Author Topic: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST  (Read 7520 times)

Offline hawkhavn

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Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« on: September 02, 2008, 08:10:21 AM »
All,

Not quite sure where to post this, but since they are going to be discussing last week's Gibsonburg, OH shoot it seemed like a close fit.  Tonight at 11 Eastern, Breda of the Breda Fallacy will be on GunNuts blogtalkradio to talk about her experiences..
Here's the link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/gunnuts

Get registered early, I understand there is a live chat session that streams along with the show.
This will be a good chance to hear what others think about the program, if you get a chance to participate, remember it's SOM, SOM.  Stay on message, stay on mission.  There is a call in number listed on the web page.

Hawkhavn

Offline funfaler

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 08:42:22 AM »
Thanks for sharing!

I have read two of her three postings aboub her experience.  This is exciting to think that Appleseed ball keeps rolling and keeps getting bigger  :D

Might I suggest that we all familiarize ourselves with the up coming shoots, their locations and dates, just so you have a "flavor" of the Appleseed furture.   

Lastly, don't be shy giving out the web site, it is the best way for us to communicate to others, especially those that are computer people.


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Offline Fred

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 12:52:08 AM »

      A pretty poor round-up of Appleseed, with the general criticisms being Appleseed was "too political", the instructors are "black helicopter types", selling weird conspiracy literature in the parking lot, and wearing combat uniforms and MOLLE gear.

      In addition, the consensus was there was a lot of "politics" talked about at Appleseed - somehow, they got thru the whole radio thing without mentioning "Rev War" even once...and I'm not sure the word "history" was used, either.

       Another consensus (on the show): Appleseed is not for newbies, even if it was a "basic" program. (There was definitely a hint of "false advertising" hanging in the air.)

      The radio host expressed concern about the "70 bucks" charged, when the instructors were all volunteers.

      Breda was the most positive; another person who said he'd been to two Appleseeds, one of which he didn't shoot at, was more negative.

     There was a lot of damning with faint praise: yes, Appleseed has some value, but is definitely doing a disservice to "newbies" when it lures them there.

      Summing up: typical internet-type "I don't care what you do, it's not gonna be perfect, and I can criticize you for it."
     
     Summing up, II: Listening to this radio interview, I would not want to come to an Appleseed.

     Summing up, III: They made the common mistake of not putting the program in context - or even understanding the context - and then taking too limited a view of the program, which was pretty obvious. Whereas most instructors think the history is more important than the marksmanship, AS was evaluated solely as a marksmanship program.

     Did anyone else hear the show, and come up with a different take?
     
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Offline hawkhavn

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 01:07:06 AM »
I listened in, but as I am on dial-up couldn't call in as well.

I did make several comments that were on the on-line discussion about the newbie we had at Riley this week that shot an iron sighted bolt action and scored a 213.  No one seemed to pick up on that.  Breda was a positive.

They only had 34 folks signed in for the show.

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Offline Scout

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 01:20:16 AM »
Some of the folks were the same ones from the blogs where they were badmouthing Appleseed without ever having gone to one.

Where have we ever had black helicopter guys selling any kind of non appleseed lit in the parking lot??

These people sound like yuppies just chatting, nothing about them says anything to me about them having any credentials for having a radio talk show other than they just happen to have one. And where is their work on any kind of 2A program? Geeze, I have never seen more "If it didn't originate here, it is no good" than these guys on blogs/talks  ;)
 

We could have the same talk show if we wanted. I told you about the interent radio company that will set us up, do all the promo for us and host our radio show and blog.

    
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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 01:23:47 AM »
I tried registering and signing in about 10:45 PM.

I finished with all that crap, and the show was over and the chat shut down by the time I finished it at 11:45 PM.

I think my dial-up is too slow for net radio, I just kept hearing the same bit over and over with an annoying British-sounding "Blog Radio" stuck in between reruns of the same clip.

It also sounded like the hosts weekend with Todd Jarrett at Blackwater had to have been more important and have a higher "star value" than Breda and Appleseed.

Buckshot
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 01:25:39 AM by Buckshot »

Offline Guy

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 10:01:28 AM »
Well well well.

Haven't even been to one and are dissing it?  How Jr. High.

Typical of amerika today, where everything is a 15 second soundbite and too many folks think that fame can be found sitting in their underwear in front of a computer screen in their mama's basement.  Not hearnig the "show", I shall reserve full judgement until later.

For now though, I hope that they get to an Appleseed soon, ID themselves (although we should know them by the pastey white skin and the fact that they are still wearing just underwear!  LOL!), and give it an honest try for a weekend our way.  One would think that since they are conservative they would want to do a good job of reporting by getting the whole story instead of making it up like what happens on T.V.

Or they can continue being jut like all the other empty heads out there spouting off oppinoins as fact and losing crediblity among all but those whom also sit in their underwear in their mama's basement.

And quite frankly, they can have them folks.

Will listen tonight.

Offline VAshooter

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 10:46:55 AM »
I listened to the show and came away with mixed feelings. Breda was a new shooter. We loaned her a rifle and equipment and taught her how to shoot. We only had her for one day. Since she was new we had someone watching her all day. I thought she did well for someone so inexperienced and I thought her remarks were honest and accurate.

The host of the show was trying to be objective but he had just got back from a weekend at Blackwater so he was hyped on run and gun. The other guy was an Appleseed detractor because his universe revolved around tacticool run and gun games. The two of these guys couldn't resist trying to tear down everything Breda said that was good about the program. The consensus of their argument was Appleseed will not prepare you for the Steel Challange.

Whenever they asked Breda a question she responded with great answers. Once she told the tacticool guy that shooting at paper seemed to make more sense (I'm paraphrasing here) because you could see where you hit while shooting at steel was just a hit or miss thing. She was exactly right.  She said that a sling gave you support and made you steadier, Bingo!! Her detractors said putting on a sling would take too long in run and gun. Duh!!! She mentioned Truculent Turtle, ACPjunkie and Posterboy and described how someone was always there to answer her questions and help her. She mentioned sight alignment and natural point of aim a number of times and how she finally "got it".

I have never seen the black helocopter types at an Appleseed but his description of an overweight guy in camo and military LBE perfectly describes the guys at a run and gun match.

The tacticool guy obviously knew more about shooting than Breda did but I'll bet that her one day of Appleseed training prepared her to kick tacticools ass in any regular shooting match. If she goes to the run and gun match he invited her to I hope it doesn't turn her into a trigger jerker like the rest of those turkeys.

VAshooter

Offline funfaler

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 11:10:38 AM »
Wow, not sure they could have been more off base, if they really tried.

I have heard a great amount of BS about Appleseed, and these folks were able to encompass all of them, plus make up some along the way.

It is a shame that everyone could not be the smart and savvy "guys like them", so well rounded in their skills, knowledge, and perceptions.  

Breda was the only one that was not "high", and it showed.  It is a tough deal to have a first timer, with the fire hose just removed, to do justice to the program.  It does give us some perspective on how better to prepare folks to speak about Appleseed.   I think if I can find a "supplier", I may get high and see if I understand what they were saying. ::) >:(

Perhaps we will have to supply a crack pipe instead of a T-shirt for some folks. >:( >:(

The good thing, that we can take away from this is to perhaps to give folks a "one liner" that they can take home, that we can drill into them, that gives them the "What Appleseed is about".  Appleseed is about teaching foundational rifle marksmanship skills and honoring those Americans that have come before us, that have passed on our Heritage and Traditions.

We are ALWAYS going to have dopes that "just don't get it".  It is not what "I would do, so it must be wrong!".....We will deal with this until the end of time, because Appleseed is just so different than what modern Americans have been conditioned to think about shooting, or better said, they have so embraced their ignorance, that it is what they love.

Dude....If we just grew more weed and blew more snow...we could...like...just really....like....make Appleseed so awsome...and like...really cool....and like...you know.....like way better.....and like....we could like....have like maybe a hundred Appleseeds in a whole year....like people might actually come out.....and like way cool dude....

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Offline indyjoe

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 11:40:24 AM »
For now though, I hope that they get to an Appleseed soon, ID themselves (although we should know them by the pastey white skin and the fact that they are still wearing just underwear!  LOL!), and give it an honest try for a weekend our way.  One would think that since they are conservative they would want to do a good job of reporting by getting the whole story instead of making it up like what happens on T.V.

You'd probably like be able to like tell like who they are by like how they like talk and stuff.  Or someone who can't like get out a sentence without like swearing.

I can't help but make a correlation between those on this show and continual grad students.  They want to train, train, train and play "games" in this "sport" instead of getting to the real world.  Then you get things like the host talking about how he never does the show sober.  Really?  That is sad.

I have shot rifle a little bit throughout my life, including trying to learn how to shoot to be on Rifle Team in college and not doing well.  Then I shot the action pistol games like USPSA.  Before this weekend (my first Appleseed), I would consider myself inexperienced in rifle.  My nephew had never shot ANYTHING but a BB gun.  He thrived.

For the host to say this is not for beginners is sadly laughable.  After half a day of instruction, my nephew is shooting in sitting position and scoring all shots on the 300 yard prone target, when he accidentally shot the wrong one.  My groups when sighting in my LTRs before the weekend, resting on a bag, were laughably larger than many of my second day prone groups.  In two days, I am an extremely improved shooter.  I scored a 207, when two days before I thought someone was playing a joke on me with the size of those 400 yard targets at 25 meters.

Are shooting positions painful?  Yes, for some.  I missed 8 shots on sitting the first day, because my knee came out of socket.  It hurt.  I've had knee problems.  I pushed on.  Shot the first sequence the second day staying seated.  Then got back into transitions and found a way to make it work for me.  Trying new things hurts a little.  That is why it is called getting out of your comfort zone.  I'm overweight, not in the best shape.  That will make it a little harder.  Boo, hoo, deal with it.

What I didn't learn how to do at Appleseed: Clear a house with a $2000 tacticool black rifle.  What I did learn how to do at Appleseed: Drop someone trying to do me harm with said rifle, before I'm bigger than the red dot on his optical sight, which is more expensive than my whole rifle.

There were many brand new rifle shooters at our Riley shoot.  I would be willing to bet the EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE SHOOTERS could kick the hosts ass at a high power shoot.  EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.  Heck, one shooter specifically kept from shooting a rifle until he found somewhere to learn.  He shot a 213 with a bolt action.  Good thing Appleseed is not for beginners.  ::)

The comments about not liking to sit around an hear the stories about April 19th just highlight what is wrong with this country.  People don't care about anything that doesn't address them directly.  It is sad if you don't see the relevance of what the founding citizens of this country did.

The language and lack of openmindedness will assure that I never listen to this podcast again.  Time would be better spent dry firing at an outlet's grounding hole to get past 210.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 01:26:13 PM by indyjoe »
"It dosen't require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires to people's minds."  Samuel Adams

Offline VAshooter

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 12:16:33 PM »
The Guy,

Why should they come to an Appleseed? It hurts!

They could go to a three gun match dressed in camo and carrying a rifle with a tactical sling, a pistol in a drop leg holster and a shotgun. Oh yea, thirty seven magazines and a case of ammo. Rambo wears the same gear in his movies.

VAshooter

Offline zercool

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2008, 12:17:58 PM »
Just finished listening to the tape. No, it was not all complimentary to our program. Nor should we expect it to be. We are doing it Our Way, which is not the same as Their Way, and another person will be more than happy to tell you about His Way.

We DO need to listen to some of what's being said, though. Particularly instructors and riflemen - pay attention! Is someone having trouble with a bum knee? Sit with them and figure out what will work best.

Paper vs. steel - paper gives you the talking target, we all know this. Steel gives immediate, gratifying feedback. At the mini-seed in VanEtten last week, I was making hits on an 8" plate at 200yd - with my .22, doping the hold-over and windage. I'd NEVER have been able to do that pre-AS, and popping steel IS more fun than paper at long ranges.

We're not a run'n'gun, period - disregard.

What really needs to be considered, though, is how we're being perceived in forums like this. We're bashing critics of our program because they're "yuppies", because they're "trigger-jerkers", and so on and so forth. Bluntly put, these folks have a much wider following than the Appleseed forum, and if we can make nice and get them to come check it out, they can do us a world of good. Calling them names and saying that Our Way is the Only Way is not going to win us any converts.

Just my $.02.

Offline Ahab

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 01:07:53 PM »
Wow, a lot's happened here since last night's show.  I emailed Fred and he was kind enough to approve my account, since there have been some points raised both about my show and my coverage of Appleseed that I felt should be addressed.  If you're wondering who this is, I am Caleb (or Ahab, depending) the host of Gun Nuts Radio and author of Call me Ahab.

I'll start with the fluffy stuff first so we can get that out of the way, and then get to the meat of the issue.

1.  The comment about me "never doing the show sober" is what is commonly referred to as "a joke".  While I often enjoy adult beverages, I certainly wouldn't get intoxicated while running that provides part of my income.
2.  Sorry about the swearing actually - I am a little excitable as well, and have been known to drop the occasional bad word, but the intent is never to offend.  In fact, I'm often surprised when I listen to the broadcast later to hear where I did swear, because I never actually remember doing it.
3.  As to the "black helicopters comment" - that was not made by me, but by a guest on the show, and does not reflect or represent my or the views of the show.  If you'd like to take Chris to task for his statement, he's a big boy and can handle it.

That should do it for the silly little topics that would (I assume) impugn my character.  Now on to the meat and potatoes issues.

I committed this morning on my blog to attend an Appleseed shoot as soon as I got the opportunity; and I'm as good as my word so I still plan on doing that.  I'm hoping that the forum members who referred to us as pasty guys sitting in our mother's basement isn't representative of the welcome I'll receive, but I'm willing to take that chance.

Now, if you guys want to disagree with what was said on the show, that's fine.  We are after all on the same side here - I want to win people over to the shooting sports and connect them with their 2nd Amendment heritage just as much as you do.  What I do ask is that you cool it with the personal attacks and underwear commando comments - like zercool said, doing stuff like insulting people doesn't help spread Appleseed's message whatsoever.  I would love to see a program like Appleseed become hugely successful and give new and experienced shooters a deeper connection with their history, but if this is how you treat people who don't necessarily "get" what all you're doing, it's not going to help.

P.S.  VAShooter - The tacticool guy was someone else, I'm the one who invited Breda to come to a steel challenge match in Indianapolis.

The invite is open to anyone else of course, although I won't be able to provide firearms and ammo for them.
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Offline Guy

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 01:41:52 PM »
Good, and glad to have you.

All I, and most here want, is for folks to come, learn the absolute basics, and see some improvement.

BTW, I hope you are not like the sterotpye I described.  Might get sunburned...LOL!

Just keep an open mind and enjoy it when you get there.

PM me and let me know the when and wheres.  I will be sure to treat you like all the rest.  Like I said earlier, will listen in tonight.

Guy

ps, I have been known to drop a few bombs in my own time.  One of my constant struggles.

See you there!

Offline Scout

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2008, 02:15:05 PM »

Guy and funfaler, you guys are cracking-me-up!!! Thanks, after last night I still had that kind of bad dream taste in my mouth from their show last night." We will know them by their pasty skin and wearing only underware" (and fuzzy slippers) ;D ;D;D

Breada tried to stay on track, and the young lady Squeaky was a sobering ;) influence later in the show.

And I would like to say that Sebastion, from one of the blogs that were dissing Appleseed, did agree to go to an event before he posted anymore opinions about it. We will see.

The arrogance of thinking that any program that does not teach the way you do is "out of line" is just so bizarre, it is hard to fathom. Especially when we have such a high rate of success and happiness with the program.

I might poke fun at the people who are saying that Appleseed is a black helicopter program and is painfull,.. ouch!, or that we are fanatical and scary...or that we are not doing it right because we are not using their methods, but;

I would never diss another program for getting new shooters on the line, telling them about the history of their country and letting them know they are needed to help spread the 2A rights message.

How is this wrong by any stretch of the imagination? One or two guys maybe not completely thrilled, out of forty , with the rest really happy about their new rifle skills and willing to join in and defend the 2Amendment. This is a bad thing?

I can't say this better than funfaler has already said it. Quote below;

"We are ALWAYS going to have dopes that "just don't get it".  It is not what "I would do, so it must be wrong!".....We will deal with this until the end of time, because Appleseed is just so different than what modern Americans have been conditioned to think about shooting, or better said, they have so embraced their ignorance, that it is what they love."


What really needs to be considered, though, is how we're being perceived in forums like this. We're bashing critics of our program because they're "yuppies", because they're "trigger-jerkers", and so on and so forth. Bluntly put, these folks have a much wider following than the Appleseed forum, and if we can make nice and get them to come check it out, they can do us a world of good. Calling them names and saying that Our Way is the Only Way is not going to win us any converts.

Just my $.02.

Zero, the only thing I have to dissagree with, is I have never heard anyone say that Appleseed is the only way. I have never said it, and I have never heard anyone else say it, never. Appleseed may be the only way we teach, but we have always said that APpleseed is not the end, it is the beginning.

We are not dissing any of the programs out there, we never have as far as I know. But for someone to say that appleseed is not worthy because it does not teach you how to bust down a door and empty a ten round mag into a target three feet from you is kind of silly. Not the show guys, but commentary from around the web on shooting blogs.

We have never professed to do that. We have never professed to be anything other than what we are. A rifle marksmanship organization that teaches folks how to shoot at four minutes of angle out to 500 yards in different positions and reloading while under time constarints, and promoting understanding of our heritage and of those men who came before us so that we could have a United States of AMerica.

  And none of this is anything against you Zerocool. You are on your way to becoming a good instructor and you have some valid points, so please don't take this as a personal attack. I am just using your post as a step up to my stump. ;) ;D ;D And a place to post my opinions on it.

Yes, they could reach people for us, but their crowd has for the most part, has already chosen a path they wish to follow. Gear and tactical approaches, and those are valid approaches. Just not APpleseed. Maybe APpleseed graduates if they choose. Just not our method of getting people on the line.

Not any less important for those poeple, just not us, and they do not have to be. We welcome any school or methods that get people off of their buts and onto the firing line. That is the real essence of our program, and should be the real essence of any program.

However, I think we could well spend many hours of talking to them about Appleseed and never convince them of it's worth as a place for people wanting to build the foundation of their rifle shooting. Much more effective in my mind and proven in some cases, are the efforts to get in touch with organizations such as the Daughters and Sons of The American Revolution. Or to get our website out on local and National radio talk shows. That would get us some promotion and quick.

I have started writing to all the smaller, local radio talk shows across the U.S. I am asking them to let us come on and be interviewed. If you would like to get involved with this effort, just PM me and we can start setting it up. I worked on Oklahoma last night attempting to get us on "Heartland " Radio.

I can't push this enough. Instead of trying to get a radio personality, or blog radio to talk about us, let's get on a radio show ourselves and toot our own horn. Get our own blogs into the national scene. We know who we are, and we are our own best tooters.

Thanks for getting me on to this track Zerocool, I owe you one and dinner is on me when we meet up ;) :D ;D


Added after submitting for post;

I see that Ahab has joined the forum, so maybe one of my premisses are wrong ;) ;D ;D. Maybe we can get some of these blog folks, not to come around to our thinking, but to see it as just as valid a program for rifle marksmanship and 2A protection as many others.

Welcome to the forum Ahab. We are all in this together. And Ahab, we have taken such a beating on some of the blogs, I am sure you won't get too upset about a few "pasty whites in underware" comments ;) :D ;D

The people here are no different than most of the other shooting organizations. Intelligent, committed and hard working to further the cause of shoting skills and rights, and we welcome your voice among us.  ;) ;D ;D
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Offline Ahab

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2008, 02:25:38 PM »
Don't worry, if I got all butthurt every time someone on the 'net called me a name, I never would have lasted through the AOL era.

But zercool has a point - I'm an action pistol guy, and imagine if I had decided to learn a bit about rifle, and stumbled across this thread, where action pistol is being derided and action pistol guys are called "trigger-slappers" and such.  It would pretty much ensure that my reaction to Appleseed would be "these guys don't want me, I'm out" - and instead of bringing a shooter to the line, you've pushed me away.

Like I said, I don't really care what you say about me - I'll just crawl a little further into my bottle of bourbon.  ;-)  What I care about is making sure that shooters don't get alienated from our sports.
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Offline Scout

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2008, 02:58:22 PM »
... where action pistol is being derided and action pistol guys are called "trigger-slappers" and such.  It would pretty much ensure that my reaction to Appleseed would be "these guys don't want me, I'm out" - and instead of bringing a shooter to the line, you've pushed me away.

Like I said, I don't really care what you say about me - I'll just crawl a little further into my bottle of bourbon.  ;-)  What I care about is making sure that shooters don't get alienated from our sports.

The chance of you stumbling on a post disparaging any kind of shooting techniques on this forum is very small. This thread is an exception. And it was not about methods, just people. This was just a chance to thump our chests and have some fun, at your expense, ;) but even here, as you see, there is nothing malicious, just poking fun. ;)

We don't waste time talking about other methods of instruction. We find we have precious little time as it is to even get our techniques across and further the program, let alone diss anyone else, so this is a rare exception.

I am not sure which post you are talking about on the "pistol trigger slappers", I must not have read it yet, but I can tell you from instructing quite a few folks who went to some of the tactical courses, that they all had one thing in common, trigger jerk. They had been trained to shoot reaction style first, and it hurts when they are shooting for accuracy.

Nothing really wrong with this if you are standing toe to toe or across the room from your target, but it hurts you if you are 1,500 feet way. Where we tell people to begin engaging their targets if at all possible. We don't want to gunfight fairly, or give the target a chance to get toe to toe.

We don't teach tactics either, just common sense. If you have the chance to hit your target at 500 yards, while the target has no idea you even exust. That is the best option. ;)

We leave the rest (0-25 yards, and tactical) to to people better suited to teach it. Gunsite, Frontsite, all the academies etc. We have enough on our plate as it is.

Glad you are here Ahab ;)

If we did have an ideology, it would probably go something like this;



USMC Rules For Gunfighting [with a few additions by Fred]

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. [Rule 1.5: Try to make them a TEAM. And make the 'guns' rifles - see Rules 5 & 6]

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive. [Rule 2.5: When targets get plentiful, have a rifle which requires only one shot to take out a target, and fire only one shot per target. Running out of ammo in a target-rich environment can ruin your life.]

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss. [Rule 3.5: A fast hit is better than a slow hit. Rule 3.6: A fast miss is trumped by a slower hit. Rule 3.7: Firing too fast can turn a sure hit into a fast miss.]

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.) [5.5 Engage beyond 300 yards.]

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a rifle and a friend with a rifle.

7. In ten years, nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived. [Rule 7.5: But caliber, stance, skill and tactics may determine who lives - and who dies - today.]

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, or running. [Rule 8.5: As long as you have targets, and rounds in your mag, you should be shooting.]

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. [Rule 9.2: Shoot to Rifleman standard. Rule 9.3: A 'kill' hit is better than a 'wound' hit, but a 'wound' hit beats a miss - every time.]

9.5. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. [Rule 9.9 Bring a rifle you can easily clear when it malfunctions.]

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. [Rule 11.5. You have to win every time. They only have to win once.]

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work. [Rule 13.5 Plan B - accurate rifle fire will save your ass!]

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. [Rule 14.5 Camo clothing, skin, rifle.]

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours. [Rule 15.5 Be part of a team!]

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. [Rule 17.5 Target Detection is #1!]

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them) [Rule 18.5 Simplify! Keep them them 300+ yards away and once ID'd as enemy, shoot them - fast and well!]

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. [Rule 21.5 Plan consists of SOP and immediate action drills.]

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. [Rule 23.5 Win the soft war now, and you avoid the hard war, later. Rule 23.7 Learn to shoot like a Rifleman now; it's your number one Option for Personal Security when avoidance, deterrence, or de-escalation is not an option.]

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4." [Rule 24.5 Do not get close enough to use a pistol -or even a carbine. Distance is your friend. See Rule 5.]

25. It is not a movie. If you catch a round, save the dramatics, ignore the hit, and keep shooting. You have nothing to lose, and you might even survive.


BattleRoadUSA.com

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Sixty seconds is way too long for a minute, I am cutting it down to thirty seven seconds- SoM

"You can shout it, you can preach it, but no matter how many times you repeat it, NEVER believe your own bullSh*t." (as told to me by Grin Reaper)

Offline Bravo

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2008, 03:08:53 PM »
Interesting!

Now I didn't listen to any show, so I'm not making any comment on such. What I am making a comment on is what is included IN THIS THREAD.

So let me get this straight.....

It was wrong of the people on the show to mischaractarize Appleseed by equating it with camo laden overweight conspiracy theorists. Appleseed folks are better than to mischaracterize people who go to Blackwater as ramboesque overweight pasty trigger jerkers.

Appleseed is good, because it's all about shooting accurately - at 25 meters. Run and gun is bad, because it's about hit-or-miss on human sized siloughettes, out to 800 yards (and no, that's no exageration - even the night shoots have targets at over 200, just to make sure you're scanning appropriately!).

Appleseed is good, because it is based in the history of these united States, teaching that we do what we do, from lessons learned from the past. Run and gun is bad, because it's based in the history of these united States, teaching that we do what we do, from lessons learned from the past.

I've often said that Appleseed is the best FIRST PLACE to start. It's a FIRST STEP - not a last step.

What gets me really riled is any joker that wants to turn a good idea into an opportunity to 'game it'. Yeah, run-and-gunners game things to death, but don't tell me that everone that earns their Riflemans badge with a 10/22 then puts that 22 away until the next Appleseed, only to use their M14 and FAL on siloughettes at full distance between those times. And yes, I see that as 'gaming it'.

If the goal of Appleseed is to turn out Riflemen, then wouldn't it make sense that a Rifleman wants to master his weapon and the use of it? Gee, laying in a comfy prone where you're only going to need 10 rounds (with a 2-round reload no less!) ain't always the way it's gonna be - unless it's JUST A SPORT, in which case the PURPOSE for Appleseed is moot.

My second favorite philosopher said this, and I think it applies:
"He who fights monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche from Beyond Good and Evil

I think it's time I go and visit M1A4ME.

Offline Scout

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2008, 03:34:50 PM »
Interesting!

Now I didn't listen to any show.....

Where have you seen anyone here say anything like that other than as a response to someone else Bravo? We make one thread of comments after over a year of bad blood from bloggers and this is what we get.... 

See Ahab, I was wrong, and I am man enough to admit it, we do have people who will get things mixed up ;) ;D ;D

Now, before we get any further into any tactical versus any other method of shooting or raging about unimportant things. Let's just return to where we were.

Thanks for coming Ahab and having an open mind. As I said just mere moments ago, we are not the only game in town and we welcome all the rest of the shooting disciplines and want to join with them so that each Rifleman is a well rounded shooter. Is there any other way to be prepared?

So speak freely on aything shooting related here in the forum, if you encounter any problems here, be sure and let funfaler, The Guy or myself know about them and we will take care of them. And again, thanks and welcome aboard. 
BattleRoadUSA.com

"Who wants Ice Cream?" Fred

Sixty seconds is way too long for a minute, I am cutting it down to thirty seven seconds- SoM

"You can shout it, you can preach it, but no matter how many times you repeat it, NEVER believe your own bullSh*t." (as told to me by Grin Reaper)

Offline PHenry

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2008, 03:42:37 PM »
I respect any program that brings people into shooting, as it might tend to cause them to be more active in their support of the 2A.

The primary difference between Appleseeds and virtually every other marksmanship program is simple - Project Appleseeds seeks to save our country by maintaining the traditions of the Founding Generation.

It is not a "hobby", or a means to self-defense. It is a worthy endeavor that honors the sacrifices of the men and women that purchased the Freedoms Americans enjoy today, at the cost of blood and sacrifice beyond imagination.

For me - that makes Appleseeds more than just a marksmanship program and I am honored to be a part of it.

PHenry
Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Offline Guy

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2008, 03:51:31 PM »
BTW, any of the students I have had in the past 2 years or so would all agree that I told them this is only the beginning.

There is so much more out there.

We do a great job of basics.  Crawl.  Walk.  Then Run.

With the skills I have learned here I have full confidence in first round hits to 700 yards with surplus ammo.  Heck, I bet if I ever would stop being so cheap, and bought some good stuff, I could add 100-200 yards to that.

Just my rifle, a sling, and a nice prone position.

It will take us all with all types of skill whenever the "zombies" or "aliens" come.  Who am I to dis any training?

Dis folks talking without experiencing?  Sure.  But actual training?  Nope.

Even High Power.  LOL  JK.

The good that is coming out of all of this bad feelings is this;

We have some doubters that will be showing up in the future.  Folks we may have not had the oppritunity to met except for all of this crap.  So I will put this one down in the book as a draw until I look over my line and see someone saying, "F-U Guy, I'm here like I said I would be.  No undies (gogocomando!) and a tan!"  Of course, I will take it with a smile, because I find that kind of humor funny, and will carry on, knowing that win or lose, they were there.

See ya soon.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 03:56:54 PM by The Guy »

Offline techres

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2008, 03:53:00 PM »
Don't worry, if I got all butthurt every time someone on the 'net called me a name, I never would have lasted through the AOL era.

But zercool has a point - I'm an action pistol guy, and imagine if I had decided to learn a bit about rifle, and stumbled across this thread, where action pistol is being derided and action pistol guys are called "trigger-slappers" and such.  It would pretty much ensure that my reaction to Appleseed would be "these guys don't want me, I'm out" - and instead of bringing a shooter to the line, you've pushed me away.

Like I said, I don't really care what you say about me - I'll just crawl a little further into my bottle of bourbon.  ;-)  What I care about is making sure that shooters don't get alienated from our sports.

Welcome Ahab!  And thanks for coming on the board with us, it is greatly appreciated.

As for any comment about overweight shooters, I gotta laugh.  Seriously, laugh.  Not because of my own weight problems (read - Fat), but because there is not a single shooting event I go to that is not full of guys in serious need of a treadmill. 

And for the other comments, each discipline has their own place in the whole of the community.  Our niche as it were is traditional marksmanship using sling and mixed with history lessons.  And every week we have a mix of shooters who come to learn.  Sadly, not all are ready to learn the easy way and have to unlearn a thing or two - just like any school gets to deal with.  This weekend I had a student who was VERY decisive about when he was ready to shoot (read - trigger pull of death).  I actually asked him, "Are you a competition shooter?"  and he replied, "No, why?"  I explained that he was a man who knew when to pull the trigger and did so with gusto which is a trait sometimes associated with move-and-shoot competitors.  Frankly, he took it as a compliment and we worked on slowing him down a touch.

But to be clear, it was not an insult even though it was an assumption on my part.  I was just about to do the "well, for today let's try this a bit different" speech, but instead moved on with teaching and got a reminder about "assuming".  In fact all sorts of shooters come with all sorts of learning needs.  In the end there is only one kind of problem shooter - one that already knows it all and does not want to learn anything.  Every school of training gets them and we all have difficulty with them.

Oh, and as far as this comment goes:

Quote
I'm the one who invited Breda to come to a steel challenge match in Indianapolis.

The invite is open to anyone else of course, although I won't be able to provide firearms and ammo for them.

I am sending you a P.M. to take you up on your offer!  Would be good to meet you in person.
Appleseed: Bringing the Past into the Present to save our Future.

Offline Guy

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2008, 03:55:43 PM »
Just to avoid any further flame, I am locking this one.

Nice reply Tech.

Hmmm....

Wonder if I can make that Indy shoot....

Offline Fred

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Re: Appleseed discussion on GunNuts:TNG tonight @ 11 EST
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2008, 12:54:41 AM »

     This is a great place for a little "lessons learned" recap.

     One lesson is we have to learn to be careful, and not sloppy, with our words and thinking. It's easy to be sloppy - just look at about anything I post here - even if I try to be precise and keep the message simple rather than complicate it up.

     On this thread we were concerned about what we perceived was an unfair bashing of Appleseed. I don't know an instructor - not one - who's a "black helicopter" guy. In fact, AS is, to the contrary, not concerned about "black helicopters" - or green ones, or gray ones - but on bailing out the ship to keep it from sinking. It was and is a body-blow to the program to let those "black helicopter" charges float out there in cyberspace without objection.

     But we don't help ourselves when we defend ourselves, and somehow stray over into dissing some other shooting sport.

     That's not Appleseed, and that's not our message.

     Our message is hope. For the future.

    It's good to stay on that message. We work better when we do.

    So let's emphasize and reiterate that we have to be careful to practice what we preach, and one thing we preach is that AS is positive. We promote AS, and we do it with the notion that we all win by it. There's no component of AS that involves contempt for any other shooting program. Of any kind.

     Comments in this thread relating to run'n'gun are not necessary to any of the points we wanted to make.

     Now, understand, I am NOT criticizing any of the posts, or any of the posters. Simply, in the Appleseed spirit, which is rapidly becoming the Appleseed tradition, we look to see what we do good, and what we do bad. We keep the good, and improve it, and we jettison the bad, and are rid of it.

     We don't point fingers, and we don't assign blame (otherwise I could never function, having to suffer the burdens of so much finger-pointing, myself... >:( ;D) - we simply fix the problem, and move on.

     If you are reading this, resolve to be more precise in the future. Identify the problem, and fix it. That's about as simple and precise as you can get. And as effective...

     Being effective is another Appleseed tradition.

     Life is a learning process. We learn, and we move on, grateful for the opportunity of having learnt.

     Would that life give us many more such opportunities (and don't worry - it will ;D).
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