Wide front sight post?

[AdobeWalls]

Thank you for the thoughtful comments. This probably is a bit off thread, but my understanding is: 7.62NATO zeroed at 25yds (near zero) crosses the line of sight again at 200yds (far zero). I like shooting squares with iron sights using 6 o'clock hold. But 6 o'clock is a hold not a zero. And seems like a little bit of hold at the near zero will have a big effect at the far zero. So what would that effect actually be, if anyone knows?
Life is quite a lot simpler with an optical sight and crosshair . . . Thx, R

[AdobeWalls]

Now that I've been to a couple KDs, I believe the answer is: "With a 6 o'clock hold at 25m, the bullet will strike the target at any distance 2MOA above the point of aim." And that may be the complete answer.

[jmdavis]

You will need to determine the "exact" zero. But you are correct in that a 6 o'clock hold on squares at 25m will not be a zeroed for a 6 oclock hold on an aqt or 6 moa round target it will be about 2 moa above point of aim. Since you are shooting at a 4 moa square and hitting it in the center.

High power targets are 6 moa bulls. So if you are using a 6 o'clock hold and you are hitting the X ring (.75 to 1.0 moa), you are hitting how high above point of aim?

If you find that your 6 o'clock zero on the squares is costing you points on stage 4 at 25m, the simple solution is to use a line of white hold when you shoot stage 4. That will lower your impacts and you will find more 5's and V's than 4's.

Good luck.

[mjkten]

I really appreciate this thread.  I am going to print it out if I can.  This addresses the issues I had shifting from a scoped 10/22 at 25m to my AR on the kd range. My front sight tended to swim and dim at times.  I need to swallow the pride I felt with the score I shot and either get some special vision help or swap out the carry handle upper for a flat top and some sort of optic.

[ItsanSKS]

He had to break the shot as soon as he reached respiratory pause.  I tried it that day and wound up shooting my best score at 600.

Firing at respiratory pause, aka following Rifleman's Cadence, actually improved your score?  Funny how that works. 

"Fussing The Shot", or trying to ensure an absolutely perfect sight picture prior to squeezing the trigger, is an excellent way to throw shots- either due to a trigger jerk, or as is most often the problem with experienced shooters, eye fatigue.

What you are really doing when you fuss the shot is to change the focus of your eye rapidly between the target and the front sight, as you cannot focus on both at the same time, trying to get a 'perfect' sight picture.  This wears your eyes out, making it difficult to even focus on the front sight, let alone the target. 

Establish a perfect NPOA, then use Rifleman's Cadence. 

RE: 'sliver of white' while using six o'clock hold:
With most iron sighted rifles, the stage 3 silhouettes will be about as big as the front sight, maybe even a little smaller- this means that your front sight is as big, or even bigger than the target, which means that it can easily obscure part of it; a 'proper' six o'clock hold may be impossible to achieve, as it is difficult to differentiate between where the sight stops and the target begins.  This problem is compounded on stage 4, where the targets are even smaller.  The purpose of using the sliver of white hold is to ensure that your front sight has not 'crept up' into the target on stages 3 & 4.  You should consider using the sliver of white hold on all targets that are smaller than the front sight, including the 4 MOA squares.  Not because your zero is wrong (it isn't), but because it is too easy to inadvertently hold higher than 6 o'clock without realizing it- in effect holding (near) center of target, while using a 6 o'clock zero.   

[jmdavis]

Cadence is something that appears to an outside observer. What the shooter should see in prone or sitting is a sight at the exact point of aim when he is in respiratory pause. That's what made VAShooter not drop a single point at 1000 yards in the 1969 shooting season. There is nothing wrong with shooting fast, if you do it right and nothing wrong with shooting slow if you do it right. But the point is to do it right. By the way, his actual process to was to let out his breath, check the sight picture at the target, run his focus back to the front sight and break the shot.

I was at highpower practice last month and being coach by Alex Arrietta. You can look him up but the short version is he is a National Champion and won the Erdman offhand trophy for 1995, both with the M14. Alex was watching me shoot with good breathing and what some might call perfect cadence, but he was also seeing me shoot some 9's at 300 in rapid prone. I finished with 10 seconds on the clock. When he pointed that out to me,  something hit me. I had started highpower thinking that shooting 9's was good. It's not, for me. It's fine if that is the best that you can do. But if you have 65 seconds and only use 55 and wind up with some 9's, you would have been better off to make sure of your hold and take a little more time.

Watch the video below to see what I mean. Does the shooter have a good "cadence?" Some would argue that when you shoot a 100 with 8x in sitting, the "cadence" doesn't matter. Earlier that year 2012, I was watching the shooter on the line at Camp Butner for the Creedmoor Cup. That particular day she shot a 200-17x in sitting setting a new Range Record. The strings looked alot like the one in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI3CNcLDvTs

[ItsanSKS]

jmdavis, I am certain that we have a similar understanding of what Rifleman's Cadence is, though some who read this may not, so allow me to spell it out, thereby ensuring that there is no room for confusion.  A proper understanding of Rifleman's Cadence requires an understanding of related terms, and I will define those as well.

Rifleman's Cadence: Using Natural Point of Aim and the natural breathing cycle to engage the target, firing one round for each breath, at the Respiratory Pause.

Respiratory Pause: The natural lull at end expiration (a natural, unforced exhale).  It is a purposeful pause, allowing the sights and body to settle.

Natural Point of Aim:  Where the relaxed body would place the shot.  AKA: The art of aiming the rifle by adjusting the body position, without using or relying upon muscle input.


In order for Rifleman's Cadence to work, the shooter must A: have a perfect Natural Point of Aim, and B: have established that Natural Point of Aim to achieve their chosen Sight Picture at Respiratory Pause.

[Sly223]

For me it has to be skinny on a 16" I lost some eye sight and can not focus 400m due to short sight radius.
If I want to shoot Iron sights wide blade does not do it!
A wide blade is good for quick CQB and BSZ but beyond that is where Appleseed starts.
Take anyones advice but verify in the feild!

[Agrivere]

For me it has to be skinny on a 16" I lost some eye sight and can not focus 400m due to short sight radius.
If I want to shoot Iron sights wide blade does not do it!
A wide blade is good for quick CQB and BSZ but beyond that is where Appleseed starts.
Take anyones advice but verify in the feild!

Most of the best shooters I know would suggest exactly the opposite, Sly, particularly for those of us who are a bit older and are more prone to eye fatigue and eyesight issues.  I would certainly encourage anyone who is having vision challenges at 400 yards/meters (or beyond) to consider both a wider front sight (0.072 is common for AR15's) and a Center of Mass hold.  These both seem counter intuitive at first, but just to give an example, virtually all of the AMU Service Rifle team uses that configuration, and there are good reasons.

When you first pick up the rifle and start looking through the sights, commonly a 6 O'clock hold and a skinny front sight looks really good.  It looks (and is) usually very precise, and allows a very precise sight picture.  Most of the time we'll start shooting at 100 yards (or 200 yards, if it's a Highpower/CMP course of fire), and scores are good.  For me this usually holds up well through the rapid prone stage.

Several problems can begin to creep in, however.  The first occurs on days where light is variable.  Maybe your target is shaded when the day starts, then the sun comes out.  Or it's one of those days where the sun move behind clouds a lot.  As light levels change, our perception of the target changes, and a 6 O'clock hold can result in significant elevation changes as the light changes.  The old saying is "lights up, sights up".  When the target appears brighter, it also appears bigger to our eyes, and a 6 O'clock hold results in shots hitting the target low.  The biggest issue here is that this "target perception" issue is unpredictable, as it's affected by both light levels and eye fatigue.  Using a center of mass hold is almost always superior to a 6 O'clock hold in any conditions where light levels are changing, as the center of a target is always the center, no matter how big or small it appears to our eyes.  I will certainly grant that this is a bit trickier to accomplish on a AQT target, but it can be done.  Changing from a 6 O'clock hold to a Center of Mass hold had a huge improvement in my scores.

The second challenge with the skinny post, and where the wide front sight really shines is simply the fact that it's easier to focus on that big massive front sight.  Focusing on the front sight is critical to good shot placement, and that big fat front sight is just easier for our eyes to focus on.  This it one that seems counter intuitive, because when you first pick up the rifle the skinny front sight sure seems more "precise", but you'll find eye fatigue to increase faster with the skinny front sight as your eyes are working harder to focus on it.

The third concern, very much related to the first two, is eye fatigue.  Most courses of fire start up close and move back, and many shooters find their problems at 400/600/1000 yards are simply due to eye fatigue.  As our eyes get tired, it's harder and harder to get a good sight picture, and for me sometimes the target simply fades away at 600 yards.  Most of the time it's a slightly blurry blob.  A 6 O'clock hold on a blurry blob is a formula for disaster, as it's nearly impossible to have a consistent line of white when the target is fuzzy.  Similarly, as our eyes get tired we start to lose the edges of the front sight.  Many shooters may not even realize it's happening, but tired eyes will first start to lose the corners of the sight, and soon the very tip of the front sight (the important part) will start to fade.  You might not even notice it's happening, but the target will tell you.  Elevation issues will be the result.  Again, the wider front sight is simply easier to focus on, and even if our eyes get tired and we start to lose the corners of the wide front sight, there's a lot more sight there, and the center of the tip (again, the important part) will stay in focus much longer.

It's important when making a change in sight width or sight picture to give it a good test.  All too often I see shooters who have been doing things one way for months or years try another way for a day and decide it doesn't work for them.  The real issue is often they just need more time to get used to the new way, and once they have more time and practice with a new sight picture or sight width they can make a better comparison.

There certainly are no hard and fast rules, and what works for one shooter may not work so well for another, but the experience of champion shooters would suggest that for the vast majority of us a wide front sight and a center of mass hold is ultimately superior.

[Agrivere]

In order for Rifleman's Cadence to work, the shooter must A: have a perfect Natural Point of Aim, and B: have established that Natural Point of Aim to achieve their chosen Sight Picture at Respiratory Pause.

While I would certainly agree that using a cadence is a valuable training tool for new shooters, I would suggest that experienced shooters will improve their scores if they abandon the idea of a cadence.  What experienced shooters will do may LOOK to an observer as though they are firing to a cadence, they are in fact actually not.

Here's what I mean.  The idea of establishing natural point of aim and then firing in your respiratory pause is certainly correct.  But it ignores several issues that may be important to increasing scores in rapid fire stages.

The first is that the NPA may move over the course of the string.  The is certainly true for me when firing a 30 caliber rifle like a Garand.  I'm a smallish guy, and that rifle will push me around over the course of 10 shots.  Getting caught up in using a cadence will entice the shooter to make small adjustments using muscle tension, which naturally causes shots to go awry.  Better scores will result if the shooter takes a second or two between shots to make slight adjustments to NPA if needed.  This may look like Rifleman's Cadence to an observer, but it is in fact not.

The second issue that comes up is even with lighter rifles, AR15's and .22's, positions may deteriorate over the course of a strong.  I've had a few targets where my first few shots are nicely centered, then toward the end of the string they fade toward 4:00.  This was due to my right elbow moving over the course of a string.  There are many small ways a position may break down over the course of a string, but if one gets too caught up in shooting to a cadence they may be overlooked.

A third issue which I've encountered when shooting to a cadence, especially in the sitting position, is pulse.  I usually have at least a minute of pulse when sitting, and sometimes more.  If you shoot to a cadence, and ignore the pulse, you'll see it on the target.  If instead of shooting to a cadence you shoot to sight picture, you can shoot at the same point in your pulse and eliminate most if not all of the vertical string from pulse.

So the better suggestion I would have for experienced shooters is one that was given to me by a member of the All Guard shooting team.  Simply breath between each shot, and shoot to sight picture.  When the sights are aligned, break the shot.  If they are not, make the necessary correction and then break the shot.  If your NPA is excellent and no other issues are occurring, this will be identical to a cadence.  If, however, some of these other issues do occur during a string, or for whatever reason your sight picture isn't what it needs to be, don't get so caught up in a cadence that you ignore what the sights are telling you.

The following is a video from last weekend's Confederate Nationals that shows exactly what I mean.  The video is of Brandon Green from the AMU shooting a 10X clean at 200 yards.  At first look it may seem like he's shooting to a cadence, but if you watch more closely you'll see that he pauses anywhere from 2-5 seconds between shots.  Many of his shots are in cadence, but if the sights aren't where he wants them to be, he makes a correction and then breaks the shot.

Rapid Fire Sitting

This was one of the few pieces of Appleseed training that I had to "unlearn" as I started shooting more, so I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Shooter30-06]

Good thread.  At my Level 1 NRA Coaching certification last January, Joe Miller (a Level 3 Coach) confirmed what ItsanSKS said above about eye fatigue being a big issue if shots are delayed more than a few seconds.  Experienced shooters were encouraged to break focus to avoid fatigue.  With regard to breathing, Joe was recommending a two breath cycle with the first breath being normal to heavy and the second breath being shallow.  He had diagrams showing the "tremor" of the shooter being vastly reduced after the second, shallow breath.  My experience dry firing and at the range seems to confirm the benefit of the second breath.

The problem with the above is that these are advanced techniques  and are difficult for a more novice shooter to absorb.  At the usual AS event, I have difficulty getting many shooters to even remember to exhale before firing or firing before the diaphragm has completely settled.  In the usual instance teaching a shooter to fire with a one breath cadence comes closest to allowing them to avoid the eye fatigue while at the same time firing the shot at respiratory pause.  However, if I run into an experienced and sophisticated shooter trying to refine his/her results, then I might make some suggested refinements.  I try hard to work with a student at his/her level of ability.

[ItsanSKS]

The first is that the NPA may move over the course of the string.  The is certainly true for me when firing a 30 caliber rifle like a Garand.  I'm a smallish guy, and that rifle will push me around over the course of 10 shots.  Getting caught up in using a cadence will entice the shooter to make small adjustments using muscle tension, which naturally causes shots to go awry.  Better scores will result if the shooter takes a second or two between shots to make slight adjustments to NPA if needed.  This may look like Rifleman's Cadence to an observer, but it is in fact not.
(snip)
The second issue that comes up is even with lighter rifles, AR15's and .22's, positions may deteriorate over the course of a strong. [sic]  I've had a few targets where my first few shots are nicely centered, then toward the end of the string they fade toward 4:00.  This was due to my right elbow moving over the course of a string.  There are many small ways a position may break down over the course of a string, but if one gets too caught up in shooting to a cadence they may be overlooked.
(snip)
If your NPA is excellent and no other issues are occurring, this will be identical to a cadence.  If, however, some of these other issues do occur during a string, or for whatever reason your sight picture isn't what it needs to be, don't get so caught up in a cadence that you ignore what the sights are telling you.

(emphasis mine)

Agrivere, it appears that you missed the first requirement for using Rifeman's Cadence: A PERFECT Natural Point of Aim.  If your position has deteriorated, then your NPOA has shifted, thus breaking your cadence.

Even when a shooter is using Rifleman's Cadence (and they should ALWAYS use Rifleman's Cadence) they aught not disregard the rest of the Six Steps & Steady Hold Factors.  If, for whatever reason, their NPOA shifts unintentionally, then the shooter must re-establish their NPOA, and resume firing by the numbers.   

With regards to the position breaking down due to recoil:
Generally, this occurs due to a failure in the Steady Hold Factors.  If you find that your trigger elbow in prone is shifting around, you need to pull it in closer to your body, to get more weight on top of it.  If the rifle is shifting in the shoulder pocket, the Firm Handshake Grip should be pulling the rifle Smartly into the shoulder pocket. 

In prone, the only muscle input on the rifle should be the trigger hand pulling the rifle into the shoulder.  The sling alone is woefully inadequate for this, as 10/22 and Garand shooters alike can attest.   There is a fine line between the muscle input required to hold the rifle in position, and too much muscle input.  With the Garand, I find that pulling the rifle in until my hand begins to tremble, then slowly releasing that tension until the tremble stops, is right for me.  Adding 'stickum' or sandpaper, or other traction-enhancing articles to the butt stock of a rifle, or to the shooting jacket itself, to reduce slippage in the shoulder pocket, is an effort to mitigate a SHF failure. 

The rules may allow such things in competition, but that does not mean they are necessary.   

At my Level 1 NRA Coaching certification last January, Joe Miller (a Level 3 Coach) confirmed what ItsanSKS said above about eye fatigue being a big issue if shots are delayed more than a few seconds.

When we teach Respiratory Pause, we must also include the proviso that it should not be an overly-extended pause;  pause no longer than 2-3 seconds.  If you have not broken the shot, maintain trigger pressure and restart the (natural) respiratory cycle.

A too-long respiratory pause usually indicates an NPOA that isn't adjusted properly, thus forcing the shooter to attempt fine adjustments to their POA prior to breaking the shot.  This extended period of intense focus will very rapidly cause eye fatigue.  This is typically a failure to properly establish NPOA in the first place.

For this reason, I advise all shooters to routinely practice acquiring NPOA at home during dry fire sessions- have a partner toss small objects that the shooter must then 'engage'.  This practice builds the muscle memory and eye-body coordination that is necessary for rapidly establishing a proper NPOA.

Joe was recommending a two breath cycle with the first breath being normal to heavy and the second breath being shallow.

With all due respect to Joe, I only recommend using the natural breath, for a number of reasons.
1. The natural (relaxed) breath is typically very shallow; this induces the minimal deviation to sight picture while breathing.
2. A forced breath of *any* type, is impossible to duplicate.  Being consistent in ones methodology is the key to achieving small groups.
3. Taking a deep breath sympathetically increases the heart rate.  A high heart rate induces unwanted movement in the sights. 

Now, when we are working with students at an Appleseed, in order to get them to use Respiratory Pause, we must usually first get them to control their breathing.  Due to the pace of our course, the unfamiliar positions, and overall physical fitness of Americans in general, the likelihood of a first-time attendee being able to settle into a natural breath cycle behind their rifle is about slim-to-none.  In order to accomplish this, they first need to accomplish a relaxed position, and most of our students are incapable of relaxing in prone- it is too foreign, and too uncomfortable.  If one is struggling to relax, they are going to struggle to achieve any semblance of a normal (sinusoidal) breath cycle.

Controlled breathing is preferable to uncontrolled breathing, and will allow a shooter to achieve the 4 MOA standard, but a natural sinusoidal rhythm should ultimately be the goal, and is attainable for most shooters simply by becoming familiar (comfortable) with the position.  Teaching breath control as we do is also useful for instances where the respiratory rate has increased due to physical exertion.

[Sly223]

I know I read the thread thats why I said for Me!
Feild tested by me for me!

[jmdavis]

While I would certainly agree that using a cadence is a valuable training tool for new shooters, I would suggest that experienced shooters will improve their scores if they abandon the idea of a cadence.  What experienced shooters will do may LOOK to an observer as though they are firing to a cadence, they are in fact actually not.

Here's what I mean.  The idea of establishing natural point of aim and then firing in your respiratory pause is certainly correct.  But it ignores several issues that may be important to increasing scores in rapid fire stages.

I think I've heard that somewhere. :-)

I'll be blunt about it, I don't and didn't teach a cadence. Part of the reason for that was something that I saw even among experienced instructors in KD. They were firing to a cadence or time and not a sight picture, particularly in slow fire. They were all over the target because they were more worried about firing in 3 seconds than in firing to a sight picture at respiratory pause. I do teach that we fire with the natural respiratory cycle and that after 7 seconds or so the vision starts to dim.

What is also true is that sometimes what we see when we hold too long is not something that actually exists. By this I mean that sometimes as the vision fades an image may appear better than it really is and a shot at that moment will not be a good thing. For me itsansks is right about the 2-3 seconds, or maybe 2-5 seconds. If I don't break the shot, I start the process for that shot over. including releasing the slack on the trigger and checking the feel of my position.

What should also be understood, is that my focus with this discussion is iron sights and competitive shooting. I want a wide front sight (.072), a medium wide rear aperture for overcast days (.046) and a slightly smaller one for BRIGHT days (.042). On the worst days I may pull out a .052 rear hood if that is what it takes to get the best front sight view.

[Agrivere]

Agrivere, it appears that you missed the first requirement for using Rifeman's Cadence: A PERFECT Natural Point of Aim.  If your position has deteriorated, then your NPOA has shifted, thus breaking your cadence.

I think we're mostly saying the same thing.  You're saying that if the NPOA shifts unintentionally, you must re-establish it, which I certainly agree with.  I'm saying that there is no such thing as PERFECT NPOA, and that because our bodies are constantly making small movements, our NPOA will ALWAYS change, at least a little, from shot to shot.  Whether that is an amount that matters enough to make an adjustment is a question that can only be answered by what we see in the sights.

I think the video I linked of Brandon Green shooting (and he is without question one of the top position shooters in the country) demonstrates this very well.  He is shooting to sight picture, without any thought or concern about any sort of cadence.  If he needs to make a tiny (imperceptible to us on the video) adjustment, he does so, then shoots.  If he does not, then he just shoots.  When the sights are aligned, he shoots.  He shoots to sight picture.

Since we're saying almost exactly the same thing, why split hairs?  If you're ever read Lanny Basham's book With Winning In Mind, you'll understand the risk of getting too wrapped around a cadence.  If we program our subconscious to shoot to a cadence, it's far more likely that we'll find ourselves blazing away without even realizing we should have been making small corrections along the way.  I've certainly finished a string, especially in rapid fire, and the target told me things I didn't see in the sights.  When that happens, it's almost always an error in my subconscious program (like shooting to a cadence instead of shooting to sight picture), which didn't allow me to even SEE the error that was occurring.  Even though the distinction is subtle, if experienced shooters (note I'm not remotely suggesting this for a new shooter) train our subconscious to shoot to sight picture, without any concern for cadence, our shots will improve.

I would not suggest that Appleseed teach anything like this, as this is certainly an advanced topic, but for those shooters who are more experienced and would like to improve their marksmanship further, this is the sort of thing that good scores into cleans.

With regards to the position breaking down due to recoil:
Generally, this occurs due to a failure in the Steady Hold Factors.  If you find that your trigger elbow in prone is shifting around, you need to pull it in closer to your body, to get more weight on top of it.  If the rifle is shifting in the shoulder pocket, the Firm Handshake Grip should be pulling the rifle Smartly into the shoulder pocket.

I certainly would agree with this, but I think it also has something to do with 2800 ft-lbs of force from a 30-06 rifle bullet and my 160 pound frame.  I'm sure if I shot my Garand more I would develop a better position that would withstand that recoil better, and my shots would improve with that rifle.  Also doesn't change the fact that a rifle like that will physically MOVE a small person, no matter how steady your hold factors.  It can literally push you across the ground, and short of staking myself to the ground, I'm not sure there's much that can be done about that.