some reason, but the S&B ammo put out groups around 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards so it seems at least some of these rifles like the 180 gr bullets, I bought some ammo with the brass cases so later on I could test out some reloads to see what would work best.  Testing the trigger pull on the rifle it seemed to break at somewhere from 3 3/4 to 4 pounds and the bolt now works nice and smooth. Some people wouldn't spend the extra money on this type of rifle but it only cost me $69.00, it is built heavy duty and there are spare parts available for it, who knows maybe next I might even try glass bedding it.   

[wcmartin1]

Mine likes the Remington CoreLokt 180 grain .311 diameter (7.7 Jap/.303 British) bullet with a max charge of IMR 4320.

I have used S&B brass, but it's only good for a couple of reloads (poor quality). 

Have had better luck with recycling the Winchester brass from a couple of their offerings.

I believe Nickle is using the PPU brass and you can get it from Graf's.  PPU makes the Wolf Gold you mentioned.

[SamD]

Although pretty crude the Russians got their moneys worth from the Nagant.  There are still thousands of them floating around over there giving good service. Not much to go wrong with them, and parts are relatively easy to make when needed.  They are more than 'serviceable"   

Sam

[wcmartin1]

Although pretty crude the Russians got their moneys worth from the Nagant.  There are still thousands of them floating around over there giving good service. Not much to go wrong with them, and parts are relatively easy to make when needed.  They are more than 'serviceable"   

Sam

Yep.  It's what I use for my truck gun.  It's ugly, but I don't think I can break it.

[Nickle]

Most of the top snipers of all time are Finns or Russians, and most of them used Mosins.

The top sniper, Simo Häyhä, used a Finnish M28 Mosin, with iron sights. 542 dead Russians, an average of about 5 per day.

The only serious drawback I see is speed.

[MosinNagant]

Great article on Simo Here ---> http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

[ashrn03]

The only serious drawback I see is speed.

Mosin's may be fired quite rapidly, by right-handed shooters, but not in the positions we teach at Appleseed.  In the 'foxhole supported' position (forend supported by sandbags or something) hold the rifle against the shoulder with the right hand and reach over the rifle with the left hand and manipulate the bolt.  The same technique works well with straight-bolt Mausers too.

[TaosGlock]

I have a whole safe dedicated to my Mosins. They are vastly underated in the modern world of firearms, especially "tarted up" semi-autos.
Most will easily do the Rifleman's standard of 4MOA with mil-surp ammo. Stripper clips are available online.
If I could only have one Mosin Nagant, it would be a 91/30 type or the rifle version as opposed to the M38 or M44 carbines.
The longer barrel is much better for a "Rifleman". The short carbines are lots of flash n' bark but can be very handy for some applications. My carbines are general purpose truck guns and used for hunting in tight places.

I do a similar trigger job that kato does from here:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/improvingm44carbines/index.asp
I don't recommend cutting the firing pin spring off a few coils as this author did. You will get a few misfires on some brands of mil-surp ammo with their hard primers.
In fact Wolff makes an even heavier than factory recoil spring to light those hard primers and to replace weak old springs you may encounter on some of these rifles.
You get better lock time too.

At the New Mexico IBC, Paul (ashrn03), showed us how to properly engage that  seldom used, heavy and awkward safety. What, you have been doing it that way all these years? < While holding the rifle in your weak side hand, take the buttstock of the rifle and simply put it in the crook of your strong side arm. While the rifle is snug in the crook of your arm, simply reach up to the circular cocking piece/safety and grasp it with your thumb, middle and index fingers and pull back and twist to the left. This leverage method makes engaging the safety simple and fast.

A Front sight tool can be ordered here:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mosinfrontsight/index.asp
ashrn03 also calculated the amount of MOA per turn for this one of a kind homemade front sight tool. It is 5 MOA/turn.
ash03 also showed us that a guy trained with stripper clips gives up little to a guy using a detach mag. He proved it too!
Right on the kitchen floor at midnight!  10 dummy rounds (2-5 round reloads from the stripper clips.) It was actually with an 03 Springfield at that point.

And like Nickle just posted, ashrn03 showed us the non-AS position of the  "foxhole supported position" shooting using a chair.
Hey, folks, it's about adapt, persist and overcome. Never know what situation you as a "Rifleman" might find yourself in.

[Southern Grey]

I'm going to check out some of the rifles over the weekend for potential purchase. Is there anything I need to know or be mindful of when selecting one or two?

[Nickle]

Look in the bore to check the rifling.

If the rifling looks strong, as in fairly thick, with minimal throat wear, then it's probably good. Take a .30 cal cartridge and check for muzzle wear, too.

Now, some of the bores look dark, almost like looking into a sewer pipe. My experience has been that's OK, as long as the rifling is good.

[ashrn03]

The best Mosins, IMHO, are the Finn M39's.  Stronger stock, better trigger, better sights.  They're also getting harder to find.  Mosin hex actions were made until the late 1920's - Finns used nothing else for their M39's (they never made their actions, they 'recycled' Russians, bought or captured).  Anyway, the hex actions generally exhibit better craftsmanship, especially when compared to war-time round ones.  Next best are the pre-war round actions.  The actions made during the early years of WWII (1942, 43) were done in a hurry.  Significant variations in groove diameter have been reported with these rifles.  I'd be more inclined toward an arsenal reman (laminated stock, new varnish, fresh blue) than a beater.  So, if I were in the market, I'd be interested in a 91/30 with a hex action and laminated stock.  As you're probably aware, the short-barreled M44's and M38's kick hard and are really loud.  (But the M44's bayonet does let you 'park' the rifle easily by sticking it in the ground  ).

[txpirate]

The guys at Box O Truth bedded a MN.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu75.htm

[Francis Marion]

I'm going to check out some of the rifles over the weekend for potential purchase. Is there anything I need to know or be mindful of when selecting one or two?

Open bolt, draw back, while pulling trigger to remove bolt.
Bring cleaning rod, patches, solvent, small flashlight, business card with you to inspect.  After a few patches, peer through barrel, using white business card on the opposide end to reflect light into the barrel.  Flashlight useful to inspect chamber and throat.  
You can find like-new bores, just look for them.

[wildman]

Didn't realize Huber made a trigger for the 91/30. The standard service trigger is a pig.  Mine won't shoot the light ball but works well with Brown Bear 190+ FMJ. Aim Surplus has 180gr. Yugo brass cased for sale at 3.95/15rds I was thinkin' about gettin' some. Anybody tried it?

[Southern Grey]

I bought 2 of the 91/30s. Both had bores and great shape, but one looked nearly new. Both seemingly had been revarnished and the bluing looked relatively fresh.

They both came with bayonet, sling and double pouch with tools and a double capped metal flask. What was its purpose?

What is the best method to use cleaning the barrel and actions after using corrosive ammo?

[Southern Grey]

bores in great shape. I gotta get more sleep.

[snaphook75]

Regarding checking muzzle wear: the M44's have an attachment on the end of the barrel, I presume involved in the integral bayonet mount (it sure doesn't hide much flash!!). The muzzle of the barrel is actually about 2 inches down. I'm sure you would figure this out at least as quickly as I did...one day I decided to check the wear on my M44 by inserting a cartridge - as I had recently done to the multitude of glorious M1 Garands as CMP - and nearly had a heart attack when the shell headspaced on what I thought was the muzzle!!    Only after investigating with a flashlight did I learn the truth. Hopefully, the real muzzle won't swallow a whole shell - though I can't think of how to gauge it.

Cheers!

[Garand69]

I bought 2 of the 91/30s. Both had bores and great shape, but one looked nearly new. Both seemingly had been revarnished and the bluing looked relatively fresh.

They both came with bayonet, sling and double pouch with tools and a double capped metal flask. What was its purpose?

What is the best method to use cleaning the barrel and actions after using corrosive ammo?

The metal flask most likly contained bore solvent on one side and oil on the other.

As for corrosive ammo, the key is to clean it after you shoot it, not the next day or next week, THAT DAY.

I use the same methods for corrosive or non-corrosive with no issues. (note; everyone does it their own way, I'm not saying my way is better, just that it works fine on corrosive ammo, here is a link to a thread discussing Hoppes #9 http://mscg.yuku.com/topic/385)

#1, swab the bore with a patch wet with Hoppe's #9 bore solvent before leaving the range.

#2, Once at home, pull the bolt and brush the bolt face with hoppe's #9 then dip a bore brush in hoppe's #9 and give the bore and chamber a scrub set down rifle.

#3, fully scrub the bolt with a stiff brush dipped in bore solvent and then dry off and set aside.

#4, run a clean wet patch down the bore, followed by several dry, then a clean wet brush, followed by dry patches, continue until patches are clean and dry

#5, oil the chamber and bore with a patch lubed in a quality gun oil (the oil in the kit is fine, I use Kroil)

#6 wiped off bolt with an oiled rag, re assemble.

Prior to shooting, run a dry patch down the bore.

[DuaneRN]

,

[Southern Grey]

I started the cleaning disassembly this evening. One of the rifles has a difficult bolt to turn open when cocking. Is there anything I can do to smooth that problem out? I really am unsure why it is "dragging". Nor do I know for sure where.

For grins I greased the receiver and the reassembled bolt with some synthetic lube that I use at work. It really seemed to make little or no difference.

The other rifle I have exhibits much less resistance. I've compared the bolts and can see no discernable differences. Since the bolts are serialized to the rifles, I did not try to see if they were interchangeable.

Lastly, there is a screw at the knob end of the bolt that apparently attaches to the rear end of the firing pin assembly and has some spring tension on it. It has stake marks to keep it from being taken out through the knob, but easily screws forward although I did not fully remove it for fear I might undo something not easily redone.

[JohnCBobcat]

Guys who are putting a .30-06 or .308 into the muzzle to check the muzzle erosion, remember:

The Mosin-Nagant (and the SKS and AK-47, for that matter, as well as 7.7mm Japanese and .303 Brit) uses a .311" diameter bullet, not the .308" of the '06 and .308Win.
So don't be surprised if a US-designed .30 caliber bullet doesn't stop on the rifling at the muzzle. Just make sure to use a 7.62x54R cartridge to check the muzzle, since the bullet diameter will be correct.

[Southern Grey]

Re: the tough to turn bolt (while cocking)

I've now disassembled the bolt and have smoothed all mechanical contact surfaces on the bolt and the impingement points on the receiver and the bolt is no easier to open while cocking.

Now I'm wondering about the firing pin adjustment and whether the spring that loads/cushions the firing pin is the correct one or if the pin is simply turned into the spring creating way too much tension and causing the beveled contact faces to bind against one another.

The problem is in the cocking manuever as once the gun is cocked the bolt moves easily.

[Garand69]

Have you compared the spring with the one from the other rifle yet?

[Southern Grey]

No, but I will. That's a wonderful suggestion. I was thinking I was going to have to order a bolt assembly.

[Southern Grey]

I disassembled both bolts and measured the firing pin springs at just contact and no compression. The spring removed from the "binding" bolt measured: 3.649" and the one from the other, smoother operating bolt was: 3.507", but it was not in as good of condition as the longer one.

So I reassembled the bolts swapping the springs and reinstalled the bolts in their respective receivers. Upon reinsertion the "binding" bolt still did and the other bolt worked almost as smoothly, but there was some additional resistance in the initial cocking/opening motion.

Then I exchanged the bolt assemblies. The one that was binding still is and the second rifle now operates nearly as smoothly as it did before I began these tests.

Is anyone aware of any dimensioned drawings that may be available online? I'm certainly beginning to think that the steel receiver is the culprit and before I simply hang this on the wall for decoration, I'd like to know why it failes to operate as it ought.

[Garand69]

Not all countries were blessed with the talents of US war time production

But you have two rifles, one smooth one not. Think about the fun you would have if all you had was the rough one 

Try this. Totally degrease the rifles bolts and receivers and "paint" all of the camming surfaces for cocking, and the locking lugs, with black marker or Dykem blue layout dye. Put the rifles together, minus the springs, and work the bolt once and remove each. Compare the marks on both rifles and deburr/polish/lap/blend the rough working bolt until the marks match the smooth running mosin.

[EEL]

SG,

I recalled that The Shot Gun News did an extended piece on the Nagants.  Looked back and found Gunsmith Reid Coffield did a 8 part piece on sporterizing these rifles.  He has a "ask the gunsmith" section in every issue.

Perhaps you could write to him C/O Shot Gun News for his thoughts.

Hope this might help you get it figured out.

EEL

[Southern Grey]

The camming areas I have polished until they are as smooth as glass with surface conditioning wheels, probably removing .002" from each such face including the pivot on the front face of the bolt section that engages the receiver near the chamber and the other that retains the bolt handle in the horizontal position. The Lubriplate product that I have been using is a great friction reducing compound.

I locked the cocking handle's knob end in a vise and worked the bolt outside of the rifle and it moves (cocks) easily. I'm wondering if the receiver itself has a defect or has been damaged.

Watching a few of the videos on Youtube that show folks using their rifles, I noticed that most have trouble working that bolt and that the need for brute force is the alternative.

Although the suggestions are appreciated and I may yet follow up on them as time allows, I'm wanting to take this puppy to the range on Saturday and check it out, rough bolt action or no.

The other rifle was purchased for my wife. It was made in 1937. If the one that I selected for myself proves a pain to deal with, I'll just hang it on the wall and get another. For $70 it can be a usable rifle or an unique wall ornament. The only loss here is a barrel that appeared to be nearly new as though it may have been carried by the latrine orderly.

[Southern Grey]

In the past few days while keeping the tough to cycle rifle at work and picking it up over the course of the day to go through the sight and dry fire practice, working the bolt literally hundreds of times, it has suddenly gotten easier to operate. It isn't as slick as the others, but it has certainly "loosened up"...sort of like getting grandpa back into shape.

[Southern Grey]

I took our two rifles to the range and put about ten rounds each through them. The rifles performed well, but were consistently about 7 inches high at 25 yards with the rear sight bottomed out.

I've read where the rifling is 1:9.5. What would be the ideal projectile weight to fire then?

I ask because I'm going to get an adequate supply of ammo for my two new shooters and 147gr is $.1875/rd and 180gr is $.25/rd.

I also need to find a deal on some of the good (I've read most of the copy stuff is garbage) 5 round chargers for these guys as single loading a round at a time with the recessed chamber is a serious drag.