It's time to finally upgrade my old 10/22

[Frost]

I have a stock Ruger 10/22 that I bought about 15 or 16 years ago. It's a stainless steel carbine model with synthetic stock.

I've now gotten the Appleseed itch and plan to upgrade that rifle before I attend my first Appleseed.

I plan on changing out the stock to the Ghillie tan hogue over molded stock. Replace the sights with the TSR100 tech sights. And finally add the single stage KIDD complete trigger group (1.5 LB trigger) with the medium magazine release. Lastly, replace the recoil buffer with a Volquartsen.

Does that sound like I have everything covered? The stock rear sight....I just leave it there when I install the tech sights correct? The KIDD trigger group will fit an older 10/22 like mine right?

[mac66]

Sounds like you got everything covered. Trigger and all are good to go. You will need a sling, swivels etc to sling up.  If your rifle doesn't have an extended mag release you might want to consider getting one, makes it a bit easier to drop mags. A cheap plastic one is fine.  Another suggestion that is strictly a matter of preference is the auto bolt release. It is easy to modify your stock one with a file or dremel or buy one.  Makes manipulation/release of the bolt easier.

Oh, and welcome to the program   

[Mark Davis]

The tech sights should come as a pair. Their line of sight is higher than the stock sights, so do not work so well with factory sights.
The kidd trigger group will fit your rifle, perhaps you should wait on that because appleseed style shooting is easier with a 2 stage trigger. Make sure the single stage is what you want. Big investment, cry once.
The houge stock with it's higher comb will help raise your eye to the higher line of sight, and will be compatabile with a scope should you decide later it's needed due to vision problems.

[MostlyHarmless]

Don't need to mess with that barrel mounted rear sight. Tech Sights are taller, and are well above the axis of the factory sights.

That being said, many people find that the Tech Sights are high enough that many stocks (like the Hogue over mounded) aren't tall enough to offer a good cheek weld. You may need a stock comb riser or cheek pad for it to be right. With that combination, I often add a 1/4" rigid plastic Magpul cheek riser, held in place with vet wrap. With it, students usually report and demonstrate a dramatic improvement in fit and performance.

That trigger group is a complete, enclosed unit, right? You should have no trouble matching it to your receiver.

Make sure you have the auto bolt release also- I'm guessing that's included in the Kidd trigger?

[Frost]

The KIDD trigger group should come with the auto bolt release and extended magazine release so I would be covered with those. The sling and swivels i plan to buy off the store here.

Mark, I know the tech sights will be taller than the rear sight and that the front sight would be replaced. Sorry I wasn't clearer. I was just wondering if it's common to leave the stock rear one on the barrel or if it comes off easy?

I don't believe I've ever shot a two stage trigger....

[mac66]

Personally I take the factory rear sight off my rifles with Tech Sights on them. They just bang out of the dove tail slot.

[Frost]

Don't need to mess with that barrel mounted rear sight. Tech Sights are taller, and are well above the axis of the factory sights.

That being said, many people find that the Tech Sights are high enough that many stocks (like the Hogue over mounded) aren't tall enough to offer a good cheek weld.

Oh.....well that may change things then. Any ideas for a similar stock with a comb more compatable with the tech sights?

[Mark Davis]

M-1s, M-1As, and and many AR's have two stage triggers, all it means is that there is some trigger movement to the rear before meeting more restitance and engaging the sear.
Some people do not like it but some feel more steady with light pressure on the trigger as they focus on the front sight.
I have a two stage trigger by kidd and think highly of it.
By it self the kidd trigger was nice, but racking the bolt with the hammer down was tougher than with a stock trigger group, down the rabbit hole I went, got a kidd bolt it has a radius on the bottom rear that is more friendly to the kidd hammer that it must cock on it's rearward travel. Might as well, while supporting kidd get the spring and guide rod.
Doing the whole kidd conversion gets expensive, your stock trigger will get you through many an appleseed.

[FiremanBob]

While you're ordering from Kidd anyway, get the Kidd bolt buffer. It's better and less expensive than the VQ. A neighbor just installed that trigger group in a recent 10/22 workshop I conducted. It's the sweetest trigger I've ever tried on a semi-auto firearm.

Remember, when you remove the OEM front sight, that it goes out from the left side of the rifle to the right. The dovetail is actually tapered, and if you try to do it in the wrong direction (1) it will be much harder; and (2) you'll damage the dovetail slot on the barrel.

There are no inexpensive alternative stocks in the traditional sporter style that have a raised comb. The "space gun" style stocks almost all have high combs because they are designed for use with scopes. The TS sight is not as high as a scope. You'll be able to shoot fine with the Hogue, but you'll have more of a "jaw weld" than a cheek. That doesn't stop my wife from shooting Rifleman every time out.

[MostlyHarmless]

Oh.....well that may change things then. Any ideas for a similar stock with a comb more compatable with the tech sights?

Tech Sights occupy a bit of a no man's land between stocks sold for the factory irons, and stocks sold for scopes. There are probably very few stocks made that work well out of the box for a TS height sight system.

The problem is even more complicated in that there is significant fit variation between individual shooters. A rifle set up for me is too low for my wife to use. (The moment she got a setup that fit her, she easily and repeatedly smoked my AQT scores- and she'd been unable to break 200 otherwise. A leather cheek pad on her rifle was all it took.)

The best real world solution is to find a stock that you like (Hogue overmolded is an excellent option), and add padding/risers as you need. "Carding the sights" will tell you if the stock fits you as it should, or if you need a higher (or lower) comb.

Another option (depending on your ambition and woodworking skills) might be to make your own custom stock. There are a number of unfinished wooden stocks for the 10/22 (like the Boyd Tacticool).



This one has a comb designed to be used with a scope, and is likely higher than Tech Sights require. Work the comb height down to just where you want it, and you have your own custom fit rifle.

There are easy solutions and complicated solutions. No rifle can fit everyone (same reason cars have adjustable seats)- so it's a matter of finding the solution you like best.

[ItsanSKS]

Good god men.  Look at what you are recommending!

Kidd this, Kidd that, new stock this, modify that.

By then end of this, he'd have spent enough money to have bought an M1 Garand from the CMP!

The factory trigger on a Ruger 10/22 is typically about 8-10#; not great, but serviceable.  Most AR-15 triggers are in the same range from the factory. 
The factory bolt release takes some getting used to, but is no real challenge at all - I've taught eight year old children how to use it. 
The factory sights are sub-optimal, but work - plenty of Rifleman scores have been earned while using the factory sights.

The 10/22, right out of the box, *needs* but one modification: sling studs and a proper sling. 

Stop spending money to end up with a 'perfect' 10/22.   Get a sling mounted to that rifle and run it.  Learn how to master that rifle, with all its faults.  When you become a 4 MOA shooter with a box-stock Ruger 10/22, step up to a centerfire rifle, and work towards 4 MOA with that.  Use the money you've saved by NOT modifying the 10/22, to pay for center fire ammo.

[Unbridled Liberty]

Good god men.  Look at what you are recommending!

Kidd this, Kidd that, new stock this, modify that.

By then end of this, he'd have spent enough money to have bought an M1 Garand from the CMP!

The factory trigger on a Ruger 10/22 is typically about 8-10#; not great, but serviceable.  Most AR-15 triggers are in the same range from the factory. 
The factory bolt release takes some getting used to, but is no real challenge at all - I've taught eight year old children how to use it. 
The factory sights are sub-optimal, but work - plenty of Rifleman scores have been earned while using the factory sights.

The 10/22, right out of the box, *needs* but one modification: sling studs and a proper sling. 

Stop spending money to end up with a 'perfect' 10/22.   Get a sling mounted to that rifle and run it.  Learn how to master that rifle, with all its faults.  When you become a 4 MOA shooter with a box-stock Ruger 10/22, step up to a centerfire rifle, and work towards 4 MOA with that.  Use the money you've saved by NOT modifying the 10/22, to pay for center fire ammo.

/\ This right here. 

Although I would be inclined to add the Tech Sights too, but not necessary.  The best upgrade for any rifle is a Rifleman behind the buttplate.  It's the Indian, not the bow. 

UL

[Frost]

Good god men.  Look at what you are recommending!

Kidd this, Kidd that, new stock this, modify that.

By then end of this, he'd have spent enough money to have bought an M1 Garand from the CMP!

The factory trigger on a Ruger 10/22 is typically about 8-10#; not great, but serviceable.  Most AR-15 triggers are in the same range from the factory. 
The factory bolt release takes some getting used to, but is no real challenge at all - I've taught eight year old children how to use it. 
The factory sights are sub-optimal, but work - plenty of Rifleman scores have been earned while using the factory sights.

The 10/22, right out of the box, *needs* but one modification: sling studs and a proper sling. 

Stop spending money to end up with a 'perfect' 10/22.   Get a sling mounted to that rifle and run it.  Learn how to master that rifle, with all its faults.  When you become a 4 MOA shooter with a box-stock Ruger 10/22, step up to a centerfire rifle, and work towards 4 MOA with that.  Use the money you've saved by NOT modifying the 10/22, to pay for center fire ammo.

Absolute wisdom sir. However I've had this rifle for 15 years and it's time for an upgrade. I am most comfortable with an AR-15 along with those type of sights.

I prefer ALG triggers in my AR's such as these http://algdefense.com/triggers.html which of course are single stage. Which, is also why I'm considering the single stage unit from KIDD

Of course, I now am debating if I want the 1 or 2 stage. I'll have to pull out my M1A Scout and dry fire that since I believe it came standard with a 2 stage.

My AR with Eotech and BUIS will likely always be my go to workhorse. My 10/22 I really only want to fill the role as an Appleseed rifle. Not a true bench rifle, but not a strictly field rifle either. Something in between.

[MostlyHarmless]

The 10/22, right out of the box, *needs* but one modification: sling studs and a proper sling. 

Absolutely true!!

But I think this is in no way a consideration of what the rifle (or shooter) needs. Merely one of wants.

Personally, I'm unable to fault a shooter who wants to set up a 22 to be just the rifle they want it to be. If the shooter will then go out and consistently use it, and learn, and improve, and stay current- it's hard to argue that it is money not well spent.

Trigger time on a 22 can be every bit as valuable as trigger time on a centerfire. If tricking out a 22 means that a shooter will use it more, do it!!!

[FiremanBob]

In fairness to us gearheads, Frost volunteered in his original post that he plans to upgrade to a Kidd trigger. It wasn't suggested to him by anyone.

[ItsanSKS]

In fairness to us gearheads, Frost volunteered in his original post that he plans to upgrade to a Kidd trigger. It wasn't suggested to him by anyone.

Believe me, I get it, and understand it, what kills me is this, from his original post:

I've now gotten the Appleseed itch and plan to upgrade that rifle before I attend my first Appleseed.

What's wrong with this picture?

Nothing, on it's face.  In my mind, however, his sentiment speaks to a failing in how we, as instructors, view 'sub-optimal' equipment, and by extension, how our students (and prospective students) view their own equipment. 

Here's this guy, never been to an Appleseed before, and he's looking to 'trick out' his 10/22 to make it 'Appleseed ready'.  (my words, not his)  He likely wants to ensure that his equipment will provide no hurdles or obstacles to achieving a Rifleman score.  Our instructors urge him to continue this plan, suggesting further modifications that he might wish to make; next they'll be recommending some match-grade ammo to go with it, just to make sure; 'cause, you know, that bulk ammo has flyers, and might not fire every time...  How many folks have never shown up, because their rifle wasn't 'Appleseed ready'?

In my view, this is all wrong-headed.  What is it we preach about a Rifleman?  'Able to pick up *any* rack-grade rifle, with surplus ammo, sight it in, and make consistent hits at 500 yards'... 


Rack grade.  Not even Service Grade (which typically has at least a good barrel and trigger), but Rack grade.  Nothing fancy, just like 100 million other rifles out there; has a well-used barrel, trigger pull that feels like mush.

When you perfect your trigger control with an 8# trigger, that doesn't go away.  I could hand you a service rifle with a 3-1/2# trigger and you'll probably do better.  The 8# trigger provides an obstacle for you to overcome, affording you the opportunity to become a better marksman in the process.   The sub-optimal sights of the 10/22 require more focus- it is easier to misalign them than an aperture sight- working to perfect your sight alignment with those sights will teach you the value of a consistent sight alignment. 

Long story short, a man who shoots the Rifleman score with a box stock Ruger 10/22 has overcome more adversity, risen to meet more challenges, and in the end has a better grasp of the fundamentals than someone who has eliminated all of those opportunities by buying 'match grade' components.  Put a match-grade rifle in his hands, and he'll shoot as good, if not better, than he was with his rack grade rifle.  Put a rack grade rifle into the hands of someone who has learned on a match-grade rifle, and well, things get a little more dicey. 

Frost, my advice to you is this:
Forget modifying that 10/22, other than to put a sling on it.
Learn on a rifle that isn't perfect.  Become a 1 MOA shooter using a 3 MOA rifle instead of a 3 MOA shooter using a 1 MOA rifle...

Learn what it takes to be a Rifleman; take a bit of pride in knowing that you've walked a harder path to getting the Rifleman patch, and come out a better marksman for it.

Walk the walk. 

Rack grade all the way!

[Agrivere]

When you go jogging, do you wear flip flops?  Or do you wear proper running shoes?  Certainly one can run in flip flops, just as one can shoot the Ruger OEM sights.  Neither, however, is optimal, and I'm certainly not going to fault anyone who wants to make sure their gear matches their mission.

I've heard both sides of this argument countless times, and both sides have merit.  You can take both sides too far, for sure.  If the cost of upgrading a rifle keeps people away from Appleseed, that's a bad thing certainly.  The idea that a Rifleman can walk into the CMP and pick up a field grade rifle, load it up with military surplus ammo, and go shoot a Rifleman score, is also often a lie.

I know that's not a popular opinion, and I know it's POSSIBLE to pick up a field grade M1 Garand and shoot a Rifleman score with surplus Greek HXP ammo, but I also know it's not likely.  Those rifles are often very rough, and that ammo is capable of 3-4 MOA at best.  Depending on the lot I've seen it shoot much, much worse.

I think a middle ground is the right course, where suggestions are made for cost effective upgrades that are well worth the money (like the Tech Sights).  I will certainly agree that Kidd triggers (though nice, to be sure) are unnecessary overkill, though to suggest that if someone is a good Rifleman they should be able to pick up a field grade M1 Garand, load it up with HXP, and shoot a Rifleman score also fails to pass the sanity test.

My 2 cents worth...

Anticipating the barrage of "I've shot Rifleman scores with my Field grade M1 Garand and HXP ammo" that I'm sure will be coming, I simply say good for you.  For each one of you who found a rifle or a batch of ammo that could shoot that well, there are 10 more whose field grade rifles simply aren't capable of it.  The stocks are loose, the barrels are worn out, the throat is eroded, etc.  I've seen too many Master+ class Highpower shooters barely break 400 on a 500 point course of fire to believe that if I'm truly a good Rifleman I should be able to shoot that score with a Field grade M1 Garand and Greek HXP ammo.  As always, your mileage may vary.

[FiremanBob]

SKS, you have a good point. A better answer to Frost's original question would have been, "All you need for upgrades are aperture sights and a canvas web sling." That is all I had on my first qualifying AQT, and that is all anyone really needs. Frost, if you are upgrading for the purpose of prepping for your first Appleseed, you don't need the fine trigger and other stuff right away.

That said, many of us have made our 10/22s much more enjoyable and effective by making judicious upgrades to the trigger, bolt and barrel. Not required for making Rifleman at an Appleseed, but definitely more satisfying in other shooting sports disciplines that use a .22 semiauto. Note that if you want to compete in CMP Rimfire Sporter matches (which go all the way up to nationals at Camp Perry) your trigger pull must weigh at least 3 lbs.

I must comment on one point in SKS's most recent post: "In my mind, however, his sentiment speaks to a failing in how we, as instructors, view 'sub-optimal' equipment, and by extension, how our students (and prospective students) view their own equipment." Frost never said anyone, much less an AS instructor, advised him to upgrade his rifle at all - the idea of upgrading is all his own. So I think you are inferring too much from the responses. I have written elsewhere (in a recent thread about loaners) about how it is improper to make negative comments about the quality of a student's rifle, and that we suggest a change only if there is a real problem of fit or malfunction that prevents the student from participating fully in the course.

[colycat]

Eric is a much better shot than I am.  I really don't think that I could shoot 4 min of angle with standard Ruger sights.  A sling and tech sights and call it good

[ItsanSKS]

I must comment on one point in SKS's most recent post: "In my mind, however, his sentiment speaks to a failing in how we, as instructors, view 'sub-optimal' equipment, and by extension, how our students (and prospective students) view their own equipment." Frost never said anyone, much less an AS instructor, advised him to upgrade his rifle at all - the idea of upgrading is all his own.

The sentiment that Frost expressed, is this:  "I want to attend an Appleseed event.  I have a 10/22.  I should upgrade that rifle before attending, these are the modifications I plan to make - am I missing anything?."

My inference, my leap, came from wondering how he came to the conclusion that he needed to upgrade the 10/22 before ever attending an event.   My guess, and Frost, please correct me if I am way off base, is that he started reading about Appleseed, started reading the various forum posts (here and elsewhere) and in every instance, he read about the recommended modifications to the 10/22.  'If you are serious about shooting a Rifleman Score, do X,X and X to your 10/22 and use X ammo; to do otherwise is an exercise in futility'. 

Now, while we have zero control over what our participants recommend to other participants, I find it disheartening whenever I see a fellow instructor recommend modifications to a student s/he has never worked with, on a rifle they haven't seen in action.

Maybe Frost doesn't need aperture sights- maybe he's capable of putting down a 3-4 MOA group with those factory sights. Ditto for trigger, stock, magazine release, bolt release, etc. etc.  Maybe he's incapable of putting a 3-4 minute group on target with ANY sight, other than a scope- we now find ourselves in a position of having recommended a part that not only does he not need, but that he cannot effectively use. 

Do we know what modifications he needs?  Does he?  No.  And so why recommend an 'upgrade' we are not certain he needs?   

99.99% of the time, the rifle is the least limiting factor, with the .01% comprising rifles that do not function.  I will never recommend that anyone modify their rifle prior to their attending an event.  I allow the student to determine what barriers they cannot overcome, and what barriers they can.   I do not remove barriers from their path, instead I help them to see the barriers they face.

[Frost]

I must comment on one point in SKS's most recent post: "In my mind, however, his sentiment speaks to a failing in how we, as instructors, view 'sub-optimal' equipment, and by extension, how our students (and prospective students) view their own equipment." Frost never said anyone, much less an AS instructor, advised him to upgrade his rifle at all - the idea of upgrading is all his own.

The sentiment that Frost expressed, is this:  "I want to attend an Appleseed event.  I have a 10/22.  I should upgrade that rifle before attending, these are the modifications I plan to make - am I missing anything?."

My inference, my leap, came from wondering how he came to the conclusion that he needed to upgrade the 10/22 before ever attending an event.   My guess, and Frost, please correct me if I am way off base, is that he started reading about Appleseed, started reading the various forum posts (here and elsewhere) and in every instance, he read about the recommended modifications to the 10/22.  'If you are serious about shooting a Rifleman Score, do X,X and X to your 10/22 and use X ammo; to do otherwise is an exercise in futility'. 

Maybe Frost doesn't need aperture sights- maybe he's capable of putting down a 3-4 MOA group with those factory sights. Ditto for trigger, stock, magazine release, bolt release, etc. etc.  Maybe he's incapable of putting a 3-4 minute group on target with ANY sight, other than a scope- we now find ourselves in a position of having recommended a part that not only does he not need, but that he cannot effectively use. 

Do we know what modifications he needs?  Does he?  No.  And so why recommend an 'upgrade' we are not certain he needs?

You're not way off base....but maybe it will help if I clarify more. My 10/22 doesn't NEED anything because it goes bang every time. I simply just WANT to make it better with parts I KNOW through experience, (special triggers excluded) would work better for me.

I have been reading more about Appleseed lately and I really believe in its mission. We can't let future generations forget about what our forefathers gave to us. We can't let future generations forget about the importance of the 2nd Amendment. If not for Appleseed, I probably wouldn't be thinking about upgrading my 10/22. Why?

Wanting a new stock:
I've read about the emphasis on sling use. I've never trained to use slings to aid in marksmanship. Slings to me are just something used to carry the gun. I have an open mind though and am willing to give it a try. So.....

My "stock" stock doesn't have sling attachment points. I personally have no issue with my current stock, but if I'm going to give the sling thing a try, I need a new one. Sure, I could rig up my current one but I'd rather just buy a different one. LOL, so in all fairness, I guess you can "blame" Appleseed for this change.

Wanting new sights:
The current sights, They work...but they suck and I don't like them. If I were just plinking at cans or pinging metal targets they would be fine. For target shooting, shooting for score, I want something I feel is more appropriate. I've installed tech sights on my Mini-14 and figured I would get a set for my 10/22 also.

The internals:
The lack of an auto bolt release and the currently flush magazine release....it's fine for plinking. Shooting for score, the absence of those things would be an annoying issue for me. I could add those parts separately but on the other hand,

I could just get an assembled trigger group that already has those things. Which after reading around, had me settle on a KIDD due to the reviews I've read. This to me, is the only real luxury item.  An easy way to improve the lack of auto bolt release and magazine release, while at the same time, seeing what all the fuss is about fancy triggers. I don't want fancy triggers in my AR's. I figure it would be perfect to try in my 10/22.

I have a Marlin 336 lever gun that I mainly bought because of the movie "Open Range". It's fun to shoot, and the fundamentals would be the same as shooting any other rifle. That lever gun wouldn't be the right tool for the job for an Appleseed shoot though. My 10/22 is a better fit for the job, especially after some tweaks.

So it's not so much that I want it "Appleseed ready", but just "target shooting" ready. Right now it's just a tin can shooting plinker to me. That was fine 15 years ago, but I've grown past that stage. My 10/22 needs to grow up also.

[airplanejoe]

ItsanSKS is on the correct tract. I can add a word of wisdom I've picked up in the past: "Don't try to fix it if it isn't broke". You don't know if it's broke until you try it. My 2cents; shoot it in a couple of events and then you'll have better guidance in which direction to go. But I have to admit that there is a latent gunsmith in all of us. Tinker if you must!! That is one part of being a gun owner. Been there, done that.
aj

[Chaps]

If the need vs. want debate has been settled in your own mind ...

Rather than a VQ single stage, I'd suggest you send your factory trigger group to Brimstone; I prefer their Tier 2 package. Far cheaper, and phenomenal result. The ABR is included.

You can purchase the new Ruger OEM mag release for $6; perfect for AS, the levers don't seem to be as comfortable for line shooting, more for bench shooters.

I would suggest that you take a piece of green scotchbrite pad and some hoppes 9 to the INSIDE of your receiver. Disassemble the whole thing, and get in there. Doesn't take long, but it really helps things work smoothly - I have a 45 year old 10/22 that I did it to, and it helped.
There are some great instructional videos on polishing the OEM bolt, and polishing the OEM charging handle rod.

I'm all for modifying for your own purposes, but I think you could get what you're looking for a lot cheaper. Just my .02

[mac66]

I wasn't going to respond to this but, hey it's the internet so my opinion is worth what you pay for it. 

1. People forget that "rack grade" is a euphemism for the minimum. It not the ideal, the best or even good. It is simply the minimum you should expect to get by with.

2. We encourage people to bring the minimum so they will at least come to an event, I don't think we should discourage them from bringing something better.

3. "Rack grade" may be good enough but better is better.

BTW, I am one of the few instructors in my state who uses a factory stock rifle (upgraded to "rack grade" i.e., peep sight and a sling)

4. Now where did I put that Rack Grade Rifleman patch?  Oh yeah, there isn't one.

[308LIBERTY]

Recently I inherited an old, beat up 10-22 in pieces. The thing was rusty, dirty, looked like it had never been cleaned, scratched up, dinged and had paint peeling off the receiver. All I did was clean it, perform some minor repairs, add a used wooden stock I paid 20 bucks for, cut it down with a hacksaw and threw on a sling and tech sights. Raised the comb a bit with a piece of foam and some vet wrap. The only "mod" I did to it was the auto bolt release so she wouldn't have to fumble with it as much. 10 bucks and a few minutes to drop it in. My wife just shot Rifleman with it. Her first AQT score was over 190. I think she was only shooting bulk Federals or Blazers that day. My BEST score (out of about 6-8) at my first full weekend of AS was a 134. Just goes to show you that it IS the shooter not the rifle. All you NEED is an empty cup for learning, some patience and persistence.

[malabar]

There are actually two separate conversations going on here. One is about what kind of gear makes it easier to shoot a rifleman's score -- sights, scope, stock, trigger, compensator, barrel weight, laser range finder,  etc.

The second conversation is about what you lose by depending on those gadgets instead of really learning and honing the skills. Yes, a superb Kidd trigger can help help insure that you don't have to build brilliant trigger skills -- but in the long run, wouldn't you be much better off with the brilliant trigger skills than the brilliant trigger?

Now, I don't know Frost's skill set as a marksman. And I'm certainly not downing good gear and personalized rifles.  Not at all. Back in my youth I was a master-class smallbore competitor. The iron sights on my rifle cost more than a 10/22 does today -- and that was 35 years ago.   But did the fancy gear make me a better marksman? Nope. In fact, it was a crutch that kept me from being the best marksman I could be. I was a very talented shooter. I just never developed that talent.

That talent has now faded with age.  But it's been replaced by a modicum of skill, and those are two entirely different things.

You see this in Appleseed and competitive programs all the time.  A new shooter (and sometimes not-so-new shooter) comes to event after event with some new piece of gear that they have researched, absolutely certain that with this magic piece of gear, they will be able to break some barrier that has seemed insurmountable. But when they finally do break the barrier (if they break the barrier), it's always because they finally filled in a missing piece in their skillset,  not because of the gadget.

When you're learning, your focus needs to be inward, on your own performance, not outward, on your gear.  Once you've got the basics down, and you really understand what you need, then mod your gun. And yes, one of these days I'm going to build my own 10/22 race gun. But by then, I'll know EXACTLY what I need.

I apologize if I've offended anyone.

tk

[mac66]

As someone who shoots pretty much stock rifles at Appleseed I get the idea that we should make our student suffer by shooting crappy rifles. How else are they going to learn to shoot but with a crappy trigger and a poorly designed bolt release. I think peep sights are too good for them. Not even going to talk about those slackers who use .22s or God forbid, SCOPES! In fact "those gadgets" like a sling is too much of an advantage. Back in my day real men shot .30 cal center fire rifles with no hearing or eye protection. We didn't need a friggin sling and even sights.  It may have taken years to master shooting but in the end we couldn't hear but we weren't a bunch of mamby pamby, fancy smancy rifle shooters. We shot real rifles dang it!

After all, isn't Appleseed about trying to weed out the weak?  Isn't it about "no pain, no gain?"  Isn't it about "you have to suffer in order to learn?"  Even though we only have students for a very short time and are trying to cram tons of stuff into them, we need to make them suffer because self flagellation is good for the soul. Even if they learn to shoot without suffering they aren't as good as us he-men.

Here is my best R. Lee Ermy voice....

"Sorry little girl, having trouble with the mag release? SUCK IT UP CUPCAKE! This is Appleseed, no crying allowed."

"What's that old man, can't see your sights? Too bad, scopes are for wimps!"

"What's your problem Grandma? Oh, that Mosin kicks a little bit eh? Well too friggin' bad. It's rack grade so get over it." 

Let's face it, people who use scopes or peep sights on .22 rifles, or slings, or decent triggers aren't real riflemen. Gadgets? We don't use no stinking gadgets!  If you have to use gadgets it doesn't really count.

[Frost]

I just installed my Tech Sights. The stock front sight came out easy enough. I was a bit worried about that since I read several threads on various boards about having to whack it really hard. I had my Dremal fired up but thankfully I didn't need it.

Next up will be the stock and the sling/ swivels.  Probably won't get to the new trigger group before an Appleseed shoot.