Case Preparation

[Old Dog]

I recently purchased a vibrating case cleaner (too poor in the old days, used a Lee trimmer base in a drill and real fine steel wool) and after a month I have question.   Until the other day the brass came out (time period varied based on original condition of brass - no surprise) looking clean and shiny.  A few days ago the brass started looking not polished, but bead blasted.  It's clean, it's just rough looking.  I'm wondering if this is due to dirt/brass residuce build up in the media.  Anybody else who's run into this before please give me some advice.  Changing the media is simple (and cheap) but it's still doing a great job cleaning, it's just appears to be roughing the brass up vs. polishing it.  Thanks.




Edited to sticky and rename the thread.

[raf]

Strictly speaking you have cleaned them enough.  If you want to polish them, add some polishing compound bit by bit to the media (no cases present) and mix it in thoroughly. I've used the same media for some time now.  It's black and probably saturated with polishing compound but does a good, quick job of it. Midway sells the polish.   

[ken grant]

  Nu-Finish or just about any liquid car polish will work as well as the compounds made for case polishing and much cheaper.

[Nickle]

I tumble with Walnut Shells before processing, then with Corn Cob after sizing to remove lube residue. The Corn Cob polishes the brass as well as remove the lube.

[raf]

I tumble with Walnut Shells before processing, then with Corn Cob after sizing to remove lube residue. The Corn Cob polishes the brass as well as remove the lube.

Everybody has their own twist on things.  I use water soluble lube, and rinse the cases to remove same.  That way the tumbler and polish-impregnated media aren't contaminated by the lube.

[Nickle]

That would work. I did forget to mention that for pistol ammo, I use Carbide dies, and skip the after sizing polish.

Folks, there's many ways to do this. My father doesn't remove the lube after sizing, as he always anneals the brass after trimming and chamfering, and before priming. The annealing process (we've got our own home built machine, belt driven) removes any lube residue.

[Old Dog]

Other things important about preparing the cases.
1. if using military brass with a crimp on the primer pocket you've got to removed the crimp before you can install a new primer, I've always used the RCBS primer pocket swager but there are other brands, types, ways of getting rid of the crimp
2.  clean out the residue in the primer pocket before installing the new primer, the one I use is double ended for use with either small or large primers (forget who make it, think it was Lee)  This is really a good idea as you must make sure the primer is fully seated in the pocket, especially with our M1's, M1A's and AR-15's.  A primer not fully seated is sticking up far enough that it could be set off during chambering (a very bad thing for your rifle and you)
3.  check the case length and trim if necessary.  If you crimp (I don't) the case mouth on the bullet the cases have to be the same length or the crimp will be variable which will affect your pressures which will affect your velocities which will affect your group size.  Another thing you want to make sure of is that the case mouth does not strike the end of the chamber as the bolt closes.  It could keep the bolt from fully closing (not sure how likely this is) or could further crimp the case mouth on the bullet, increasing chamber pressures.
4.  Once you've installed the new primers be sure to check every case to insure the primers are fully seated in the primer pocket (for the reasons stated above).
5. be sure to "deburr" the case mouth inside and outside so you don't damage the case mouth or the bullet during the seating process.  A wrinkled case mouth can/will keep the load from fully chambering.  A damaged bullet base will affect the accuracy of the bullet more as the range to the target increases.

Feel free to add to this if I've left something out, or you've got a slicker way of getting the cases ready.

[Oohrah]

   Water rinse!   Make sure with this method the interior is
dry DRY!!!!  Any powder residue with attract and hold moisture.
An extender for polish medium is to take those clothes refresh-
er sheets, that is added to a dryer full of clothes, to the tumbler.
I cut one into strips.   It picks up the dust, powder, and other
small crud and holds it.   When it starts looking dark and nasty,
replace with new.

[raf]

   Water rinse!   Make sure with this method the interior is
dry DRY!!!!  Any powder residue with attract and hold moisture.
An extender for polish medium is to take those clothes refresh-
er sheets, that is added to a dryer full of clothes, to the tumbler.
I cut one into strips.   It picks up the dust, powder, and other
small crud and holds it.   When it starts looking dark and nasty,
replace with new.

Oh, the cases have to be dry, alright!  I take the freshly washed cases and toss them into a Dillon media seperator.  Spin that bad boy a few times in both directions, and lay the cases next to the furnace.  Leave 'em there for a couple of days, and then check the insides of a few with flashlight.  Yes, it takes time, but then I've plenty of other things to do.  Since I have a number of presses, I can be doing other tasks while the cases are drying.  I usually don't reload in lots of less than 1K, unless it is dedicated Match ammo or something "special".

[Fred]

     If this has already been mentioned, it won't hurt to mention it again.

     When you reload for semi-autos, you full-length resize, for reliability in feeding.

     When you reload multiple times, the case is subject to repeated stretching.

     When the case stretches like this, brass 'flows' toward the neck.

      The case gets longer - which is why triming and case OAL is critical for semiautos - a 'long' case can result in a 'pinched' bullet, and pressure spiking way above acceptable limits.

     But that's not all, and it's not enough to keep case length within specs.

     When brass flows, it also makes the neck thicker. Enough extra thickness, and the case, even if within AOL spec, will pinch the bullet, and pressures will again spike over max.

     So, if you reload your brass repeatedly for semiauto, which for reliability requires full-length resizing, you need to trim case length AND turn the neck back to the correct thickness (inside vs outside turning is your choice).

      That's a valuable rifle you have. Don't blow it up for no reason...

[raf]

     If this has already been mentioned, it won't hurt to mention it again.

     When you reload for semi-autos, you full-length resize, for reliability in feeding.

     When you reload multiple times, the case is subject to repeated stretching.

     When the case stretches like this, brass 'flows' toward the neck.

      The case gets longer - which is why triming and case OAL is critical for semiautos - a 'long' case can result in a 'pinched' bullet, and pressure spiking way above acceptable limits.
T     But that's not all, and it's not enough to keep case length within specs.

     When brass flows, it also makes the neck thicker. Enough extra thickness, and the case, even if within AOL spec, will pinch the bullet, and pressures will again spike over max.

     So, if you reload your brass repeatedly for semiauto, which for reliability requires full-length resizing, you need to trim case length AND turn the neck back to the correct thickness (inside vs outside turning is your choice).

      That's a valuable rifle you have. Don't blow it up for no reason...

This is completely correct as stated.  However, the relatively new "X-Die" from RCBS is claimed to limit overall shell length increase to .002" (total) even after repeated sizings using the "X-Die".  My prelimary testing confirms the manufacturer's claims up to 5 re-sizings.  Each case was carefully inspected for signs of incipient case-head seperation and any increase in neck wall thickness.  No signs of any problems due to brass migration as yet.

Follow the Mfr's instructions to the letter (not at all a burdensome task), and you'll have no problems.

So far, the "X-Die" promises to save a LOT of time trimming and chamfering.  Disclaimer: no commercial interest.

[ken grant]

 The main problem with brass from a gas gun such as an M1/M14/M1a is the fact that the rifle tries to snatch the brass out and also tries to twist it while still HOT and under pressure with the M14/M1A being the worse.
You can measure the difference between brass fired with gas valve on or off.
You can also get longer case life if you leave the valve turned off when on the range just plinking.
Also you can keep the same brass dedicated to each rifle and use the sizing die to resize brass just to fit the rifle( not full length resize), you will also get longer case life.

[TwoGlock]

I recently purchased a vibrating case cleaner (too poor in the old days, used a Lee trimmer base in a drill and real fine steel wool) and after a month I have question.   Until the other day the brass came out (time period varied based on original condition of brass - no surprise) looking clean and shiny.  A few days ago the brass started looking not polished, but bead blasted.  It's clean, it's just rough looking.  I'm wondering if this is due to dirt/brass residuce build up in the media.  Anybody else who's run into this before please give me some advice.  Changing the media is simple (and cheap) but it's still doing a great job cleaning, it's just appears to be roughing the brass up vs. polishing it.  Thanks.




Edited to sticky and rename the thread.

It's likely that there are several things that could cause your "Bead Blasted' appearance.

The only time I have had that happen is when I have TOO many cases for the amount of cleaning media.

I change media fairly often, i.e.; when either the crushed walnut or corncob looks nasty, I trash it.

I go through a lot of cases so I use two tumblers.  One tumbler with walnut shells with brass polish added and the other with corn cob and nothing added.

[Old Dog]

Varying the amount of cases in the tub is easy.  I'll try it. Thanks.

[AZRedhawk44]

You can also get longer case life if you leave the valve turned off when on the range just plinking.

I've been SERIOUSLY contemplating this to get more than 4-5 loadings out of my current stock of .308 brass.  I have between 1500 and 2000 pieces of brass, mostly Federal (soft!) but also Winchester, Remington, Nosler and LC.  Since the cost of .308 has doubled, I've been concerned with how to keep a decent stock of brass.

I don't have a chrony, but hopefully someone else does and can answer this question:

Is there a velocity difference between an M14 operating with the gas valve closed versus opened?  Change in POI at all?

[Old Dog]

Here's a link to the M14 Firing Line Public Forum.  According to this testing of M118 match ammo showed an avg. 15 fps muzzle velocity "decrease" with the valve closed along with a noticeable increase in recoil.

http://www.m-14forum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=39664&highlight=valve

another link to a discussion about closing the spindle valve

http://www.m-14forum.com/upload/showthread.php?t=14977&highlight=valve

[Old Dog]

I was recently given a bucket of mixed brass (several calibers, brass, steel both lacquered and zinc coated).  The brass had been in the bucket for awhile and the steel cases (many of them) had rusted.  Well, even though the brass didn't rust the steel has corroded where it touched the brass and some of it looks really bad.  I'll know more once it goes through the polisher but I just wanted to let folks know it would be a good idea to do the sortin', separatin' and cleanin' as soon as possible after you pick it up. FYI FWIW.  Oh, yeah, thanks for the brass.

[Oohrah]

Yep, a magnet should easily separate the steel from brass.   Separation
from the start makes the rest of the process go much faster.   Also
cuts down on time and materials used for rejects.

[wcmartin1]

I have found Federal brass to be closest in weight and construction to Lake City (imagine that).  However, I will still only reload a case for my M1A five times maximum, though.  I can buy more brass, but I can't buy another ...

[wcmartin1]

I loaded some once-fired lithuanian m80 brass cases (GGG headstamp) between dove hunts this weekend.  The cases weigh the same as Lake City, but they seem to be quite a bit harder without being brittle.  I'll have to see how they last.  After careful inspection I'll still only reload them 5 times max, though.

[Old Dog]

How do your determine "harder" than LC brass?  I've had brass that was harder to resize than others but I assumed it was either expanded more due to pressure or the chamber of the rifle it was fired in.

[Muddogg]

Have you tried annealing them? That should make them softer.

[wcmartin1]

I full length size cases using Imperial Case Sizing Wax (I have never had a stuck case since switching to this product), trim them to length, chamfer and debur them, clean the primer pocket, remove the military crimp (swage the pocket with the Dillon tool) on the first reload, debur the flashhole, and clean up any burs on the rim caused by extraction.

If I am doing small batches (I reloaded 50 of these) I usually use hand tools for triming and deburing the cases.  I found that these cases (GGG) took considerably more effort than normal (I have reloaded thousands of cases).

These cases were from Lithuanian M80 surplus that I fired from my rifle.  Since I use Imperial Case Sizing Wax they were easy to resize.

I did not anneal these cases, but you can see the annealing marks from the factory. 

I am not sure that these cases being harder than normal is a bad thing.  I am hoping they may be stronger.  I will see how they last compared to Lake City after several reloads.  I'll post my experience at a later date.

Cheers.

[Nickle]

You should try annealing them, and annealing every so many reloads.

The brass work hardens from firing and sizing cycles. Older brass will have a tendency to get brittle over time as well. THis will make your brass last longer, and you'll get fewer split necks.

If case forming, you definitely need to anneal your cases.

Over at the shop, we have a power annealer made from a belt sander,  iron pipe (drilled), propane bottle and regulator, angle iron, web belting and an electric motor. Works pretty good. Just fire it up, start the motor and start putting cases on the belt. They go through the flames, cool off going down the belt, then drop into a box. Pretty slick when you're doing 500 to 1000 cases (or more) at a time.

[wcmartin1]

That sounds like a nice setup.  I respect your opinion and understand about annealing cases to relieve stress due to work hardening and that it will extend your case life.  I know this to be true, but...

Based on experience, I have not found the need to anneal cases for the few (4-5) reloads that I plan to get out of 7.62 brass.  I have found this to be true even with '70s production Indian brass.  By annealing you will get more life out of a case, but for an M1A I won't press my luck.  I use surplus mil-spec brass in this rifle for it's stronger construction, but due to safety concerns will not reload them more than five times.  It's not worth it.  If someone wants to anneal them to extend their life for more than five reloads, go for it - but I will not be that man.

This is not the only rifle I reload for, but it is a 7.62 gas-gun and you must respect it as such and be very methodical in your reloading practices.  Your case prep may include annealing, but for my purposes I haven't seen the need in this particular instance.  However, if I wasn't able to successfully get 4-5 reloads I would.

I don't get split necks either.

The ammo this brass came from was in new condition (2003 dated headstamp).  It's bright and shiny and in much better condition than much of the other surplus cases I have reloaded over the years.  It's just seems to be harder, but not brittle as stated in my original post.

I'm not looking for advice or a solution to a non-existent problem.  I am just sharing information about these particular cases and will let you know how they perform for me.  I am hoping that they will last for 4-5 reloads as this ammo is available now from AIM Surplus and a couple of other places on the web and may prove to be another good source of hard to find mil-spec brass.

For those that are new to reloading here is something to think about...

http://www.fulton-armory.com/ReloadingThoughts.htm

And if you insist on annealing, here is some more info:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Regards.

[Nickle]

Newer production brass is usually no problem. I have gotten away with severa lreloading of LC 65 Match and FA64 Match brass and gotten away with it.

Oh, I should've mentioned. '70's vintage Indian isn't the same stuff as the newer Indian. The newer stuff is GARBAGE (that '70's stuff is OK, though). I reloaded some of the newer stuff, yup, worked out well, until I had a case head blowout (not a head sep), setting 3 more rounds in the mag and almost junked my Fed Ord M14. Cost me a stock, bolt, ejector and magazine, and a couple hundred $$$ in ER bills to get the metal out of my hand. I did learn how tough a cast receiver is, compared to a forged USGI bolt.

[wcmartin1]

Ouch!!

I have heard that about the newer Indian ammo, but so far have had good luck with the '70s production.  The ammo itself is not as accurate as some, but it is reloadable and believe it or not the '70s brass is actually heavier (stronger?) than Lake City by approximately 6-7 grains. 

[Son of Martha]

  Speaking of case prep, I took reloaded tracer in 5.56, 7.62, and .30 cal to BC.  We had one rain shower, so I passed out some to everybody and we had a little fun shoot while the rain lasted.

  Two of the shooters had occasional failures to fully feed--round would chamber but bolt would not quite lock.  One was an AR (which was tightest and was not able to lock and fire on some rounds), and as I recall the other was an M1 type (Garand or M1A).  That one would lock and fire.  As a safety note, I realize that you don't normally wanna fire cases under these circumstances-- if the hard locking is caused by excess case length it might pinch the bullet and cause pressure excursions.  In this case I knew the case length was within spec and the rounds were VERY lightly loaded (all my loaner ammo is).

  When I examined unfired extracted cases, the tight points seemed to be the case shoulder.  Both rifles were dirty, so was easy to see.  My take is that my resizing die is not setting the shoulder back quite far enough.  I am using a Lee full-length sizing die, and in that design you have it set so that the case holder touches the die mouth--so there is no way to adjust it in any further.

  VAshooter and AR180 were telling me that the RCBS (I think) dies will allow you to adjust how far the shoulder is set back.  They also recommended case gauges for the reloaded rounds, that would show both min and max shoulder setback and OAL.  (I think Stoney Point, not sure).

  My objective is to reload ammo that will reliably function in ANY firearm in the caliber.  I thought I had it, but spreading the reloads around showed the shortcomings of my method right quick.  Just a heads up for those who might be reloading for others, or if you think you might buy another rifle in the same caliber and want the ammo to work.

  Those of you who have been paying attention to "quality control" for reliability, what type dies/gauges do ya'll use?  I don't really want to re-invent the wheel here....

SoM

[wcmartin1]

I use Lee products.  You may not have the die seated in your press correctly.  Here is an excerpt from their instructions:

2 INSTALL SIZING DIE While holding the lever
all the way down against its stop, turn the sizing
die into the press until it touches the shellholder
(figure 4). Raise the lever (lower the ram) and turn
the die in an additional 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Lower the lever again, and use the ram to apply light pressure
to the base of the die. This will keep the die from turning as
one tightens the lock ring to secure the adjustment just made.
NOTE Carbide dies should not be turned in the additional
1/4 to 1/2 turn.

Another possibility is that you are using a Lee Collet Die that does not full-length resize, but neck sizes only which is fine (and sometimes preferred) for bolt guns if you are reloading for the same rifle, but dangerous in semi or fully automatic.

I have found all of my cases resized with Lee Dies are in spec.  I used to be so anal as to check every dimension with calipers, but now a quicker step is to put every prepped case into a Lyman Case Gauge before priming or charging them.  This is actually a small SAMMI-spec sized chamber that will allow you to easily tell if your cases are within tolerances.

Once again, I have had good success with Lee, but if Lee is still not getting it done for you I have buddies that swear by RCBS and Dillon.

[Son of Martha]

Yup, that's how I set them.

I have had uniformly good results with Lee products, which is why this was a surprise to me.  Thanks for the info, I will Google that gauge.

SoM