AK Accuracy Suggestions?

[slim]

I've been shooting my AK for a while now (Romanian AKMS, typically shoot with Wolf or Tula) and just can't seem to be consistent with it. I shot three shots under one marker from sitting at 200 yards and put up a 3 MOA group at 500 yards so I've seen it be way more accurate than the internet says is possible.

But then, I'll go to the range and it'll shoot a round way off to the right, another on target and then two or three will be in a group way too high. It throws rounds. It sends 'em low. It sends 'em high. Then it'll drill three or four dead center. Then they're off again. The zero never seems to be in the same place. It just doesn't seem to want to put every single round where I aim.

Is that just an AK being an AK? Is that just what happens when I use "match grade Tula" from Walmart?

I thought maybe my cheekweld was inconsistent so I put a kisser button on there (in true Soviet fashion I duct taped a rock to the stock) and shot some good groups... that would have a flyer here and there. One group would be too high. One too low. One with a shot to the right.

Just weird.

Have I reached the accuracy capacity of a stock AK? I'd really like to keep any fixes simple (and cheap!). From what I can gather, some type of longer sight radius and/or optic is the most simple way and then a brake/compensator on the muzzle. American (expensive) ammo is a "fix" I've heard of as well.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I know we have a couple AK gurus on here. Anyone have a consistent shooter and if so, what did you do?

[jmdavis]

Get some reloadable brass, the dies,  and develop an accurate load. The problems that I have seen have always been related to ammo. While Wolf is better than the old surplus, it likely won't compete with a well developed load.

I have a friend who had a rifle that would consistently shoot .75 moa with Gold Metal Match. His handloads in that same rifle would shoot .175 inches (in a .308) at 100 yards. If you want the AK to be an accurate (and consistent) gun you need to control the variables better than you can with commercial or surplus ammo.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?newcategorydimensionid=20220

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/740806/lee-pacesetter-3-die-set-762x39mm?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[ItsanSKS]

I agree with jmdavis.

My first SKS could barely hold a 4-5 moa group with Wolf or Brown Bear.  Silver Bear 154gr soft point ammo was GREAT, but you can't find it anywhere.   

I tried every ammo I could find, and never could consistently keep a good group.

The I started reloading.

Sub-2moa groups were easy. 

Why the problems with factory ammo?

Consistency.  Most commercial ammo that I tested ran extreme spreads of over 200 fps out of the same box of ammo.  Bullet weights varied by as much as 7 grains, powder charges varied by 2-3 full grains.  This includes Winchester and Remington 7.62x39.

Nobody (aside from Riflemen) expects accuracy and consistency from 7.62x39, so the manufacturers don't concern themselves with it.

[ItsanSKS]

Find some Yugoslavian surplus ammo.  That was the most accurate loading I'd found on the market.  Followed closely by Golden Tiger.  GL!

[509gman]

If you don't want to reload (which isn't gonna save you any money over Tula or silver bear) weigh your ammo, grouping by grain weight (253 grains in one pile, 252 grains in another). I think I saw variations in weight in one box of tweny of as much as six or eight grains between the lightest to heaviest. I just tested it out this weekend in my sks. The groups were about the same 6ish MOA, but the weighed ammo did not have the wild flyers. It's not an "accuracy" upgrade as much as a consistency one. I still want to reload for my sks for shiggles, but weighing is the cheap answer.

[Mudcat]

If you don't want to reload (which isn't gonna save you any money over Tula or silver bear) weigh your ammo, grouping by grain weight (253 grains in one pile, 252 grains in another). I think I saw variations in weight in one box of tweny of as much as six or eight grains between the lightest to heaviest. I just tested it out this weekend in my sks. The groups were about the same 6ish MOA, but the weighed ammo did not have the wild flyers. It's not an "accuracy" upgrade as much as a consistency one. I still want to reload for my sks for shiggles, but weighing is the cheap answer.

This will make a huge improvement in group size.

[MostlyHarmless]

(in true Soviet fashion I duct taped a rock to the stock)

Comrade, Russian would never use duct tape on rifle like this. You use duct tape, this mean you think like imperialist. Kalashnikov will not make small group for you.

[DEH]

I went through same thing with one of my AKs.  I did a batch of reloads using 125 Gr Sierra.  The groups tightened up significantly;  however, I still had flyers and wandering zeroes 

I ruled out software issues and my conclusion is the wandering zeroes are due to the rifle heating up.  It has a thin barrel and on top it has that sheet metal gas tube that heats up even faster than the barrel.  Think about what an elongating gas tube on top will do to a barrel.

I also came to the conclusion that the flyers were a result of the AKs gas system being inconsistent.  I have no evidence for this.  It's just a guess.

Of course it may be that your rifle was made on a Monday or Friday.

[grunt soldier]

Is this the under folder we shot at atterbury slim?  If so I bet that is a big part of it. They are horrible on the cheek weld even with your high speed kisser button.

The weighting your factory rounds is the next best option to rolling your own.  It takes a a lot less time but will definitely make a huge difference. I have all mine separated in bags with it marked on them. 

[slim]

It is the same rifle.

Thanks for the tips, guys. I'll try weighing first and see how that does. Report back here in a few weeks.

[MandyMonstar]

I'm with Grunt on this one.  The under-folding stock is no good for maintaining a cheek weld.  That would explain tight groups with inconsistent placement.  Flyers appear as the ammo itself isn't consistent enough to be able to maintain the accuracy you want.

On the other hand, it's Romanian, which could also be the problem.  Upgrading to a Pole or a 74 is a simple fix, but I wouldn't call it a cheap one. 

[Big John]

My couple cents.

Check out the rifle for anything that fits poorly or loosely and can have variance. Like
suggested, a fixed stock will help, both for cheek weld but also flexing around.
Check out your front sling mount too to make sure it can't vary. If there's any
burrs on the rails or carrier or rough spots on the bolt lugs, it may do to polish them.
The AK is a loose rifle. A loose rifle can shoot well provided it bangs into battery
the exact same way. Those are fix the rifle for the rifle fixes. Loose handguards too.

I'll assume this is an AK with a pistol grip and doesn't have the Saiga style sporterized
trigger relocation for use without a pistol grip, because those are horrible triggers until
you convert. It's possible to make an AK trigger in the stock "right" location be better,
but I assume it's not your problem here and is good enough.

Get a couple boxes of good western 7.62x39. American Eagle has some, so does Fiocchi.
See if that changes anything.

Lastly, just for checking out the rifle, shoot sandbagged bench, no sling for a couple strings to rule
out variations in prone and sling use. This is just for rifle diagnostics, of course.

[jmdavis]

The problem with weighing complete rounds is that you don't know which component is causing the problem. A difference of 2gr in powder will have more of an effect than a difference of 2gr in bullet weight or case weight.



For 1-2 moa accuracy in an AR people are satisfied with +-.1gr of powder. For high power most people don't weigh cases or bullets.

[Kosciusko]

perhaps not economically feasible, or ballistically desirable,  but consider:

Radom Archer   in 5.56x45

http://archerrifle.com/michael-bane-reviews-archer-rifle-io-inc/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djeam0giA2I


I've handled one.  Possibly the best  AK ever made.

The only reason I don't own one is the cost, right around $1000  .  I may try to make a deal w/ the pawn shop and trade in a couple WASRs for an Archer.

There is a youtube review where the factory claims 1 MOA. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QflEPjMRIfg

I've seen video of an informal bench session off a sandbag that yielded 1.5 MOA,  shooting   5 rounds of US milsurp

[SteelThunder]

Watching the guts of an AK bounce around the way they do in slow motion, I've always been amazed that you can get 4-5 MOA out of them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_sNDTdKQNVU&ei=WoOgU532A5akqAaPhIDICw&usg=AFQjCNFOV5I9_s8A5ek7Dn9TQcFsZK4sZA&sig2=WWehPxq7YHcgnGPMkYHVOA

[509gman]

I ruled out software issues and my conclusion is the wandering zeroes are due to the rifle heating up.  It has a thin barrel and on top it has that sheet metal gas tube that heats up even faster than the barrel.  Think about what an elongating gas tube on top will do to a barrel.

I have heard of ppl grinding the gas tube down enough to prevent this, they said the got more consistent poi. I did notice the vertical stringing after three or four 10 round strings in close succession on the sks as well.

[slim]

I think you guys are correct with the heating up but even then it's inconsistent. My cold bore zero is never in exactly the same spot it was last time. I've even "water cooled" the barrel a few times (flushed it out and drenched it with cold water immediately after shooting) and it doesn't seem to matter. I would reckon once it's hot it would find it's "warm zero" but it must be fluctuating so quickly it doesn't hold steady.

All in all, I've been pretty happy with the accuracy. I've been shooting with that underfolder stock and no sling. It's easily "minute of man" all the way out there and one of those shots will find it's mark. Just have to be sure to shoot more than once!

I have a RPK (AES-10B) and it's stupid accurate like an AR. I'm thinking for a "Rifleman's AK" that's the way to go. Maybe cut off the bipod and get a good sling mount on there with better stocks. Sidemount scope rail seems to hold a good zero even with my cheap red dot. Pretty cool platform right there.

Thanks for the tips and advice, folks. I truly believe this is one of the platforms we'll start seeing a lot more of in the near future as we get "new shooters" out to our events. (Computer voice) "It says on the internet I need an AK-47 or an AR-15. I cannot afford an AR-15 so I bought this WASR-10. I want to shoot sub-moa groups at 1000 yards. How do I do that with this Tula ammo?"

HUZZAH!!!   

[olefido]

Here's a wild thought. Can you take the stock of the RPK and put it on the AK? I don't know if this is mechanically possible. I am not familiar with the AK beyond basic load, aim, and fire. If I was going to have an AK, I would like to have it with an RPK type stock that matches the wood on the foregrip and a western standard LOP.

[slim]

I actually want to keep the folding stock on this particular rifle.

Undoubtedly cheekweld is part of the overall problem but even in a multiple shot string of fire there are inconsistencies unrelated to cheekweld. I shouldn't get three or four good shots and then a flyer high and right followed by a few more good shots and then a flyer way off to the left.

Seems like my issues are pretty common to the AK platform. Just wanted to confirm that with those of you who were more experienced with them. And for those of you new to the AK, get on it! It's a splendid rifle. 

[Charles McKinley]

Build one out of a shovel!  Sadly the pictures and the commentary are no longer one on Northeast Shooter (I think.)  That was a fun post to read.  If you sent a message to them they may be able to help you out.  It seemed to be a ver AK oriented crowd.

[Mudcat]

I had an Ultimac on mine and had it spaced so as to not hit the gas block or front trunnion so it would not get hot and expand therefore pushing the barrel down. This worked very well  with both a 47 and a 74. Weighing and sorting the ammo by weight makes a huge difference, the Yugo brass cased surplus ammo was some of the best I shot or weighed. Having pulled several rounds down and weighing the powder and bullet separately I found that the bullet has the largest variance, powder was surprisingly consistent. Now there are some that will say the stamped receiver if not properly heat treated  will expand and react differently that a properly heat treated receiver. I of course have never proven or even tried to prove either way but the ones saying it are some of the better builders out there. They of course say that the cheaper rifles tend to have a higher ratio of improperly heat treated receivers. Who knows but I do notice that a Arsenal or a quality kit built rifle shoots better than my cheap Century built rifles. They tend to shoot tighter groups too and are not as greatly effected by temp. But I would try sorting the ammo by weight and see where that gets you. I believe it will get you where you are wanting to go. Does the rifle in question have a US barrel or....?

[dond]

I have a Romanian 47 but it doesn't have a folding stock. It also has an Ultimak. It gets good groups out to 200 yards, then at 300 and beyond it gets some in the right spot, but then flyers begin with Tiger ammo. I have another brand of 47 with an under folder. It is much easier to get a good cheekweld if you put some pipe insulation on the folder. You can also do some filing on the sling attachment at the front in order to get a swivel through it so you can use a loop sling.

[509gman]

Guess an rpk will be the next evil empire weapon for me. Is that what the vepr is made out of?

[SPQR]

Slim is never going to reload so he might as well weigh the rounds.

[slim]

^^^That is correct!

[MandyMonstar]

perhaps not economically feasible, or ballistically desirable,  but consider:

Radom Archer   in 5.56x45

Like I said, upgrade to a Pole.   The Archer is by far the nicest AK I've seen, and it is the best 'screw your cold war' rifle if you get the mag adapter.  Who doesn't want an AK in 5.56 that takes STANAG mags?

[MostlyHarmless]

Who doesn't want an AK in 5.56 that takes STANAG mags?

Yeah, love my Sig 556. 

[2 clicks low]

The easiest way to improve the AK is to get the CMP M1. Costs about $650 but well worth the money and will definitely improve your groups.
2cl

[jmdavis]

The M1 is not the be all and end all of firearms. Nor is the AK, AR series, or M14. Different people shoot different guns well.

Back in 2009 Boltgun71 ran the first military Appleseed with a group of soldiers who would be tasked with SDM duties in Afghanistan. The were using M4's with Acogs. At the end of a week that combined Appleseed and AMU methods, the soldiers shot out to 700 yards and had a 69% first shot hit rate to that distance. I believe that the total ammo loadout per man was 250 rounds for that week.

[fisherdawg]

The M1 is not the be all and end all of firearms. Nor is the AK, AR series, or M14. Different people shoot different guns well.

Back in 2009 Boltgun71 ran the first military Appleseed with a group of soldiers who would be tasked with SDM duties in Afghanistan. The were using M4's with Acogs. At the end of a week that combined Appleseed and AMU methods, the soldiers shot out to 700 yards and had a 69% first shot hit rate to that distance. I believe that the total ammo loadout per man was 250 rounds for that week.

  The M1A is not the be all and end all of Rifleman Rifle's?    Who knew, but you better not let Boston T. Party or Fred in that secret!    (he said with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Maybe the AR in 6.5 Grendel? 
(Said the Man with CMP M1 Special in .308 Win -- with a handle like fisherdawg, you know it's got to be different, right?)

In a serious vein, the info on the Mil Seed taking M4 / ACOG combo out to 700 points to the fact that few of us really take our rifles out to their full potential.  Makes me want to get after it, yessir!