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Case Preparation

Started by Old Dog, July 02, 2007, 11:42:07 PM

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Old Dog

#60
December 26, 2008, 09:58:36 AM
Two things - 270 or 280 brass could be resized down to .308 brass as well.

You should also check the new case neck thickness.  That far down a 30.06 case the walls may be thicker than the walls at the neck.  If so you could be creating a pressure issue or chambering issue.  I have a Forster case trimmer I bought the outside neck turning accessories for.  This allows me to "shave" any excess metal off the neck to set the thickness back to what a .308 case would be.

Just something to think about.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

kissell

#61
December 26, 2008, 11:08:50 AM
OLD DOG, Great point. That was the first thing I checked was the neck O.D. and the neck wall thickness. Compared to the knocked down mil-spec 308 it was less than .001 between the two shells. After the initial cut down to 2.015", I did the sizing then checked the length again which had grown .001-.002". I re-trimmed the brass a second time and tried each shell in chamber of the new Springfield M1A I have, and viola! Good 308 brass from 30.06 brass. One note, this was L.C. brass loaded with blank loads for ceremonial use. However all mic-ings show this to be the same stuff as the mil-spec 30.06 loads I've bought. This is not to say I will not get chamber, as well as cartrige guages for both  M1Garand and M1A. These tool will help take the stupid out of my reloading!Ha ha. My next venture is to find the reason the 30.06 bulk loads are varing to the degree they are. Most are tight in the M1Garand and others seem to fall in beautifully. Know my chamber is not changing between rounds, so it has to be the shells. It is Berdan primed so foreign for sure. Don't think it is Greek, but maybe. It is the same batch but I feel not made to MY specs. If I have to knock down and resize to make use of I will. Got nothing else that will digest it. Latter.

Old Dog

#62
December 26, 2008, 11:56:57 AM
The greek surplus sold by the CMP is boxer primed and seems to be pretty decent brass and the headstamp is HXP with a two digit number representing the year of manufacture.

PM headed your way as well.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

kissell

#63
December 26, 2008, 02:57:55 PM
 Well, I'll have to try that Greek if available. Will try CMP. My ammo is headstamped AMA 89. Bet I won't forget where I buy ammo in the future. Still working on a quicker cut down method on those blank 30.06 cases to resize to the 308. The few more done, just for giggles mic-ed good in comparison to the knocked down 7.62x51 case. Happy as hell! Cutting the crimp out of the primer pockets has been a pain. Some are crimped a little more than others but, she is working o.k. now. I want you fellows I really appreciate this info. Being an old ex-jarhead, can't let my battle rifles die, my countrymen may need me some day. After all, without ammo you just got an expensive club!

wcmartin1

#64
December 26, 2008, 03:43:43 PM
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Pappy

#65
December 27, 2008, 12:52:55 AM
RCBS primer pocket swager Slow But it works and you only have to do it once,

You may run into case wall thickness issues during the 3006 to 308/762nato program so neck turning may be in order, Have you tryed to make 308 blank brass into useable brass??? Pappy
Which has greater value?...... Ammo will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no ammo..

kissell

#66
December 27, 2008, 06:46:48 AM
 I'll try that pocket swager and see how it works, got time, trying to save a buck. As far as the question of using blank ammo brass, yes ,that is exactly what I using. Most is the L.C. full crimped loads. I've not tried the ring crimped blank brass yet. Neck thickness is at no more than .0015 variation  above knocked down mil-spec loads. I tried the proceedure  of chambering the finished product with the stripped bolt, the dropped in like a charm. Have to say, I think the synthetic  lube used for sizing took the cases down a little tighter than hoped for. Not using the X-Die smallbase yet. Got antsy to get some good results by improvising.

kissell

#67
December 30, 2008, 07:06:10 PM
 Old Dog and all others, back again. Just ordered go-nogo gauges for the M1Garand to get down to the real business of finding the Old Garand's issue. Bad as I hate to say, I fear it is a head space issue. This  rifle is a Federal Ordnance Garand built in the 60's and is in very good cosmetic condition, but, I bought it from another person who never elaborated as it having any functioning issue. So, I got to do the check-out on it to rest my mind. I,ve fired it many times and it never failed, but, did chamber tight a couple times. However, I also had a op rod spring helping me! So I will get her smoothed out, no matter what is needed! Latter.

Old Dog

#68
December 30, 2008, 07:39:23 PM
Kissel, my objection to a small base die is using it if you don't have to as they "overwork" the brass if used when not needed (reducing the diameter of the case smaller than a standard die then when fired it expands to fired size).  Small base means diameter, not length, so a head space issue should not be cured by a small base die (unless I misunderstand most of what I think I've learned about reloading.)

I don't go to the trouble of removing my extractor and ejector to try loads in a rifle chamber.  For checking headspace with the headspace gauges, yes, remove the extractor and ejector, remove the op rod spring and op rod so you can see the bolt lug as it rotates downward into position - you are watching to see if the lug touches the receiver rail as the bolt rotates towards the closed position.

The brass can be too long, trim to length, or even a few thousands under (the 30.06 has a long neck and shortening a little won't hurt as the case is contacting the chamber on the shoulder, not the mouth of the case.

The next thing you have to make sure of it the bullet is not contacting the lands of the rifling as the bullet chambers.  Seat the bullet to the cartridge over all length you've been using and chamber the cartridge.  Slowly eject it and examine the bullet to see if you see little marks left by the lands around the bullet (if it is touching).

Either the bullet hitting the lands or the case neck being too long could cause a similar problem to what you describe.

If neither of the above is happening try shining up a case or two with fine steel wool and chambering them.  When you eject them do you see any type of scuff or scratch marks on the brass?  When I say chamber them I don't mean let them feed from the magazine/clip - drop it in the chamber and push the op rod fully forward (to make sure the cartridge/case is chambered, then eject it and examine the case.

You my need to use the small base dies if the chamber of your rifle is a little tighter than most rifles.  The good news is that if your chamber is tighter (diameter wise) than most M1's using the small base dies might be necessary but the brass cases won't be expanding to the size they would in another rifle and your dies shouldn't be so hard on the brass.

Keep looking and you'll find the problem and fix it.  Like we say, a rifleman perseveres, even when troubleshooting rifle and cartridge issues.  You are getting to know your rifle better and "making it yours."
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

kissell

#69
January 02, 2009, 09:14:00 AM
Old Dog, thanks again for great info. Got go-no-go gauges coming for the Garand just to make sure it spec. in.
Minimal investment for peace of mind. Went with Forster set.  Still working on 30.06 case cut downs to create 308 brass. Looking real good and mic-ing out .001 or less heavy on neck wall thickness. Seem to all be feeding good in the M1A. I've went thru about 700 empty brass of 30.06 sorting the full crimped brass for cut-down. and saving the other type I call red tip blank for .06 reloads. I'm holding off on the x-die until I've guaged the Garand.  Later.

kissell

#70
January 02, 2009, 02:19:02 PM
UPDATE--- Old Dog, just got my go-nogo gauges today, unfortunately my problem is to tight a chamber, ie; incorrect headspacing. Now looking for reputable gunsmith to correct problem. If this was a Springfield I would go to them, however, I've got a Federal Ordnance model. May check to see if they still are in business. At least I know the problem is not my ammo reloading. This rifle had this problem all along, good thing it is built well. Could have had a real boo-boo occur. Later.

kissell

#71
January 03, 2009, 11:08:28 AM
Back again, not so sure these readings are entirely
relative. The L.C. brass has been sizing down real good for the old Garand, even though the go gauge told me different. These are SAAMI specs., maybe the tighter chamber will work with my brass sizing. I'll have to check all other ammo prior to use. Another point on priming some 308/7.62x51 I made out of 30.06 brass. All were crimped primers so I cleaned out crimping, cleaned primer pocket and primed. A little proceedure I used to insure the primer was seated deep enough was to blacken the base of the cartridge and primer with a wide felt marker, let dry, then, using a paper shop towel placed on a flat piece of steel, slid the brass(base down) across the paper towel. If done correctly, the black should remain on the primer. Worked good.
I'll try a few loads, little lighter than standard in that Garand to see how my reworked brass functions. It may seem as an assumption, but, I kind-a-feel headspacing is an issue resolvable thru brass sizing in some instances. The go gauge tells me I'm too tight, yet, my reworked brass says other!

kissell

#72
January 04, 2009, 01:08:37 PM
A little clarification, the re-worked ammo is for my M1A, not the Garand. Fired 20+ rounds and it worked fine. Chroy readings were averaged at 2572fps with 42gr imr 4895. Will tweek to 42.4-42.8grs., looking for 2666fps. to make distance calculations easier. Also little easier on my rig. Fired brass show minimal growth and still in the 2.012 range. Primer backed up .001 on all cases. Still think thats O.K. for uncrimped settings. Compared to factory  7.62x51 ammo I fired, my reload showed less sidewall growth than the factory stuff. Think maybe the L.C. brass is better. Rainy here today so my next round of firing will have to wait.

Old Dog

#73
January 04, 2009, 10:57:04 PM
I've heard the differences in brass (from one lot to another, one manufacturer to another) leads to differences in the way it contracts or expands.

In other words, two different pieces of brass (different lot or manufacturer) may expand to the same size on firing (chamber is the limit, right!?) but one will shrink back to a slightly different size than the other.  Same deal on resizing.  They may both have the same OD (while inside the resizing die) but when pulled out one may "spring back" to a slighly larger OD than the other.

This may not be an issue in most rifles but could be in a rifle with a chamber on the small side.

Just for info.

Stick with it, you are learning about your rifles. 
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

kissell

#74
January 05, 2009, 05:21:15 AM
Old Dog, not trying to blow myself up or nothing, but I am still thinking, dispite Go gauges reading a little tight, that the true headspace is created  as a relationship between your specific cartridge, the bolt and the point of contact of the datum line to the rifle chamber. After all, is this not what wildcatters do in establishing new rounds. Now I not trying to create anything new, just after the true answer on the headspace issue and if my thinking is correct. I have not and will not fire any more ammo thru this rifle, dispite the 100's previously fired, until I 100% sure all DUCKS ARE IN ORDER. I will look at the avenue of a bolt swap first to bring this old girl back on line if need be. Re working the chamber may also be necessary.
To back up, picture this: On this Garand issue, bulk ammo seemed to run to tight, my reloads seemed to run to tight, full length resized brass seemed to run to tight and the go gauge seemed barely to tight not closing completely, but, L.C. full length resized brass drops in and closes easily on a stripped bolt. Maybe this leads me to the big question "Given a choice to having to fire a round from a rifle with too tight a chamber vs. excessive chamber space, how would chose?" Thanks for you advice.

Old Dog

#75
January 05, 2009, 12:23:23 PM
This is "guess" only based on lots of reading.  I've never had a case separation in a rifle or handgun.  The only cases I've had "blow" holes through the case wall were factory ammo and I only noticed the problem when picking up the brass and inspecting it.

Too tight a chamber can increase because it can restrict the neck/mouth of the case or push the bullet back into the case.  In this case a weak piece of brass could result in a case blow out down near the rim/base resulting in significant damage to the rifle.  Even with no immediate evidence of a case wall rupture the increase chamber pressure is creating extra wear on your bolt and receiver.

A chamber with "long" headspace usually isn't a pressure issue but with a weak piece of brass could result in a separated case which while releasing some gas back into the action it probably won't be as bad as the results of the case rupture talked about above.  There are many instances of case separation that the shooter isn't aware of until the next round fails to chamber.  However, reloading brass from a rifle with excessive headspace can result in short brass life and an increased tendency for case separations.

My son's PolyTech would swallow a .308 field ga. (it was so loose it would rattle in and out of the chamber).  I replaced the bolt with a GI (H&R M14) bolt and everything is cool now.  However, the rifle had digested hundreds of rounds of surplus SA 7.62X51 ammo with no sign of problems as the cases were fired once and tossed away/scrapped.

If I was reloading for a bolt action rifle with "long" headspace and it still shot well enough to suit me I'd just segregate my brass for that rifle, neck size only and keep reloading and shooting it.  It can be tough to do that with a semi-auto rifle.  Semi-auto rifles can be "picky" as you are finding out.

Hope you find someone to correct the problems on your M1 so you can get it back to the range and feel good about it.  You know, now that you have the headspace ga. you might thing about taking it to a local gunshow and trying some different bolts from some of the vendors there.  You might find one that cures your problem without having to have the chamber recut.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

kissell

#76
January 06, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
Well guys, I finally broke down and took the M1Garand to a gunsmith to look at and he felt the old girl was safe to fire using the proceedure I had explained of custom making my brass, but, the proceedure of the fix was a lot less than expected. I feel so stupid but $50.00 worth of rechambering work will solve my problem. Of course I sure he's cutting me a deal. This guy is going to re-cut the chamber to specs. to match where it is supposed to be. Sometimes the fear of the illness is worse than the medicine it takes to cure it. Now back to reloading!

Talon

#77
January 06, 2009, 07:06:43 PM
Quote from: kissell on January 06, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
Now back to reloading!

And maybe even some Appleseeding!

kissell

#78
January 06, 2009, 08:07:04 PM
You are so right! Working on a local 22 cal. program for local youth and others interested in the art of shooting at my farm. Getting set up a range compatable for this function. Appleseed I attended inspired me to do so. Also looking at finding a way to convince U.S. Government to set up a local range at the old Jefferson Proving Ground recently abandoned for some real shooting training. This was a 60,000 acre complex for munitions testing from the 50's thru 2003. Lots of soil yet to be put to good use.

Talon

#79
January 06, 2009, 08:07:35 PM
Quote from: kissell on January 06, 2009, 08:07:04 PM
You are so right! Working on a local 22 cal. program for local youth and others interested in the art of shooting at my farm. Getting set up a range compatable for this function. Appleseed I attended inspired me to do so. Also looking at finding a way to convince U.S. Government to set up a local range at the old Jefferson Proving Ground recently abandoned for some real shooting training. This was a 60,000 acre complex for munitions testing from the 50's thru 2003. Lots of soil yet to be put to good use.

O0

kissell

#80
January 16, 2009, 10:41:45 AM
Sorry Talon, this range is being constructed on my 52 acres. Still in the works but will happen. I'm an avid shooter and expect to see new avid shooter come about to take my place. What's your story? Got any where for young people to shoot, no, keep in touch and I'll have it for you. S.E. Indiana location well in the country.

mtmisfit

#81
January 17, 2009, 03:14:18 AM
Quote from: kissell on January 06, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
Well guys, I finally broke down and took the M1Garand to a gunsmith to look at and he felt the old girl was safe to fire using the proceedure I had explained of custom making my brass, but, the proceedure of the fix was a lot less than expected. I feel so stupid but $50.00 worth of rechambering work will solve my problem. Of course I sure he's cutting me a deal. This guy is going to re-cut the chamber to specs. to match where it is supposed to be. Sometimes the fear of the illness is worse than the medicine it takes to cure it. Now back to reloading!

Very easy fix if you have a pull-through reamer. You put the reamer in the chamber and it is turned from the muzzle end.  When the bolt closes the headspace is correct.
"Count it the greatest sin to prefer life to honor, and for the sake of living to lose what makes life worth having."

"Lo Que Sea, Cuando Sea, Donde Sea"

".. You MUST learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself..."

"central planning cannot work because it is trying to substitute an individual all-knowing intelligence for a distributed and fragmented system of localized but connected knowledge."

"Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly."

kissell

#82
January 20, 2009, 06:22:42 AM
That is all fine if you have this reamer. I don't. Simpler to have it done by someone qualified to do so for $50.00. than to spend $150.00 for a reamer I'd most likely use once. Do not  intend pursuing another profession but will do my own work to keep shootin' irons alive and well when ever feasibly.

kissell

#83
January 23, 2009, 06:41:23 AM
Back from the range, fired the M1A with the reloads made up from the cut-down 30.06 L.C. brass. Got the 2666 velocity +/- off a Imr 4895 42.2 gr. load with a 150 gr. FMJBT. Did not get any groups yet, only velocities. Having scope issues with the mount and yeah, I know, Get a Springfield mount and the problem will be solved. Agreed! All functioning was good, no pressure indications, brass extracted nicely with gas-off.Feel I found the loading I'm looking for. Next loads will be the annealed cases to see if any additional growth occurs in the necks with the 42.2 gr. loads. So far minimial growth in the cases and mic-ings fall in the NATO once fired brass mic-ings.

Pappy

#84
May 30, 2011, 01:29:23 PM
Hello Group; In the past month or so I have ran into quite a few (Ringers).
The ring is what is left in the case after the decapping pin pops out the base of the the primer cup leaving the ring stuck in the primer pocket. This is caught during the primer pocket swagging stage, or the primer seating stage on commercial brass.
The ring can sometimes be removed from 38-357 pistol brass with a hook tool and a rod going inside the case. The ring in a Rifle case well that's another story.
So Gentlemen, DO YOU have any good (working) ideas on how to save the brass from the scrap bucket???? Most of this is GI brass, some looks like it may have been wet at one time or another, possibly from outdoor storage prior to sale to end users.

Thanks Pappy

Which has greater value?...... Ammo will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no ammo..

Old Dog

#85
May 30, 2011, 04:39:00 PM
I've had a few (5 or 6) over the last couple of years.  Some come out easier that others.  I've used a pick (one of the little picks in the 4 pick set (one is straight, one a 90 degree angle, one like a shepherd's hook and one that is like two sides of the equilateral triangle attached to the shaft at one corner).  Sometimes I've been successful just hooking the tip of the 90 degree hook under the inside/bottom edge of the ring and prying it out.  Sometimes I've had to drive the tip of the straight one down between the ring and the primer pocket wall.  I had one I had to make repeated scrapes (each removing a little of the metal) in the same spot to weaken it enough to collapse inward when pryed with the with the pick.

If I'd had more issues with it I had planned to look for a series of drill bits that started small and worked larger till the last one was barely smaller than the OD of the ring.  This works for me on brake line replacements.  Those darn Fords have some pieces that the auto parts stores don't carry/can't get and if the brake line is rusted into the fitting it can be a pain to get out (the line twists in two when the fitting is screwed out of the wheel cylinder/t-block vs. the fitting spinning on the brake line/tubing).  I use a couple/three (been awhile) small drill bits.  Start with the small one, drill all the way through, go to the next one, etc.  By the time I get to the last one the remaining wall of the brake line/tubing is so thin (and hot from previous drilling) that it twists loose from the fitting/t-block and pulls out on the drill bit - leaving the fitting/t-block undamaged and ready for resuse.  I don't know for a fact this approach would work with brass and that broken off primer ring but I was going to give it a try.

Good luck with it.  Oh, might not hurt to spray some kroil or WD40 on it first (don't know that would help in this case but I've usually done this on the brake fittings prior to actually twisting the line in two getting the fitting out.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

Nickle

#86
May 31, 2011, 10:33:44 AM
A primer pocket uniformer works too, but most reloaders don't have or need them. Mostly a target shooter thing. I generally toss the case out, unless I can fix it in short order.
They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . ".  Lord Percy

Sounds like New Englanders to me.

douglas34474

#87
May 31, 2011, 02:49:15 PM
Quote from: kissell on January 05, 2009, 05:21:15 AM
Old Dog, not trying to blow myself up or nothing, but I am still thinking, dispite Go gauges reading a little tight, that the true headspace is created  as a relationship between your specific cartridge, the bolt and the point of contact of the datum line to the rifle chamber. After all, is this not what wildcatters do in establishing new rounds. Now I not trying to create anything new, just after the true answer on the headspace issue and if my thinking is correct. I have not and will not fire any more ammo thru this rifle, dispite the 100's previously fired, until I 100% sure all DUCKS ARE IN ORDER.

If you can find any record of an M1 Garand ever letting loose because of excess headspace, I'd love to see it; cause it won't happen.

The spec M1 chamber measures 1.942" to the datum line.
The spec cartridge for the M1 measures 1.948 to the datum line.
The cartridge is 0.005" longer than the chamber it is intended to go into.

I only joined into this thread because of the "not trying to blow myself up" comment. This is total bunk. When in use by the services, not one M1 was reported to have ever blown up.

Pappy

#88
June 03, 2011, 06:31:37 PM
Hello Group; Thanks for your in put on the RINGER issue, at this point it realy is not worth the time to mess with a long drawn out process to save a piece of 7.62 brass from the scrap hopper, weight is weight... If I can hook it out cool if I can`t it will go with the once fired primers.  :) Again Thanks, Pappy
Which has greater value?...... Ammo will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no ammo..
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