Aacck ... ammo and zeroing help needed

[MGF]

Got a limited amount of good ammo for this weekend's shoot in Sparta.
Zeroed from the bench to check the federal white box I've heard called "auto match." My rifle did not care for them. Even from the bags, I could little consistency.
The CCI Minimags zeroed in quickly and held.
My questions:
1. After you zero for ammo ... where do you all zero for the standing (100 yard simulated) target. Do you make any clicks. I threw some good groups today, but not where I wanted 'em.
2. Do you adjust with any elevation clicks when it's time to sit or kneel or go prone for 200m, 300m and 400m?

[Maximum Ordinate]

> 1. After you zero for ammo ... where do you all zero for the standing
> (100 yard simulated) target. Do you make any clicks. I threw some
> good groups today, but not where I wanted 'em.

You didn't mention what rifle you're shooting or what range, so I'm going to assume you mean a 22LR (probably a Ruger 10/22 or similar) at scaled targets to 25 meters.

A1.  Your zero doesn't change for the standing position.  Once you zero at 25m and are shooting scaled targets at that range, there is no reason to adjust your sights for smaller targets.  The trajectory of your bullet is not changing because the distance to your target isn't changing.

2. Do you adjust with any elevation clicks when it's time to sit or kneel or go prone for 200m, 300m and 400m?

A2.  No, because the distance to the target hasn't changed.  Adjusting your sights will only change your point of impact.

Remember, you should be focusing on the basics (steady hold factors and Six Steps to firing a shot) to get small groups - 4MOA or smaller.  Don't chase your shots, just get your groups small.  At 25m, 4MOA is one inch.  Once you have a small group, then adjust your sights to move the group where you want it to go.  Once you do this in the prone position, there is no need to change the sights on your rifle if you continue to shoot the same distance, regardless of how large or small the target is on paper.

Hope this helps,
Rusty

[RiflesnReins]

Man Rusty you sure replied quick. I was going to say something similar.  Looking forward to seeing you at Sparta next weekend MGF!

RnR

[Maximum Ordinate]

MGF,

It just occurred to me that you might not have attended an Appleseed clinic yet.   

If you get on a piece of 8.5x11" paper at 25m, your instructors will get you the rest of the way there.  Bring a teachable attitude and no worries!   

Good luck at Sparta this coming weekend!  I'll be in Manchester, TN.

-Rusty

[MGF]

Thanks. Actually was shooting a Smith & Wesson MP15-22 with a Nikon scope. Twenty-five meters. Appleseed sling; Appleseed targets.
There's some hitch in my giddyup, I fear. Maybe the instructors can get me straightened out.
Will also prep a 10-22 as a backup.
Am also going run out my AR15 out tomorrow and see if I'm shooting it better; I punched the the center out of of some 25m targets very nicely with some 62 grain bullets with that gun at a class last week. It's a Colt with a 1:7 twist and seems to like the 62s better than the 55s.
Will play with what time I can round up this week before the shoot this weekend and see what I can figure out.

[MGF]

Rusty,
I've been to one. My problem is consistency. I can occasionally put three in the black 1" square from 25m. Heck, mutti and DonD saw me do it!
Right now, I don't what I'm doing and am starting to talk to myself.
I have figured out my rifle HATES the Federal so called "target" round in the white box and doesn't think one heck of a lot of the Rem Golden Bullets, either. It does like the CCI Minimags. I've got a a couple hundred left, but need to round up so more of those if possible this week.
I have tomorrow off (I've got a weird schedule) and am going to the again range tomorrow.
Will see y'all next weekend if I don't go off my coconut before then.
I am frustrated. My pistol work (.22 and centerfire) is going smooth like butter. I can stumble out of bed and shoot 90/100 at trap or skeet. I can post a respectable clays score.
But my rifle consistency is making mumble.
That said, I'm dang good at perseverance.
Mark

[Maximum Ordinate]

Dryfire, dryfire, dryfire, my friend.  It's cheap and effective.  Go through the six steps every time.  You know if you flinched or fussed the shot.

Practice does not make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect.

Rusty,
I've been to one. My problem is consistency. I can occasionally put three in the black 1" square from 25m. Heck, mutti and DonD saw me do it!
Right now, I don't what I'm doing and am starting to talk to myself.
I have figured out my rifle HATES the Federal so called "target" round in the white box and doesn't think one heck of a lot of the Rem Golden Bullets, either. It does like the CCI Minimags. I've got a a couple hundred left, but need to round up so more of those if possible this week.
I have tomorrow off (I've got a weird schedule) and am going to the again range tomorrow.
Will see y'all next weekend if I don't go off my coconut before then.
I am frustrated. My pistol work (.22 and centerfire) is going smooth like butter. I can stumble out of bed and shoot 90/100 at trap or skeet. I can post a respectable clays score.
But my rifle consistency is making mumble.
That said, I'm dang good at perseverance.
Mark

[MGF]

Thank you, sir. Will get some dry fire in every night until Saturday. See ya then!
Whoops, see you're in Alabama. If I don't see you this weekend, know I'll see plenty knowledgeable and good folks. Thanks for the help!

[malabar]

MGF,

I instruct a lot of different kinds of classes. One thing I noticed real quick was that guys who are very competent at wing shooting have a hard time learning the rifle, and guys who are competent rifle competitors have a hard time learning wing shooting. They are completely different skill sets.  So you're in good company.  Keep following the POI and you'll get it in no time.

IMO,  you shouldn't worry too much about the kind of ammo your gun prefers until you're at the point where you can consistently put nice little groups right where you want them.

Accuracy is all about consistency. It's hard to gauge the consistency of ammo until you know you have your own consistency worked out. It's far too easy to chalk up inconsistencies in your own technique to inconsistency in the ammo.

tk

Rusty,
I've been to one. My problem is consistency. I can occasionally put three in the black 1" square from 25m. Heck, mutti and DonD saw me do it!
Right now, I don't what I'm doing and am starting to talk to myself.
I have figured out my rifle HATES the Federal so called "target" round in the white box and doesn't think one heck of a lot of the Rem Golden Bullets, either. It does like the CCI Minimags. I've got a a couple hundred left, but need to round up so more of those if possible this week.
I have tomorrow off (I've got a weird schedule) and am going to the again range tomorrow.
Will see y'all next weekend if I don't go off my coconut before then.
I am frustrated. My pistol work (.22 and centerfire) is going smooth like butter. I can stumble out of bed and shoot 90/100 at trap or skeet. I can post a respectable clays score.
But my rifle consistency is making mumble.
That said, I'm dang good at perseverance.
Mark

[FiremanBob]

MGF, what Malabar said is probably your first key: consistent technique is required before assessing the consistency of the ammo. Getting your foundation right: position with the correct steady hold factors, your NPOA, and applying every one of the Six Steps are the three keys to accurate shooting. Once you have tiny groups, you adjust the sights to put those groups into the V-ring.

If you are only testing ammo, that is done most easily with a bench rest to obviate some of the three keys listed above. The Six Steps still apply to bench-rest shooting, though.

I heard your original question a little differently; it seemed to me that you were asking about sight adjustments for the standing target relative to the smaller targets on the 25m AQT. The answer to this depends on whether you are using a dead-on (or center, AKA POA=POI) hold or a 6-o'clock hold (aka "pumpkin on a post") as your sight picture. If the latter, we teach that a 6-o'clock hold on the lower rows, where the entire green or red silhouette sits on top of your front sight post, is too low for the larger standing target - using it will put your shots in the 4-ring at the bottom of the silhouette. For the standing target, the equivalent hold point is the white line at the bottom of the 5-ring. This will put your POI in the V-ring. Once zeroed at a distance, I don't adjust my sights unless I switch to a different distance.

If you are using the dead-on hold, in every case you are putting the center of the V-ring on top of your sight, so the adjustment wouldn't be needed at all. Many people, and all of the open-sight rifle and pistol champions I've heard of, use the 6-o'clock hold for the simple reason that it is most consistent and offers the sharpest contrast between the white paper, the black sight post, and the bullseye. Using a center hold on a black bullseye, or into the silhouette on an AQT, is a less sharp sight picture, and it's hard to tell exactly which point inside the silhouette you have on sight.

I also do a lot of skeet shooting. It is a challenge to switch between sports. In one you focus on the target, and in the other you focus on the front sight. If you focus your eye on the target in rifle shooting, the front sight will move as you wobble, but you won't know it because you aren't focusing on it.

[MGF]

Ready for some strangeness?
Took the AR out today. It's a Colt with Magpul furniture, including a vertical foregrip.  Since its barrel has a 1:7 twist rate, I dialed it in using Federal's 62 grain green tip. I have a Millet scope on it that I had set at 4X. No sling, as it has a one point attachment and no way I can see to put on a traditional Appleseed sling, although I have an extra one. It zeroed from the sandbags to the 1" squares quite easily.
Then I shot three Appleseed AQT targets using the Appleseed timer app on my Razr. Ran the following scores, in this order: 217, 188, 168. Don't know if the heat beat me down or what.
I'm just going to clean the gear, organize it and show up this weekend. Worst thing that can happen is I learn something.

[Charles McKinley]

Check and make sure that everything is TIGHT on the 15-22.  A loose mount will throw you.  If you are banging with the AR the 15-22 should be good to go too.  Using a scope no adjustment is needed just put the cross hairs where you want the impact.

You are remembering to focus on the crosshair, not the target? Right.  Step 4a.

Enjoy your second seed of hopefully many to come, and bring a friend! 

[MGF]

Thanks, stand. Everything's tightened down, and gear is ready for the weekend. Woot!
Hope someone knows how to put up an Ez-up. Mine, located on sale at the Rural King, is still in the box.

[FiremanBob]

MGF, you probably already know this, but when tightening down things that are not supposed to move until you put a driver or wrench on them again, a dab of blue Loctite is your best friend. DAMHIKT

[MGF]

I love blue loctite. I've  even used it on eyeglass screws.