Failure to extract brass from custom build

[RODGE]

This thread follows one I started on 19 Sept. entitled "bolt operates far too fast and hammers bolt stop pin...etc.".  Most of the issues I had to begin with have been resolved due to information and suggestions from the earlier thread.  Special thanks goes out to Douglas34474 as his help has been very accurate.  Today at the range, I fired 10 rds. of CCI Standard Velocity and 10 rds. of Winchester M-22 with NO problems.  Every round fed, fired and extracted as expected until I shot the 23rd round.  It failed to extract and was difficult to remove (tight).  I cleared the rifle, loaded and locked the partially used mag and fired 3 more rds. only to have the same results again.  The round again was difficult to remove from the chamber.  It appears that the chamber is tight.  Any ideas?

[Charles McKinley]

What type of lube is on the shells?  Have you used anything with a waxy coating on it?  The bulk  CCI blazer gets so sticky I have failure to eject problems with a Savage Mark II bolt it I don't keep the chamber clean.

[RODGE]

The CCI 10 rds. wasn't bulk.  It was standard velocity from 50rd. boxes.  The Winchester M-22 was bulk.  I just checked 3/4 of them but don't think there is excessive lub on them.  If you would, Stand, take a look at the previous thread I referred to for background on the many problems I've had with this build.  I haven't cleaned the chamber or bore yet from firing this afternoon.  The M-22 rds. are not plated rds. but don't appear to have wax on them.  I can't see or feel any lub from them.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Rodge,

I followed the other thread with great interest.  Will the shells cycle by hand?

Have you determined if it is a Benz chamber or a match chamber for a bolt?  What did the vendor say about your previous problems?

I would send a PM to Douglas.  He has done a ton of these rifles.

Hope you can get it running well.

[eaglescouter]

The failure to extract took place after shooting a number of rounds without problem.  I suspect either a dirty chamber or a bad extractor.

[The Wolfhound]

Winchester M-22 claims to be plated in a "black" copper plating.  You should not see lube issues with it.  If I recall CCI Standard is a 40Grn lead round nose that is lubed.

[RODGE]

First and foremost, I want to thank everyone has had some input to this thread.  I do appreciate that.  I had super cleaned the bore and chamber before firing those 23 some odd rds. on Sunday.  I had filed the extractor hook after removing it from the bolt as per Douglas34474.  Rich at MOA Corp. who chambered the barrel and mounted the SS receiver indicated the chamber was a 'match chamber'.  Cartridges will chamber and extract manually just fine, at least they did before firing.  Didn't try that after the 23rd round. 
We're getting a lot of rain today, so my plan is to next, go shoot about 15 rounds of several brands and types or until I have a malfunction.  I need the practice anyway.  Haven't shot very much lately.  I will clean the chamber and bore after each brand change.  This way I'll find the rounds that are problems, if that is the problem, (got my doubts about that).  I'm beginning to think the chamber is just too darn snug.  If so, I would expect to have a problem with all the rounds after a certain number.  I saved most of the brass from Sunday and plan to check for a possible out of round chamber by putting the mic to several pieces of brass.  Dealing with some family health issues as of today, so am not sure when I can get all this done.   Thanks again, especially for the patience.

[jmdavis]

Different ammo uses different lube and results in chamber differences at different rates. And no I wasn't trying to see how many times I could use "different" in a single sentence.

The point is that you should not and likely will not see the problem at the same rate with all ammo. I have match chambers on a number of .22 rifles (but no semi's). I also have match chamber on several semi .22lr bullseye pistols.  They all tend to become snug after enough shots. I only shoot standard velocity ammo in them, and generally the least expensive that I use is CCI standard. The worst for a tight chamber are the thickly waxed lubed rounds (such as the Remington Surplus sold in the past few years by CMP. But this ammo shoots VERY well in my bolt guns and my pistols. The best as far as the tight chambers go is Eley. It is lubed with a thin coat of lube and shoots well too.

[douglas34474]

What ammo where you shooting when it failed to extract? The CCI or Win 22?

I have had Blaser give me a fit with a couple of Keystone Sporting Arms barrels. If you looked closely the cartridge case had a slight swelling of the side wall at the rim. This would get jammed tight into the chamber mouth and the round would fail to extract. I wound up taking some 600 grit sand paper taped to a short length of 1/8" diameter brass rod and honing the mouth of the chamber.

You still need that bolt stop pin. I had a CRS moment on that.

[RODGE]

Was shooting the Win 22 when the first round failed to extract.  I do intend to pay more attention to the spent brass from now on, especially when having any issue.  I have some Aquila, (in the yellow/blue box) and some Eley Match which I've not tried in this rifle.  Thanks all.   Will get back again.

[RODGE]

On Sat. with the rifle super cleaned, I fired a little over 200 rounds of CCI Standard Velocity.  No feeding problems, no stove pipes, failure to extract or eject, three times.   All three times it was the first round of the mag, and the round did not fire but would not extract manually.  In each of the three cases, the round simply did not go into full battery.  All three were after firing 175-180 rounds.  These 200 rds. were over a period of time, probably 2 hours, and the bull barrel was never hot.  I do believe the firing chamber is a little too snug.  What do you think?

[douglas34474]

The problem I had was with unfired rounds. Look at an unfired round. Is the side wall PERFECTLY straight or is there a slight bulge at the bottom, towards the rim? If you have a caliper or mic measure it. Try dropping an unfired round in the chamber by hand. Does it enter all the way with no help or does it stop short of going completely  home?

[RODGE]

No rounds fall completely to the rim, fired or unfired.

[douglas34474]

How far does an unfired round lack falling into the chamber under it's own weight?

I would not expect fired rounds to enter the chamber with ease. But even with a match chamber an unfired round should enter the chamber completely.

[RODGE]

Nearly all rounds I've dropped into the chamber after a thorough cleaning, stay out about the thickness of 2 to 3 rim thicknesses.  I can push them on in with my finger, then probably 1 in 10 won't manually extract.

[douglas34474]

If you look closely at the rounds that stick you will likely find a VERY slight increase in the case diameter. You can take 600 grit sand paper taped to a 1/8" wood dowel, chuck it up in a drill motor and polish just the first 1/4" or less of the chamber to open it up.

Also look at the hook on the extractor. The OEM one has a rather steep slope to it where it contacts the extractor cut in the barrel. With the rifle turned belly up, watch the extractor as it goes into that slot. It will move away from the rim of the cartridge. When the round gets jammed in the tight chamber the extractor hook is cammed out away from the main part of the rim and only contacts the very edge of it. Rather than grabbing and pulling the unfired case out, the tip of the hook will slide off and over the rim.

To correct this all you need do is slightly make the slope of the extractor hook lower. This will make the hook cam out less and will cause it the catch the rim rather than ride over it. Leave about 0.015" of the slope untouched at the tip of the hook. You don't want the hook making contact with the edge of the extractor cut in the barrel but you do want the camming out of the hook to be at a minimum.

Work slow, make small cuts and check often. All you need is a small flat file, the OEM extractor is not hardened. You can also improve the extractor by removing a small amount of metal between the hook and the square lug at the extractors other end. You remove this metal from what would be the inside of the extractor. Take off more at the hook end. This will make the hook of the extractor effectively longer and place more spring load of the extractor tip on the side of cartridge case. This will help prevent stove pipes.