Having a hard time relaxing in the sling & achieving NPOA

[Harmonica]

When I was having trouble with vertical stringing, it turned out for me being I wasn't getting all the air out of my lungs consistently.  Simply exhaling and shooting at a normal respiratory pause didn't get all the air out the same amount every time for me, depending on how tired I was.  But, I have had asthma for many decades, too.  The solution for me was pursing my lips and blowing the air out, both for sighting in and shooting, as asthmatics were once taught, using pursed lips upon feeling lung tightness, when exhaling on stages 3 and 4 and when sighting in.   I then have several seconds before my vision fades due to oxygenation exhaustion.  Until I learned this, I had vertical stringing that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch top to bottom at 25 meters.  When I learned this, I started getting vertical stringing well under 1/4 inch, often with 7 or more rounds touching POI at 25 meters.

On the other hand, I still sometimes get horizontal stringing that is correlated with heartbeats that seems to be just under 1/2 inch when in prone on stage 4 at times.  I can see this in the scope even when set for 4x.  I have been using a leather sling, but no shooting jacket, just a long sleeve shirt.  If I shoot without the long sleeve shirt, the left to right movement with heart beats gets worse.

Being I shoot in the Florida heat, a shooting jacket just doesn't work longer than 10-15 minutes, or I get overheated.  The pulse patch on it does suppress this heartbeat stringing, though.

That being said, would a web sling work better for suppressing heartbeat L-R stringing movements than a leather sling when shooting with just a long sleeve shirt?   I haven't tried this yet, as I just got a web sling since the last Appleseed.  Anyone have any experience with horizontal stringing with heartbeats?

I have tried tying a bandana around my left upper arm, simulating a pulse patch, and this did help reduce the horizontal stringing, when shooting with a leather sling.  But, the bandana works loose easily when transitioning on stage 3.

I do need to work at getting a consistent respiratory pause but it's proving to be difficult. Being a two pack a day smoker may be a factor but I'm starting to use a vapor pen so I think it's doing something to improve on that. I know it's better for me than the real smokes, by far. It's nice to be part of a program that has me taking some positive steps away from the firing line!

One positive from this weekend was realizing that when I bring my trigger side knee up further forward, it's easier to move forward and get the sling working to stabilize me. It also gets my big fat gut off the ground some and that helps for sure. I'm still not all that relaxed, but I'm getting there. I made some adjustments to the comb height on both my 22 rifles and my neck stopped getting sore and fatigued! 

I worked both Saturday and Sunday with iron sights and I'm afraid I'll have to try switching to shooting right handed with irons. I can see the front sight on my Glock better with my right eye so maybe that's where the trouble is. I'll try dry firing right handed this week because it's just not going to work if I can't focus with my left eye.

This morning, I used a cheap BSA scope on 3x and the android Appleseed timer app. Put up an AQT target and shot a 231 despite a horrible stage 2. I went 49 / 50 on stage four with the scope and had time to spare on each stage and also cleared a Redcoat target. I then shot some drill squares with the irons and some five shot squares didn't even have one hit inside the square. 

Thanks, all of you, for the suggestions and encouragement!

[Agrivere]

If you're able to shoot a 231 in practice with a scope, then I'm not so sure establishing NPOA is as big of a problem as you might be thinking it is.  You simply can't muscle a rifle onto a target and shoot that kind of score.

You mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related.  And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry".  That's true for most of us.   I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.

Have you established which is your dominant eye?  Do you shoot with both eyes open?  Do you see the tip of the front sight post in perfect focus with iron sights?  All of these things will affect your shooting with iron sights.

My personal experience wasn't entirely different from yours.  At my first Appleseed I easily shot a Rifleman score with a scope, and then became extremely frustrated that I could not easily duplicate that feat with iron sights.  As it turned out, shooting iron sights well is neither as hard, nor as easy, as many people think.

First thing I learned, is that shooting with iron sights is a learned skill.  It seems simple enough to align a post in a notch or in the center of an aperture, but it really is something that takes some practice and some experience.  I see people all the time who give up on iron sights because they find them difficult, or they don't think they see well enough, or their presbyopia makes it hard to focus on the front sight, or whatever.  There are scads of excuses.  There are also solutions to every one of them.  I shoot with plenty of guys in their 60's and older who can out shoot me with iron sights, and I'd hazard a guess Fred is likely one of them.

Once I learned how to effectively use iron sights, and understood a bit more about how my cross-dominant eye and my mild presbyopia were affecting my shooting, I can now easily shoot a Rifleman score with iron sights.  I'd love to hear more about what you "see" when you're shooting iron sights, and I'm sure the many instructors here can offer some good suggestions!

[Harmonica]

If you're able to shoot a 231 in practice with a scope, then I'm not so sure establishing NPOA is as big of a problem as you might be thinking it is.  You simply can't muscle a rifle onto a target and shoot that kind of score.

I feel that if it weren't a problem, my groups with iron sights might be off target, but would still be in a decent group due to being in NPOA. Mine are shotgun wild, most times. I did shoot a 207 with irons at my first weekend but all other AQTs were in the 160 - 180 range.

You mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related.  And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry".  That's true for most of us.   I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.

Have you established which is your dominant eye?  Do you shoot with both eyes open?  Do you see the tip of the front sight post in perfect focus with iron sights?  All of these things will affect your shooting with iron sights.

I was sure that my left eye was my dominant eye but I'm not so sure anymore after struggling so bad with irons. It seems to me now that I can see the front sight with better focus with my right eye. I got rained out at the range on Sunday before I could see how it translated to groups on paper.

My personal experience wasn't entirely different from yours.  At my first Appleseed I easily shot a Rifleman score with a scope, and then became extremely frustrated that I could not easily duplicate that feat with iron sights.  As it turned out, shooting iron sights well is neither as hard, nor as easy, as many people think.

First thing I learned, is that shooting with iron sights is a learned skill.  It seems simple enough to align a post in a notch or in the center of an aperture, but it really is something that takes some practice and some experience.  I see people all the time who give up on iron sights because they find them difficult, or they don't think they see well enough, or their presbyopia makes it hard to focus on the front sight, or whatever.  There are scads of excuses.  There are also solutions to every one of them.  I shoot with plenty of guys in their 60's and older who can out shoot me with iron sights, and I'd hazard a guess Fred is likely one of them.

Once I learned how to effectively use iron sights, and understood a bit more about how my cross-dominant eye and my mild presbyopia were affecting my shooting, I can now easily shoot a Rifleman score with iron sights.  I'd love to hear more about what you "see" when you're shooting iron sights, and I'm sure the many instructors here can offer some good suggestions!

It's hard to describe, but I think the front sight looks sharper, more focused with my right eye. Sorry to be so vague but I'm not sure how else to say it.

I sure do appreciate you lending your perspective and expertise. This is something I'll continue to work on. My struggles with irons and the fact that I haven't shot Rifleman at a KD yet are two of the reasons I turned down an orange hat.

[dart67eb]

A 1/4" square at 20 feet.  You can do that in your house.  I mean NPOA and dry fire practice of course (unless you like holes in your wall).  That's what did it for me.

[Guntuckian]

Have learned a lot from this thread.  On the Revision Military Sawfly option, I now have mine, ordered via eBay, and have also ordered prescription inserts.  As it turned out, it was much harder getting prescription inserts ordered for the Revision Sawfly than expected. 

All regular optical places would only fill my script for prescription inserts with exactly the same Rx as the script was written for, which wasn't going to give me a +0.75 adder on my distance prescription like I needed for my dominant eye when shooting iron sights on a rifle.  And, the ophthalmologist at the original place just said, "You don't have 20 year old eyes anymore" and wouldn't change my script to give me the shooting prescription I needed.  He was a non-shooter.

Fortunately, there was an independent optician in the same office who was a shooter.  He couldn't modify my script and make what I wanted, due to state law.  But, he quietly talked to me off to the side, and recommended I go to another place, with the only optometrist in town who was a shooter who would know exactly what I needed.  I then went to this optometrist, and he modified my script for what I needed, no new eye exam required, and additionally recommended I go with Trivex in place of polycarbonate lenses, due to the particulars of my prescription, as polycarbonate lenses would have too much chromatic dispersion to shoot iron sights accurately.  He also was very specific in inquiring exactly what kind of shooting I was wanting to do, as the details for modifying my script would vary greatly depending on shotgun vs. rifle vs. pistol shooting. 

Lessons learned (for overcoming middle-age presbyopia and still shooting iron sights):

1.) Revision Military Sawfly + prescription inserts is very inexpensive when ordered on eBay.  Less than $40.  And, if you don't need prescription inserts, then you are fully protected with ANSI Z87.1 Standard eye protection, no further cost needed.  (Protection against errant spitting lead and powder, with wraparound eye protection!)

2.) Assuming you are getting to an age where your arms are not long enough to read a newspaper anymore sans reading glasses, find an optometrist who is a shooter, otherwise you won't be able to get what you really need for your script.

3.) Determine what type of shooting you are wanting to do.  The appropriate diopter adders required on your dominant, shooting, eye, for your spherical prescription, are:

+1.00 for M1911 or similar pistol iron sights
+0.75 for AR-15 or Ruger 10-22 iron sights
+0.50 for M1 Garand or similar iron sights
+0.25 to +0.30 for Mosin Nagant rifles, or similar, longer sighting radius rifles, with iron sights

4.) Get the  optical center (sweet spot) on the dominant eye lens placed in the right place:
a.) dead center for shotgun or slightly above this for pistol
b.) upper left quadrant of dominant eye lens for a right handed shooter for iron sight rifle shooting

Also, be sure that the lab where you are getting this done has its own grinding capability.  Otherwise, the standard upcharge for send-out work is around $10 per mm of prism, and you will likely need 24 mm, or so, of prism added, to move the sweet spot to the upper left quadrant of the lens, which is how they will want to put the sweet spot in the upper left of the dominant eye.  Yet, if the lab has its own grinding capability, they can grind the lens with the sweet spot exactly where you need it, with no added upcharges or prism being required.  Do this wrong, and you will pay an extra $240 for just one lens.  Do it right, and you avoid any upcharge!

5.  Get the non-dominant eye optical center placed in the center, the same as for normal eyeglasses.  This way, you can read the wind flags and see the target clearly at 100, 200, 300, 400 yards, for KD Appleseeds, and even up to 500-600 yards for CMP or other shooting sports (F-class), with your non-dominant eye.

6.) Consider getting Trivex in place of polycarbonate for improved optical clarity, and lessened distortion, while getting the same protection against UV and slightly better protection against impacts.  Depending on your prescription, this may even be recommended by the optometrist who is a shooter that understands the optics involved.  Trivex was invented by the US Army in 2001 and is also know as visual armor.  It provides the ultimate in eye protection (slightly better than polycarbonate), but with improved clarity slightly off axis, lessening distortion.

5.)  If cost becomes a problem for the prescription inserts, consider getting CR-39 plastic lenses.  Being inside the Revision Sawfly protection, CR-39 is very acceptable, and is what US Army recruits most commonly get with prescription inserts.  But, if you are shooting MIL-surplus rifles, where incipient head separations for reloads is a real possibility, then you should consider polycarbonate lenses.  If your eyes are worth an extra $20-30, then consider stepping up from polycarbonate to Trivex, and get improved impact protection and better (lessened) optical aberrations.

6.) It is possible to order Zenni Optical plastic lenses, or similar online, and these are available for around $35.  But, they are not ANSI Z87.1 standard rated, and are not necessarily going to protect your eyes against errant shotgun pellets, lead shrapnel returning from a steel plate, or case head separations on .30 caliber cartridges.  The total cost for Revision Military Sawfly shooting glasses with prescription inserts, and two shields (one clear, one smoke), microfiber cleaning cloth, microfiber storage bag, zippered enclosured storage bag with belt loops, ordering surplus Sawfly/inserts off eBay and getting even Trivex lenses custom made, is less than $180.  Personally, I think my eyes are worth protecting with military spec protection (APEL:  Approved Protective Eyeware List) for only $180.  YMMV.  (Incidentally, the optician at the first shop, who was the shooter, has gone the Oakley route;  he spent right at $500 for his eye protection prescription shooting glasses, after getting a discount off the usual retail price of $600!)

(Locals: PM me and I can tell you who the shootin' optometrist in town is!  He is a useful guy to know)

[fisherdawg]

Nice work Guntuckian!
Invaluable for us 40+, 50+ crowd stubborn enough to shoot irons.
Thanks, I learned a lot.
As for those who say -- just tough it out somehow -- we're here to tell you that don't work.  Proper prescription shooting glasses do work.  Buy the correct tool once, and be done with it.

fisherdawg

[Pitmaster]

Prescription shoting glasses can be reimbursed by medical flexible benefit plans.

[jmdavis]

The value of online retailers like Zenni optical is the ability to get prescriptions which you can try before spending hundreds of dollars on custom eyewear. You can tweak your prescription through and purchase normal or impact resistant sports glasses. That  is also the value of having custom lensmakers like Art Nearguard of Shooting Sight llc (http://www.shootingsight.com)or Bob Jones (http://www.bjonessights.com)making custom lenses or inexpensive glasses for you.

As I noted earlier my preference is for round lenses that I can then rotate if my astigmatism changes by a few degrees during the day. While they are not safety rated, they do offer some protection from gasses, dust oil, etc. The military glasses are much more oriented to a two way rather than one way shooting range, and protect the eyes from dirt, rock and other projectiles that might be coming your way.

Also understand that the rules of thumb don't work the same for everyone. +.75 to distance is generally what you want for an AR, but your milage may vary.

[Harmonica]

I practiced some more this weekend and made some progress. First thing I did was get away from the 6 o clock hold and go back to holding where I want to hit. Then, using front and rear bags to zero, I tore out the center of the square with a 2 MOA group after some sight adjustments.

A lot of my groups today were probably good enough for Rifleman but I didn't have any more old AQT's to paste up and I didn't bring any new ones with me. 

I feel like technique is more the problem than my vision. Since the rifle would jump a little on my bags when zeroing, I had to take aim again after each shot. Despite that, I still positioned the front sight well enough to shoot groups that were all touching so I don't think my eyes were that much of a problem.

My sight alignment had probably not been very consistent and I feel like that was the biggest problem. edit: Thanks to Agrivere for bringing this up:

You mentioned seeing the sights with your right eye, and I'm wondering if at least some of your challenges with iron sights are vision related.  And I don't mean "it's hard to see the target" or "the target is blurry".  That's true for most of us.   I'm talking about sight alignment, sight picture, and aligning your NPOA with the center of the target.

I also was probably not trusting the sling and my aim, taking my focus off the front sight at times. There is still much more room for improvement, and perhaps an eye exam in my future, but I think I'm on the right track.

BTW, I also participated in an intro to IDPA of sorts this weekend and I shot pretty good with the G19. Another ammo burning gun hobby is all I need... 

[Agrivere]

I shoot USPSA every week along with regular Highpower matches and it's most certainly hard to keep up!