Williams vs Click Adjustable sights

[Chaps]

Read the thread on TS vs Nodak sights, went to reply and it was suggested I start a new thread because the other one was old ... so here goes.

I have TSR100s on my LTR, have used them for AS, not particularly fond of them. Adjustment is familiar, and the audible click was nice. But for AS, once you've got your 25yd dope on the 22 LTR, do you ever change it? Unless its a loaner, used by multiple shooters, it seems like once its dialed in, there's no point in moving them again as there's no variable distance shooting in the course of fire.

I like the williams on other guns, and am thinking hard about ditching the TSR100 for the ace-in-the hole set up, not as much for the scope base, but for the nice long sight distance, and the williams aperture. Has anyone else done the same? Did you find the initial sight-in to be any more troublesome than using a click-adjustable set?

S/F, Chaps

[fisherdawg]

I've often wondered if the Williams sights are a good answer for 10/22 LTR.  I'll be interested to see what the forum has to say.  I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that Williams best model required drilling new holes in the receiver.  For me that's  a trip to the gunsmith.  I haven't gone beyond looking at the catalogue stage with them.
fisherdawg

[Moylan]

I have WGRS model Williams sights on three of the rifles my sons and I have used at Appleseeds.  You probably know this already, but for readers who don't: the WGRS model (which I'm pretty sure is the style that comes with the ace in the hole) is adjusted by unscrewing a tiny little set screw and sliding the rear sight up or down on a ramp, and then unscrewing another tiny little set screw and sliding the site left or right in a little dovetail.  Obviously, this means you'll need to bring your little set of jeweler's screwdrivers to the line, and use them to make your adjustments.

There are index marks along the elevation slide so, I suppose, you could spend some time figuring out how many clicks each little tick mark equals.  If you've got time and mental energy to do that, I'd suggest taking a shot at it.  I haven't done it.  So I just guesstimate.  My first Appleseed, it took my quite awhile to get my rifle zeroed--like, basically, right up to the first AQT.  (However, some of the reason I was having a hard time with zeroing was, I think, that I kept adjusting my positions trying to get them right.  So I'd have been having to adjust my sights anyway, I believe.)  At this point, I've gotten a lot better at estimating the amount of adjustment needed, so doing my sons's rifles has become much simpler. 

One thing I would note, though, is that you will almost certainly need to loctite the set screws once you've got the sights zeroed.  Blue loctite, of course.  And even with the set screws loctited, you might still get some motion.  The rear sight fell off my son's rifle on the Saturday morning of our last Appleseed.  The set screw was still nicely locked in place.  Evidently I just hadn't screwed it in hard enough. 

Despite the fact that the Williams sights have some drawbacks, I really do like them.  I use a very small aperture for appleseeds.  If you want the small aperture but find it hard to see through, you can get the twilight version, which has a brass ring around the aperture, and really brightens the picture up.  If you use the rifle for squirrel hunting or something and don't want to use that tiny aperture, you can replace it with a much larger one, or just screw the aperture out and use the rear as a ghost ring if you want to use the rifle in a tactical match or whatever. 

The front sight on a 10-22 with the standard contour barrel just looks goofy.  It sticks up in the air like a skyscraper.  The Williams front sights are a lot lower-profile (I don't know if you'd have to replace the stock front sight--the stock one might be high enough to work with the Williams rear, but I don't know for sure.  I've replaced ours.) 

[Moylan]

I've often wondered if the Williams sights are a good answer for 10/22 LTR.  I'll be interested to see what the forum has to say.  I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that Williams best model required drilling new holes in the receiver.  For me that's  a trip to the gunsmith.  I haven't gone beyond looking at the catalogue stage with them.
fisherdawg

Williams does make rear sights that are click adjustable, and they sell target knobs so you can do the adjustments with your fingers rather than a screwdriver.  To the best of my knowledge, these sights are not available for the 10-22 (or, as you say, they're not available without some kind of gunsmithing).  I also don't know if the adjustments are really repeatable.  But yes, as you say, the Williams sights that I'm using on my 10-22's are not their best--they're more or less the base model.

[TOMINCT]

 At one time Williams made a target knob rear ap sight that would attach to the receiver groove on a 22 rifle, if the rifle was so equipped.

Should be doable on the weaver scope base for the 10-22 as it has both the groove for tip off rings and standard weaver rings.

[2 clicks low]

Williams makes their Fool Proof sights for the 10/22. Yes you need to drill.
Combine these with say a Lyman target front sight (your choice of inserts) and you have the best sights I have seen for the 10/22. They are click adjustable and repeatable. Get the target knobs for ease of adjusting.

2cl

[fisherdawg]

What would you guess total cost including gunsmithing?  This was the option I kind of investigated a couple of years ago with Lyman insert etc.
fisherdawg

Williams makes their Fool Proof sights for the 10/22. Yes you need to drill.
Combine these with say a Lyman target front sight (your choice of inserts) and you have the best sights I have seen for the 10/22. They are click adjustable and repeatable. Get the target knobs for ease of adjusting.

2cl

[fisherdawg]

Moylan,
I'm sure those are good sights, but unless they are click adjustable they are a non-starter for me.  My CF is a CMP Special Grade M1.  Can't go back to index marks and no clicks now.

[Charles McKinley]

I would put a Daisy rear sight before the ramp type Williams., it slides on the scope rail.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Daisy_5899_Peep_Sight/320

Target knobs, click adjustable, repeatable.

It needs the Tech site front sight to get the height right

I tried to help someone with the Williams ramp type at a shoot.  I found it "almost" as frustrating to adjust as the ruger factory sights.   It moved as you were trying to tighten it down.  To add insult to injury it shook loose and slid right off the rifle. 

Some say the Daisy isn't durable enough but I haven't killed them on my air guns yet and they get turned over to cock while my support elbow stays put to preserve NPOA as much as possible.
As far as "Sky Scraper Front sight"   It looks about the same as the M1 to me and way lower than an AR platform.

I believe the best tool for adjusting techsites is a 5.56X45 FMJ followed by a7.62 FMJ pick flavor.  The other tools are a pain.

Fisherdawg:  I researched the Fool Proof with the Lyman front site and it was pricey even before the gunsmithing.  If I get a chance I'll see if I can find the numbers.  I'm trying to get the place cleaned out for an IBC.  No rest for the wicked.

[2 clicks low]

Fool proofs about 70. Target knobs 15, Lyman globe 40. Gunsmith 50?

2cl

What would you guess total cost including gunsmithing?  This was the option I kind of investigated a couple of years ago with Lyman insert etc.
fisherdawg

Williams makes their Fool Proof sights for the 10/22. Yes you need to drill.
Combine these with say a Lyman target front sight (your choice of inserts) and you have the best sights I have seen for the 10/22. They are click adjustable and repeatable. Get the target knobs for ease of adjusting.

2cl

[fisherdawg]

Thanks,.
No rest for the wicked is right!

Fool proofs about 70. Target knobs 15, Lyman globe 40. Gunsmith 50?

2cl

What would you guess total cost including gunsmithing?  This was the option I kind of investigated a couple of years ago with Lyman insert etc.
fisherdawg

Williams makes their Fool Proof sights for the 10/22. Yes you need to drill.
Combine these with say a Lyman target front sight (your choice of inserts) and you have the best sights I have seen for the 10/22. They are click adjustable and repeatable. Get the target knobs for ease of adjusting.

2cl

[FiremanBob]

I have the Williams Foolproof rear sight on one 10/22. I bought the FP-AG-TK model, which is the airgun model with target knobs. I had to buy a Weaver rail to mount it. The good thing about the AG model sight is that you don't have to mill out the stock to accommodate the vertical adjustment slider. It is click adjustable, and holds its setting well once you screw down the locking screw on the side. The bad thing is that it sits high enough that you will almost certainly have to add a 1/4-inch riser block under your front sight; but this is a cheap, easy-to-install part. I have the .875" high base Lyman globe front sight, with a riser. I'll post up some photos of my setup later this morning.

[MostlyHarmless]

The factory sights on the Sig 522 are Sig's hooded front sight and a Williams peep rear. Together, they make a very good HK style concentric ring system. Windage can easily be adjusted at the front sight- but of course elevation requires adjusting the rear. Overall, I very much like the sights. But that rear sight was set at 25yds years ago and that's where it stays. (At 25yds, it is at the very top of the elevation scale.)

I helped a student with a 10/22 with Williams sights (fire sights maybe?) last month. They were a bit irksome to zero, but once zeroed he was spot on for the rest of the weekend.

I have no idea of the little tick marks on the elevation scale are minutes. I would like to think so, but I've never adjusted the sight enough to find out. I'd be curious to do so- but honestly this year I can't spare the 10-15 rounds of 22lr it would take to find out. 

Two bits of advice to make adjusting them a bit easier:
-Color that elevation scale in with a white crayon (google "tacticrayola" for instructions).
-Put some heavy grease (not oil!) on the elevation and windage slides. This way when you loosen the set screw, the sight saddle stays in place, instead of falling to the bottom or side of the slide. It's really annoying when you go to make a small adjustment, and the saddle gets away from you and you have to start over with no reference to where you had been.

[Chaps]

Two bits of advice to make adjusting them a bit easier:
-Color that elevation scale in with a white crayon (google "tacticrayola" for instructions).
-Put some heavy grease (not oil!) on the elevation and windage slides. This way when you loosen the set screw, the sight saddle stays in place, instead of falling to the bottom or side of the slide. It's really annoying when you go to make a small adjustment, and the saddle gets away from you and you have to start over with no reference to where you had been.

Great tips, thanks! I've used grease, but never colored; that looks like a great idea. Someone also recommended Purple loc-tite on all the screws to reduce the likelihood of them jiggling out during adjustment, or rattling loose during firing.

[2 clicks low]

. Someone also recommended Purple loc-tite on all the screws to reduce the likelihood of them jiggling out during adjustment, or rattling loose during firing.

For mounting the Sight to the rifle use BLUE loc-tite.

Do NOT loc-tite your adjustment screws. You will need to adjust them as distances change.

2cl

[Moylan]

I do use the blue loctite on the set screws once I've got the rifle zeroed.  If you're like me, you'll need a screwdriver with a real handle on it in order to bust open the loctite if you need to adjust the set screws later on--the little jeweler's screwdrivers are too small to get enough grip on to unscrew a loctited screw.  So if you're going to use loctite, be sure you've got a screwdriver small enough to fit the screw heads, but large enough to hold onto. 

If you're planning to make frequent adjustments to your zero (loaning out the rifle, changing distances, going from high velocity to standard velocity ammo, or whatever) then of course I'd agree that loctiting the set screws would be silly.  But since I pretty much shoot only high velocity, and since I set my 22 rifles to 25 yards and leave them, I find the loctite helps.  The Williams screws do have a pronounced tendency to unscrew themselves.

[Chaps]

Wasn't thinking Red should be anywhere on a firearm, and Blue is good until you need to remove it. Purple is low strength and you can turn the screws still, which sounds reasonable for setting up your sights the first time.

[2 clicks low]

The purple on adjustment screws will haunt you. If worried simply check the locking screws when you go shooting and when you clean.

You will run into a shoot boss somewhere who will say on Sunday afternoon something to the effect of, "Shoulder your rifle and grab your ammo, I have steel setup on the 100 yd. bay. .22lr users the come ups should be about 6 MOA. .223 and .30 we went over that yesterday."

2cl

Wasn't thinking Red should be anywhere on a firearm, and Blue is good until you need to remove it. Purple is low strength and you can turn the screws still, which sounds reasonable for setting up your sights the first time.

[Charles McKinley]

On clearance at midway.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/483133/williams-fp-ru-receiver-peep-sight-44-magnum-ruger-carbine-22-long-rifle-10-22-10-22-magnum-96-22-96-22-magnum-and-96-44-aluminum-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[malabar]

The Williams sights are not cheap, but they're good quality.

Top keep it in perspective: You can easily spend as much on a set of top quality aperture sights as most people would spend on a scope. 

tk

[Nickle]

This is true, but most folks buying a scope don't buy the better ones.

And, the better ones, equivalent quality to the Williams Fool Proof sight, aren't even close to cheap.

Paying $400-$1000 for a scope isn't that unusual for some shooters. It all depends on what you're putting it on.