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Camp Atterbury JMTC 15-16 June, 2013 Wolf Performance Ammostyle

Started by SPQR, June 17, 2013, 03:46:44 PM

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Rayne

QuoteDo not forget those who fought for your Liberties and Freedoms and take care to guard them against all tyranny.

Nero

Justin Bieber!!? ???   :P

Just what sad and sorry specimen of firearm would you inflict that on?   :'(  :slap:
"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters." —Frederick Douglass

Rayne

QuoteDo not forget those who fought for your Liberties and Freedoms and take care to guard them against all tyranny.

TBE

Let us therefore animate and encourage each other, and shew the whole world, that a Freeman contending for Liberty on his own ground is superior to any slavish mercenary on earth.  General Washington, July 2, 1776

Pale Rider

Introduction

My name is Kyle, I hail for the NE side of Indianapolis and recently attended my first Appleseed event and there are really three reasons I decided to jot all this down... The first and foremost is to share my experiences for the sake of institutional knowledge. It's been said, "It's not reality unless it's shared" well, I hope I can make my reality yours as well. The second reason is to pay a debt. I made a promise to Ol' Huff that I'd weigh my Appleseed weekend against my military training and give my honest opinion on both. In exchange he provided me a rifle, and an opportunity... but more on both of those later. Third, I have a habit of conducting AARs (after action reviews.) It started in Scouting, and was drilled home in the Army. By writing this I'm taking one more opportunity to mentally relive each experience and drive home the learning experiences one more time. If you're not a journal type of guy or gal, give it a go after a single event, and you'll soon realize the benefit of reprocessing life's lessons on a daily basis.

What you'll encounter below is a rough compilation of opinion, fact and experience. I hope you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed writing it. It took entirely too long to put together and for that I apologize. The opinions expressed below are mine and mine alone; they do not represent Appleseed, The US Military or my currently civilian employer. If you have an issue with something here take it up with me and me alone.

Setting the Stage

"I am an American soldier, a warrior and a member of a...." (If you want the rest look up 'Soldier's Creed') The reality is, I can only say those words for another twelve months. My brief stint in the Indiana National Guard is coming to a close. In the time I've been a citizen soldier I've had some amazing opportunities. For the last 5 years I've taken your tax dollars and spent them like an x-games adrenaline junkie attending training like Commo School, Infantry School, Airborne, Air Assault, Sniper and SDM to name a few. These, combined with the knowledge and training gained from some real warriors have shaped my view of marksmanship and shooting.

Every soldier in the U.S. Army attends basic training and spends no less than two weeks on the rifle range learning the basics of marksmanship and the M16 family of rifles. They carry their rifles everywhere, and they sleep with their rifles while in the field. This creates a very comfortable familiarity with the rifle in a very short period of time. After basic training however, the soldier's shooting development relies heavily on their unit at both the Battalion and Company level... in the guard this often means zeroing at 25 yards, shooting the qualification course and calling it a day... once a year.

I've been fortunate to have some opportunities that most soldiers don't, I'm in a small section (10) and we have the flexibility to train how we see fit for the most part. It also just so happens that our section, on the battalion roster reads: "Snipers." Because of this we not only get some autonomy, but we get some great rifles and plenty of ammo.

The Army Sniper School teaches both marksmanship and field craft in either a 5-week (weekends off) or a 4-week course. (This is changing in October and the school will add 2 and 3 weeks respectively to accommodate curriculum changes and more night qualifications.) The marksmanship portion is focused around scoped rifles chambered in 7.62x51 Nato, .300 Winchester Magnum and .50 BMG. Shooters will engage targets from 100 to 1600 meters in various shooting positions. They shoot qualifications for time, and often shoot at moving targets under 'stressful' conditions. I graduated this course in June of 2010 and have been striving to increase my effectiveness as a Sniper since the day I got home.

The Army has another shooting school it runs that mirrors the marksmanship curriculum of the Sniper course; SDM. The Squad Designated Marksman course was created when the Army realized that many current battlefield engagements were extending beyond the 300 yards that normal soldiers are trained to shoot at. The solution has been to train a "Designated Marksman" that carries either an M16A4 or M14 with an ACOG (fixed four power scope) while his normal squadmates carry M4s with CCOs (red dot sight.) The SDM course is two weeks long and is currently being taught using M16A4 rifles. The instructors have lobbied to get M4s because most units don't have M16 or M14 rifles readily available to issue to their SDM trained soldiers.  The standard to graduate SDM is 70% on all events. Shooters spend week one engaging E-Type (40in x 20in silhouette) targets with iron sights from 100 - 600 yards on both known and unknown distance ranges. Week two is similar to week one except that the soldiers mount ACOGs to their rifles until the completion of the course and moving targets are added to mix. I had the honor of graduating from SDM this past February and it will serve as the baseline for my comparison and evaluation of the Appleseed course.

Finding the Apple

As my time in the military gets shorter so does my access to free guns, ammo and range time (I actually make money when I shoot!) I've been looking for some training opportunities on the civilian side of things. I'm a member of INGO and have been for a long while, I hang out in the knife and training areas. (My blood pressure and patience aren't cut out for the politics or other areas of the forum) I didn't know much about Appleseed a month ago. I had heard of the organization, I knew they did 25-yard rim fire shoots and taught basic marksmanship and that was about it. I stumbled on a thread about a shoot that was to be held the weekend of my birthday and started to explore with a hope I might attend. (I knew if I got the chance my wife couldn't protest because it was after all MY birthday... I'm a selfish SOB at times) As I read through the thread I started learning more about Appleseed and how they teach folks to shoot. To be honest my first reaction was "They're wrong, this goes against everything I've been taught and how I teach my guys." So I posed a few questions to dig a little deeper in to why the Appleseed instructors teach what they do.

Those questions led to a PM conversation with Ol 'Huff, which led to a challenge/invitation. I expressed my concerns with his methods and what Appleseed was teaching and he calmly and politely answered my questions. He also invited me to attend the shoot, and he offered to loan me a rifle for the event under one condition; I write this AAR with as much honesty and back bone as I could muster. I readily agreed. Now in the coming weeks I tried to convince my command to let me bring a couple of my issued rifles to use and to share with others, due to liability issues though, that idea was finally laid to rest only 3 days before the shoot. I would borrow Huff's version of an M4.

Preparing For the Range

I've spent countless days and nights on the ranges of Camp Atterbury over the last 5 years and have a pretty good handle on what I would need for a two-day range trip. I'm also in decent shape so the physical part of the weekend wasn't really a concern. What did kind of concern me was what I was reading on INGO. I actually started having second thoughts about attending, I was reading posts advising shooters to start hydrating a week ahead and to walk a couple miles a day with all your range gear etc. Instructors also relayed things like "Atterbury is the real deal!" "It's intense!" "Come with your rifle worked out, this isn't a beginners course!" "This is physical, you'll carry everything, start getting in shape!"

These very serious, somewhat condescending posts didn't intimidate me, I was puzzled. As best I can remember my train of thought was something like...

"Are these guys serious? It's two days at the range walking between berms with no kit on, big freaking deal! They're making it sound like a 48-hour op with full ruck and a walk-in insertion. Do they really take themselves this seriously? Are they so off base that they think a day at a KD range is 'hard core?' I'm not sure I want to spend a weekend listening to these arrogant wannabes."

I'm not proud of those thoughts, humility comes hard for me at times and in the spirit of honesty I was pretty put off. I was put off because I was approaching this event from the wrong perspective. I was reading their advice as Kyle the soldier, not Kyle the civilian. I'll explain...

It's a given that my teammates and I are in good shape. It's a given that my teammates and I can pack for two days at the range. It's a given that my teammates and I can zero a rifle with only a couple shots. It's a given that my teammates and I will hydrate before any training event... The problem was none of those messages were directed at my teammates and I. They were directed and Kyle the civilian and every other student in the course; folks who varied in age, gender, physical stature, mental fortitude and experience. Did the messages come across kind of condescending? Yup! Was part of that because I was reading them through the wrong lens? Yup!

Folks I'll get down and dirty for you here. If you are attending a future Appleseed full distance KD event here is what should be in your pack... (Remember I'm not an instructor, just a guy with a few days range experience)

- Water      - Data Book      - Three mags
- Ammo       - Rain gear      - Rifle lube
- Lunch and snacks (keep this small, if you find yourself packing in a cooler you've done something very wrong)
- Pencil, Pen, Marker            - eye and ear protection
- Binos (skip the spotting scope, you aren't watching trace or shooting at extreme distance, you'll only need binos to see spotters on the targets 10x should be plenty. If you have a scoped rifle; bring binos anyway. You won't be allowed to touch your rifle at the same time hits are being spotted for you.)

I probably left off a thing or two, but the reality of it is you don't need much other than what's above. Skip the shooting matt and fancy jacket, are you training to be a rifleman or a competition shooter? What will you have on when the bell rings at 4a.m.? The more crap you bring, the more crap you have to pack up and be accountable for which slows the rest of the group down.

Also, this is important for range time, on a mission, or just hiking with the family, pack smart! Make the things your most likely to use, or that you'll use repeatedly easily accessible and bury your lunch. You'll have plenty of time to dig your lunch out when you need it so be efficient... more on "shooting line efficiency and etiquette" later.

First Impressions Aren't Always Accurate Impressions

In the civilian world I'm a staffing manager at a small firm and I interview upwards of 20 people a week. (On a side note if you want some tips on getting hired and polishing up your resume feel free to reach out via pm.) I get the chance to make a lot of first impressions and I get to evaluate other people based on my first impression of them. What I've learned is that first impressions are rarely even 70% accurate.

Day 1 of Appleseed we gathered in the parking lot and I got my first experience with Ol' Huff our "Shoot Boss" (basically the head instructor for the weekend.) He was not at all what I expected. Based on our Pm conversation I expected someone older, with beard and a lot less bravado. What I saw was Dale Gribble (from the adult cartoon King of The Hill) with an extra 60 lbs. With jet-black hair, fully mirrored aviators and a green hat that read "Shoot Boss" the averagely built 30 something Ol' Huff addressed our contingent of shooters like a drill sergeant who had his cheerios pissed in. He was dramatic, condescending and talked with a tone of self-importance that rang out like nails on a chalkboard. I was pissed. I quickly forgot that 5 minutes prior the same man had handed me his rifle to use and abuse with a smile on his face and I started remembering all those INGO posts and I was worried my fears about the weekend were being realized.

(AJ for future events I would tone it down a little from the jump, and build to that persona slowly, I firmly believe you lost some credibility with a few shooters in those early moments, especially in the demographic you told me was typically the least open to coaching.)
As we drew our ammo from the employees of Wolf Ammo my blood pressure was up. I had promised Ol' Huff I'd check my experience and ego at the door for this event and do my best to be a model student, but if things continued like this I wasn't going to hold my tongue long. Fortunately our instructor on the line was Dave. (yellowhousejake) On the forum Dave came across curt and haughty (lenses again...) but in person he instructed like a seasoned professor. He delivered his classes with ease and the "ums" and "errs" common to most folks confronted with teaching other adults were nowhere to be found in his vocabulary. In-between marksmanship and history lessons we began to confirm our zeros.

It was then, when AJ (Ol' Huff) came to check on how his rifle was doing, that's when my perception of him changed and I realized his 'Shoot Boss' persona was a tool of his trade. After getting a good 25-yard zero we ran a box drill to confirm that our sights were adjusting consistently. If you're curious about box drills click HERE. After that we moved to the 300-yard berm to confirm our zero there. It's here where I'll stop and address a few range logistical issues.

Shooting Line Efficiency and Etiquette

Time for a quick reality check. The shooting line is rather wide... hundreds of yards wide so communication has to be yelled and relayed to ensure proper dissemination of commands. We, and I say we because it included instructors and students alike, did not acknowledge the width of the line on day one until it was too late. As shooters we collectively moved slowly, there was no sense of urgency to gather when we were called in for a block of instruction. Could we have combined a few lessons and spent less time commuting to the center of the line? Probably, but I'm not familiar with how strict the Appleseed curriculum is so while I'll suggest that for future KD shoots I'm not sure how doable it is. The ultimate solution (in my opinion) is half a day of classroom instruction. This doesn't sound sexy or fun, but the reality of it is we averaged 20 + minutes per block and a loooong lunch (well over an hour.) If you put all those in to one block with some position practice and coaching before hitting the range you could probably be pulling triggers before 1 pm and still fire the same number of rounds and AQTs we did on day one if not more. This would also keep the shooters in a rhythm, but I'll address that later.

To all you would be shooters out there, here is the rub... move with a purpose. If you have the opportunity to shoot at a nice KD range, don't waste half your day walking up and down the line like grandma going down the grocery isle. The faster you get where you're going the more time you'll have to prep and focus. Also, load your mags every chance you get. If you finish a course of fire early, load for the next one. Keep you mags in your pockets and some loose rounds too so you can always load on a moments notice. Think ahead and stage your gear. I covered packing your gear smart, but stage it smart as well. If you don't have to dig every time you need a mag or ammo or your pen and notebook you'll have less strewn about. Cargo pants to carry your writing and data stuff and a mag pouch or two on your belt might come in handy. As far as your pack goes, use something with multiple smaller outside pockets. Or you can grab something with molle loops and attach a few pouches. I ran a camelback linchpin and had more than enough room and pockets to keep everything handy without having to dig in to the main compartment. This should be your goal. The main compartment on your pack should be for rain gear, extra water and lunch. Everything else should be externally stored for easy and quick access. If you can get a pack with an internal bladder and hose, do it! It'll save you lugging a water bottle and it's one less thing to track. (The instructors might hassle you about not having water on you or drinking during instruction periods though, so if that will bother you keep a bottle to appease them) Don't have things scattered around or hanging off you bag like a gypsy cart either. Keep it tight and light and you'll go far.

Lunch

After spending some time at the 300 we broke for lunch. Now this was a "carry everything" event and that included lunch. We spent a few minutes eating and while we finished our instructors started telling stories about the beginning of the revolutionary war. Before the stories started I took a run to my vehicle. I had asked Ol' Huff if I could shoot in my plate carrier and helmet and he didn't have an issue so I retrieved the gear from my trunk in hopes of it providing some familiarity because to be frank I wasn't enjoying or succeeding with the whole loop sling idea. Not long after I returned the stories started. I really shouldn't say started, I should say continued, in our morning block of instruction there was some history mixed in. The stories were new to me, very entertaining, but sometimes hard to follow.

Appleseed and History

If you ask an Appleseed instructor, they'll tell you that the program isn't just about shooting it's about educating the general public on the history of the American rifleman. Our instructor's were a wealth of knowledge in this area. They rattled off names, dates, places, wives names, etc and told detailed stories about men who lived over two hundred years ago. I was impressed.

I mentioned that the stories were hard to follow. It was more the names and locations and timelines. As one instructor jumped in to take over the telling and add more details I often found myself mentally stumbling trying to keep up. I suggest taking as many if not more notes on the history as you do the shooting instruction. Part of Sniper school is studying history, but we usually only cover "Sniper" history which the curriculum covers back to the late 1800's or so. We also study international killers (I say killers to make a distinction, there are shooters and there are killers, I'll expand more on this when I address the Appleseed curriculum as a whole) men and women alike, who have employed rifles with great success throughout history.

We do not typically address the marksman of the early American years, so I was glad to learn some new things and left with a strong desire to learn more about our early settlers and founders. Come prepared for the history, if you think it's just range time and you come expecting to shoot constantly you'll be disappointed, understand that you're not just attending a shooting event, but a history event as well.

The AQT: Appleseed vs. SDM

After a late and very long lunch break we started our AQTs. I honestly don't know what AQT stands for officially in Appleseed speak, we just call them quals in the military. This was the part of the course I was most excited about. In the Army's SDM course we shot a total of 5 qualifications, one was an alternate version of the standard qual and the others were repeats; two quals each done twice, once with iron sights and once with an ACOG. For the sake of my failing memory and space I'll outline the 2 main quals that were repeated. My time frames may be off by a bit but I erred on the high side so as not to exaggerate my own abilities. We were not given slings for these events, something I'll go over in the curriculum section. We didn't run between berms, but moved at a light trot. The standard for both quals is 70%.

Known Distance Run-Down Qual: Best score 56/60 (93%)

600 yard berm full size E-type (20x40in silhouette)
   3 spotting rounds to evaluate wind
   3 spotting rounds to confirm wind adjustment
   10 rounds, standing to prone 60 seconds

500 yard berm full size E-type (20x40in silhouette)
   10 rounds, standing to prone 50 seconds

400 yard berm full size E-type (20x40in silhouette)
   10 rounds, standing to prone 40 seconds

300 yard berm full size E-type (20x40in silhouette)
   10 rounds, standing to prone 30 seconds

200 yard berm half width E-type (10x40in silhouette) movers
   10 rounds, prone
   The targets were on long 2x2s and were raised above the berm and then walked roughly 8-10 paces in one direction, pause, and they were walked back the same way. 5 passes in each direction, one shot per pass.

100 yard berm head target (10x10in face wearing a helmet)
   10 rounds, kneeling
   The targets were on 2x2s and were raised for 2 seconds at a time in one of three positions just above the berm; left edge of the target board, center of the target board and right edge of the target board. The pattern was random in every practice event and qual.


Unknown Distance Qual

This qual was done from a rise over a long rectangular field. Visibility was out past a mile, the field was full of ravines, high weeds, a few random pick up trucks and a few steel E-type targets on long posts 12 feet in the air. The day of the qual the instructors moved steel for us. We used E, F and half width E type steel targets hung by chains on steel tube frames. Everyday (sometimes multiple times a day) we'd move the targets and frames to random places throughout the field out to roughly 600 yards. The smaller targets were place closer, the F-types at around 100-150 to be engaged from the kneeling position. Each target was painted white with a spray painted letter or number for identification.

For the qual two shooters would lay prone with their rifles, ammo and spotting scopes (these scopes didn't have cross hairs, no cheating on range estimation!) next to each other with an instructor sitting between them on a stool. The instructor would call out twenty targets by number or letter while each shooter recorded the targets in order on a test sheet. The shooters were then given 10 minutes to range each target and record the ranges next to the target name on their sheet. Range estimation was graded as well as hits on target. A target had to be ranged within 15% of the actual range for a correct score. After ten minutes of ranging the instructor would call out a target in sequence and the first shooter would engage. If he missed he got one follow up shot. This is where proper wind calls and calling your shot are crucial. I don't recall exactly how the hits were scored in this event, that or it's classified and they made me forget it!

The Appleseed AQT 80% hits to earn Rifleman patch, my best score: 24/40 (60%)

100 yard berm D-type silhouette (26x19in) (not 100% on the dimensions but it's close to that)
   10 rounds standing, 120 seconds

200 yard berm, D-type silhouette
   10 rounds standing to seated, 55 seconds

300 yard berm, D-type silhouette
   10 rounds standing to prone, 120 seconds

400 yard berm, D-type silhouette
   10 rounds prone, 5 minutes

So the question is... which was tougher? Well what do you think? I honestly struggled with the AQTs. I think there are various factors that contributed to this. The first being the sling.

During the first classroom instruction we received at SDM many of the other students asked why our rifles had no slings. We had a few former Marines who were puzzled why a course that focused on stretching out the M16 A4 wouldn't issue them. The answer every instructor gave throughout the entire course was "Your rifle is not free floated, your sling torques your barrel and will throw your shot." They even went so far as to put an M16 in a vice, insert a bore laser and mount a laser to the ACOG (don't ask me how they did it or what laser is was, I was on the other side of the room.) Then they zeroed the lasers so there was one dot on the wall roughly 25 feet from the rifle. After the rifle was set up the lead instructor invited a student to come up and push on the barrel near the front sight and sling mount with his pinkie finger. The single laser dot on the wall instantly spilt in two and the separate dots settled about five inches apart. Five inches at 25 feet... magnify that at 600 yards... the message was received loud and clear. We would shoot with our magazines firmly planted in the dirt like a mono-pod. There was a little push back from the former Devil-Dogs (they are a stubborn bunch) and the instructors spent some time talking about their time working with Marine Corps instructors and how they Corps was slowly being swayed in the direction of mag-on-the-ground shooting (I'll refer to this as MOTG from here on.) They elaborated more on their experiences in competitions, on their home ranges and on their time at the Aberdeen Proving grounds doing research on rifles, sights and scopes. I was sold, but not at first.

From day one at the rifle range in basic training I'd been told to shoot my M16 MOTG. Until I attend SDM over four and a half years into my military career, two and half years after I'd become a trained sniper, I had never shot my rifle MOTG. I had convinced myself I couldn't get low enough to do it. (I'm smiling as I write this now because it sounds so asinine. I'm 5'8" 160lbs... and I'm by no means muscular in my upper body, laying flat and low, especially after stalking our sniper instructors in ghillie suits should have been too easy.) If you ask me now I'll tell you that I carry at least one short 20 round mag anytime we go in to a hide because the 30 is too tall.

While traveling to SDM I had made up my mind that I would attend the course as a blank slate, I'd check my ego and experience at the door and soak up everything I was taught. As mentioned previously, this isn't the easiest thing for me to do, but I succeed fairly well and on day one at the range my mag was firmly planted on the ground. There is a lesson here; an open mind leads to growth. Even when you're listening to a fool, you can learn something and grow from it. All you may learn is how another man views the world, but that is no small thing and can help you communicate and educate future fools. However, if you're listening to someone with a little experience and knowledge, well the possibilities are endless. I read a thread on INGO the other day where some folks thought they were "too good" for Appleseed.

I'll say this only once. With my rifle (my military issued m110) and 20 rounds I think I could hang with just about anybody I'd run into on a range around here out to about 1000 yards. I've got an ego large enough for two men twice my size and mouth to go with it, and I learned a few things at Appleseed. It may not be what you think and I'll expand more on that in a few paragraphs. There have been distinguished marksmen who have attend these shoots and acknowledge the value, so unless you've got a few cups in your trophy room... Get over yourself.

Moving on...

While exploring the Appleseed area on INGO I learned enough to know they taught shooting with a loop sling. Well, I'd just have to remedy that. I posted a few questions, doing my best to hide my sly grin and eye rolling, about why they taught that way, and didn't they know about non-free floated rifles? The response I got was simple; you aren't going to torque the barrel enough to make a difference for "field shooting." This term "field shooting" is one that you'll here often at an Appleseed event. What it means is, not on a bench or using sandbags, bipods or shooting sticks. The kind of shooting you'll do when a deer jumps up unexpectedly and you have to snap off a shot. The field shooting standard is 4 minutes of angle.

I'm going to attempt to explain minutes of angle as efficiently as possible so readers don't have to hit up Wikipedia.

A degree is a unit of measure. If you've ever done any woodworking, construction or land navigation with a compass you know a degree can be a very large unit of measure in certain situations. Well in shooting the goal is to be as precise as possible so a degree is too big to use as a unit of measure. You can break a degree down in to sixty minutes. If your rifle laying parallel to the ground is at 0 degrees and you shift your point of aim (where the barrel is pointing) by one degree you'll completely miss a man size (20x40in) target at 100 yards. A degree is just too large of an adjustment when you're shooting so we use minutes.

One minute is roughly equivalent to 1.047 inches at 100 yards, so shooters usually just say 1 inch at one hundred. At two hundred one minute equals roughly 2 inches, it's 3 inches at 300, four inches at 400 and continues on in sequence. I'm no math wiz but if you think about holding a yardstick with your arm extended at a 45 degree angle the rear tip of the stick is closer to the ground than the far tip. The stick is still at a 45 but the distance from the ground grows at each progressing mark on the stick. It's the same with your sights and your rifle barrel. As you adjust your sights or scope you aren't moving the barrel, but you're moving the sights in relation to the barrel witch will cause you to pitch the barrel up or down, or left or right as you align the sights on the target.

Tracking so far? Good. So, if you are shooting at a 10inx10in target at 100 yards and your rounds are impacting 2 inches high how many INCHES should you adjust your sights to hit center mass of the target? Seven right? Ok, so if you're at 100 yards and at 100 yards one minute is roughly equal to one inch, how many inches should you adjust your sights? Seven it is! Now let's test your reading comprehension and my written communication skills...

If you are shooting at a target that is 10inx10in at 600 yards and your rounds are impacting 2 inches high, how many MINUTES do you need to adjust your sights to put your rounds center mass on the target? One. One minute at 600 yards is equivalent to six inches. Clear as mud?

Back to field shooting and slings vs. mag on the ground. The Appleseed standard is 4 minutes of angle. Which means at 400 yards (the longest distance of the AQT) your groups should be roughly 16 inches in diameter. If you torque your barrel with enough force to alter the shot by one minute your group will shift the center of the group by 4 inches. Now that is assuming your torque the rifle in the same exact direction and with the same exact force every time. While you may be consistent, it is impossible for you to repeat the same torque every time in every situation. Now, if your rifle has a free floated barrel this means nothing to you because the sling attachment point is not connected to the barrel and no matter how much you torque the sling the barrel will not move in relation to the sights.

The Appleseed instructors I met are pretty certain that you can't torque your sling enough to completely ruin your shots, or even get you off target. I personally am torn. I'm stubborn and will need to do some of my own research to determine if I fully agree. I will say this though. I do not believe my poor shooting at the Appleseed event was because I was torqueing my barrel too much. I do believe it was directly related to my inability to find a comfortable sturdy platform to shoot from using the sling. This was by no means due to lack of instruction or instructor knowledge, simply my lack of experience and adaptability. I told Ol'Huff before I left Sunday that I want to shoot an AQT with no sling an no mag on the ground (Appleseed does not allow you to put the rifle in contact with the ground to assist in AQTs, well they'd let you but if you had a high enough score you wouldn't get the rifleman patch) I think I would have scored better that with the sling, but I'll have to wait on the next known distance event to test my theory.

The Appleseed Mentality

As I mentioned my initial opinions of the Appleseed folks both online and in person had me on edge. I thought I was dealing with some arrogant folks who taught an outdated form of shooting and talked about overthrowing the government... The little intro that Ol'Huff gave us included a few lines like "I'm embarrassed you all don't know what happened on April 19, 1775" And to be frank I didn't get all the vague references to how troubled our country is and how true patriots and rifleman should do something about it... I was glad no one got very specific or political, but in the tone some of that stuff was delivered one could have probably taken it as a bit anti government and "let's overthrow the government-ish." We heard a lot of talk about answering the bell, "what will you do when the bell rings?" I honestly wanted to ask what freaking bell? (Here comes the rant.... Wait for it.... Ready....now!)

Our country has been at war for over a decade, if you are so darn gung-ho to "answer the bell" put on a uniform. The last bell was rung on September 11th 2001 what did you do when it rang? There were plenty of Appleseed instructors of military age... if you want to answer that bell... I know a local recruiter. (rant off)

Now this is when some folks may want to call my military record in to question and ask what right I have to say what I just said, so let's get it all out in the open. I have been scheduled to deploy on combat tours twice, both times they have been canceled prior to departure date, once just this past spring. I enlisted in 2008 with the full hope and expectation that I would be deployed in harms way within 2 years. It never happened, so I volunteered, that didn't happen either. I have one year left on my military contract and no real hope of completing what I set out to do, go to war. I am not re-enlisting, I have multiple reasons for this, the most important being my wife and a desire to start a family. I'm not a hero, a badass, or CJ Dillard, I've done nothing in my military career, but blow your tax dollars on some fun training. I will probably never set foot on the field of battle and there is an element of guilt and shame that accompanies that reality. If you have a problem with any of that... good for you.

Back to Appleseed.

Appleseed Applied

I wrote before about shooters and killers and this is a part of the curriculum I want to address. There was a lot of talk about the hunting application of the Appleseed style of shooting, there was also some talk about using our skills to defend our homes and country. We were after all shooting at human silhouettes not pie plates. There is a distinct difference between shooters a killers. A shooter can hit a 26x19 inch silhouette at 400 yards. A killer can hit a man at 400 yards.

Appleseed briefly touches on the notion of using shooting for the destruction of human life and I have no problem with that. I would however suggest that if those things are to be discussed it is thoroughly explained that there is much more to killing a man than the 6 steps to firing a shot. Check out the book "On Killing" it's required reading for many government law enforcement agencies and for army officers (at least it used to be.) I don't buy everything in that book, but it definitely gets you thinking about the mentality necessary to take human life and still function normally. This isn't something that should be taken lightly.

The other issue I have with the idea of using loop sling shooting in a combat or defensive scenario is the amount of time it takes to get in position. Even if you walk around with a loop sling on your arm all the time, clipping in and assuming a good position takes a lot more time that just bringing up the rifle and firing, or even dropping to the ground and firing. If you're in a foxhole, laying in a hide or target shooting it may be a good option, but the idea of using this method in a dangerous ever-changing situation is, in my less than humble opinion, a pipe dream.


Circle Up

I've covered a lot and jumped around a bit so I apologize if this was hard to follow. I wrote what came to mind and formal organization wasn't really a priority. I'll do my best to summarize lessons learned here.

Setting the Stage
-   The Indiana National Guard doesn't teach marksmanship often or well. I'm fortunate to have had a better experience.

Finding the Apple
-   Internet forums aren't just full of weird guys in their mom's basement, but some very generous and knowledgeable people.

Preparing for the Range
-   Perspective and humility go a long way in prepping for an event.
-   What to pack
o   Water
o   Ammo
o   Three mags
o   Data book
o   Rain gear
o   Writing utensils
o   Lunch

First Impressions
-   First impressions aren't accurate
-   Don't take the instructor's too seriously, the drill instructor persona is just a tool of the trade. Apply the Bobby Knight rule: don't listen to yelling, listen why he's yelling

Shooting Line Efficiency & Etiquette
-   Move quickly and pay attention, when you're slow you hold the whole group back.
-   Pack light and smart, keep your essential stuff in outside pockets and burry your lunch, a water bladder and hose give you one less thing to fumble with.
-   Keep some loose ammo in your pockets and load your mags during any free moment.

Lunch
-   Pay attention to the history and take notes

Appleseed & History
-   This isn't a place where you'll shoot 1000 rounds in a day and learn how to be a level 17 operator. There is a lot of history taught and it's worth listening to, just be ready.

Appleseed Mentality
-   The rhetoric can be awkward and hard to decipher, don't read too much into it.
-   If you want to "answer the bell" man up and put a uniform on, otherwise I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Appleseed Applied
-   I don't see this as an effective for of combat shooting (there are some Devil Dogs who'll strongly disagree) the length of time it takes to hook in and get a position doesn't lend itself to a dynamic and dangerous environment.

Missed It
   - As far as I can tell there is one thing I meant to elaborate on and I didn't so I'll make it up here. I mentioned rhythm. The hardest part of the whole Appleseed event for me was the lack of a real shooting rhythm. There were such long periods of time between shooting iterations that I lost my rhythm. This isn't really an indictment against the course, more my lack of adaptability. Case in point: The stress shoot. I don't recall whether we ran from the 400 to the 300 or from the 500 to the 400, but we (the class) sprinted a distance of 100 yards, dropped in to position and had to take out 2 balloons with three shots in less than a minute and that included running time. In full kit I popped the first balloon in around 40 seconds and just missed the second. It was the best and most comfortable shooting I did all day and my heart was pounding and I ditched my sling. I was in my comfort zone; fast, physically demanding and competitive. I'm used to move, shoot, move, shoot, drop, shoot, run, shoot...etc. This isn't the place for that so get your head straight, mine wasn't.

All in all, I liked Appleseed and I'll be back. I know my opinions vary on different aspects of the course, but it serves a purpose and they have my support. It's worth the time and money to get to one, regardless of your experience level. New experiences are always learning experiences if your heart and mind are focused properly. Thank you for your time.

Keep your head down and your powder dry.
Kyle



ATM

^ Most epic first post on a forum EVER.  ;)

I'll not address anything you posted, as I'm sure others who were there and involved will have more accurate commentary, but I do want to thank you for your candid feedback and overall support.  O0

Hope to meet you on the trail one of these days.
Say no to drugs. $$-0 Say yes to bacon. O0

slim

^Yeah, what he said!

After I hit this rack and get some shuteye, I'll read all the way through this thing tomorrow and pay attention to detail. Thanks for some solid and candid feedback. We'll do our best to put it to good use.

We're having another one on the 3rd and 4th. Think you could make it? 

Fred


    Nice writeup, Pale Rider!

    Honesty is always sought in AARs and is a critical component to improving the program. Plus the insight into current Army teaching is a plus.

    AQT = Army Qualification Course. ;D

    Three questions spring to mind:

    Was anything said about "Getting comfortable with the sling will take some time..."?

    Was anything said about the Hasty Sling?

    Was anything taught about the Hasty-Hasty Sling?
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

AuntieBellum

If I may, I will take a moment to address the question of the bell.  Answering the ring of the bell in 1775 often meant one thing - grabbing your musket and heading to the fight.  It needed done, and 14,000 colonials showed up on General Gage's doorstep following the events of April 19th.  Even in 1775, though, there were many who answered the bell in different ways.  Paul Revere wasn't armed during his ride on April 18th.  He chose to leave his firepower at home - a decision which ultimately may have saved his life when he was caught by the patrol on the road.  The choice in 1775 was of two, as the colonists saw it - a literal decision between Liberty or Death.

In 2013, though, we have a different scenario.  Because of all of the sacrifices that were made for us leading up to, during, and following the events of April 19, 1775, we've been left with more options.  We have the power as citizens of this great country to change the direction of our townships, our cities, our counties, our states, and our country.  We can step up, speak our minds, talk to our neighbors, volunteer, make a difference, and vote.  We have an active say in the course of our country and can change it.  Ignorance, apathy, and laziness have taken over, though.  Few Americans do more than go to work, come home, turn on the TV, and waste their lives by making an indent on their couch. 

One goal in Appleseed is to reawaken the heritage of marksmanship that this country is quickly leaving behind - but our ultimate goal is to reawaken the American spirit - the same spirit of those Riflemen of so long ago - and promote active civic duty, whatever that may mean to you.  For some it is standing up and literally fighting for our country.  And I greatly thank those who have stood up to do so.  You, Kyle, my family who have stepped up, and everyone who has volunteered have my undying gratitude.  But there are other options for civic duty, as well.  And many of those - starting with our tiny townships, begin by fighting our domestic enemies everyday.  Waking up our neighbors and pulling the blinders off.  Volunteering as a leader for your local scouts or 4H to instill a sense of responsibility in our kids.  Working the polls on election day and being that friendly face that encourages the hesitant to come back again next time.  Taking ownership of a local issue and making a difference.  All of things are important and necessary to save this blessed land from the sinkhole.  And all of those actions are answering the toll of the bell.   O0  You didn't hear anything specific or political since we are a non-partisan organization; if you were to talk to our Appleseed instructors individually, you'd find wide and varied political backgrounds for our volunteers.  The direction this country goes is up to the citizens - if we'll bother to take hold of it and steer it there.  We just want Americans to remember that they're behind the wheel and it's time to wake up and do something.

Kyle, thank you.  It was a pleasure working with you at Atterbury, and I look forward to it again.  I enjoyed working with you (bugging you while I laid down for a break, whatever you might call it  ;) ) and enjoyed our conversations on the range.  I've been waiting and watching on INGO to read your final assessment - so thank you for taking the time to add it on the Appleseed forum, as well.
"Nothing is as strong as the heart of a volunteer."
-Lt. Colonel James Harold "Jimmy" Doolittle, US Army Air Corps, 1942

"You smell like Appleseed." - Rimshot

Pale Rider

Quote from: Fred on July 25, 2013, 06:13:15 AM

    Nice writeup, Pale Rider!

    Honesty is always sought in AARs and is a critical component to improving the program. Plus the insight into current Army teaching is a plus.

    AQT = Army Qualification Course. ;D

    Three questions spring to mind:

    Was anything said about "Getting comfortable with the sling will take some time..."?

    Was anything said about the Hasty Sling?

    Was anything taught about the Hasty-Hasty Sling?

To answer your questions: Yes, yes and yes.

I realize that my AAR comes across somewhat harsh and critical of the course. The reality is I had a blast. I haven't seen a group of more friendly and dedicated volunteers anywhere. The instructors were all very knowledgeable and patient. Sometimes it's just easier to point out the stuff we don't like especially when your a little arrogant...(guilty as charged) Ill be back to Appleseed and provided I can figure this loop sling out I may start volunteering.

Uncle Davey

Thank you for your post Kyle...we love this kind of feedback from first-timers..hope to meet you at a shoot!
Those who stay will be champions. Those who persist will be riflemen.

Eddie

[
-   If you want to "answer the bell" man up and put a uniform on, otherwise I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Kyle
[/quote]

A comment on this.

Joining the military is not the only way to answer the bell.  To me it means being a responsible citizen and a member of your community.  For example:

Volunteering.  Food banks need workers.  Youth leagues need coaches.  Scout troops need leaders.  Often it is the same small group of people who work their tails off volunteering to do all of the little things that need doing to make a community work.  Helping kids helps shape our next generation of riflemen.

Serving.  Local government is often starved for people to sit on boards or serve on committees.  Library boards, Park boards, Zoning Boards, Merit Boards, are often made up of the same small group of overworked people who receive only a token compensation at best.

Running for or holding office.  Not everybody can be the Mayor but town boards, county boards and the less glamorous offices like clerk, recorder or surveyor often have people running unopposed.  Don't like the government ?  Sign up to run and see if you can fix it.

Showing up.  Do you skip that little section of the newspaper where all of the public meetings get listed?  Show up for meetings.  Lots laws and local rules require public meetings and public commentary before decisions can be made.  Have an opinion on an ordinance or a zoning issue?  Show up to the meeting and sound off during public commentary.

When I read about the histories to get ready to tell the three strikes I am always interested to see how civically involved the militia members were.  They didn't just exist in a vacuum training for the next call out.  They served, they volunteered, they were members of their town council, they held positions of trust like constable or church treasurer.

To me that is how to answer the bell.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Slow2Speak

Well.... That Bell got some people to paying attention anyway. Thats my old rusty bell and its got some people thinkin we was havin some kind of a call to arms or something, well it was a call to action. See the way I see it if you cant see the threats this Country is having on it right now you aint paying much attention  Im talking bout domestic and not domestic in the sense of violent Im talking like Auntiebellum and Eddie said. If you ask me the bells a ringing and has been for a long time I also appreciate those who serve overseas against those threats but we got problems here at home that need addressing and thats what were trying to do. Seems like I heard one time that some smart old dead guy said that the two quickest ways to bring a country to its Knees was by the sword and by debt in which the order I dont know. There are lots of threats to a country other than violent thraets that need to be addressed with nonviolent actions and thats what were after. Kyle thanks for the feed back it was great it will help us greatly and thanks for your service and willingness to put yourself in harms way.  By the way Kyle pull the hanguards off an M16 A1 and look at the profile on one of those babys I think this is where the barrel flex thing really got its start you give one of those barrels a dirty  look and it will flex I got one myself here at home they are real lightweight but in appleseed like you said were just tryin to keep it inside 4moa in the Riflemans quarter mile and with the heavy profile barrels most of us are using today I dont think your gonna have to much trouble.

Pale Rider

Eddie, Auntie and Slow

I completely agree with your descriptions of answering the bell! Those are things I can get behind, and others too! Someone should read Eddie's post at every event to break it down for those of us too dense to see through the rhetoric in person.