Pistol Marksmanship

[daniel17319]

I'm just kicking the can around. Has anyone of the instructors thought about a decent marksmanship course for pistol. Say 500 rounds and 2 days.

Thanks

[floydf]

Since you are in the Great State of Texas, check out BattleRoad USA.  Host of the Appleseed shoots at Davilla.
http://www.battleroadusa.com/
http://www.battleroadusa.com/
http://www.battleroadusa.com/
http://www.battleroadusa.com/

I'm just kicking the can around. Has anyone of the instructors thought about a decent marksmanship course for pistol. Say 500 rounds and 2 days.

Thanks

[daniel17319]

I am going to attend a class like this, however the price is prohibitive to me. That is  why i was cementing on Appleseed Pistol course.

Thanks for the info

[Johnnyappleseed]

I have heard good things about Front sight
As a certified NRA pistol instructor I have noticed many common elements bêtween rifle and pistol
Safe rifle
6 steps and npoa

Todd Jarrett teaches the best pistol stance /grip as 2 V s
1 V ---- feet shoulder width --- stand straight up
2nd V  arms extended with thumbs pointing at the target .

The thumbs should be  where the right thumb engages/disengages  the safety and left thumb is just below it ,where it could press the slide release on a 1911 style pistol .

[colycat]

I'm just kicking the can around. Has anyone of the instructors thought about a decent marksmanship course for pistol. Say 500 rounds and 2 days.

Thanks

There was a schism back in 06 over Appleseed doing pistol.

Its not gonna happen.  No way, no how, as it doesn't fit into the message of a nation of rifleman who created a country.

[slim]

Fred told me doing a "pistols Appleseed" was a wonderful idea and we could do it.

... as soon as everyone's been through the rifle course.

[daniel17319]

That would be cool id like to a Pistolseed. No problem with doing a reg Appleseed shoot first. I know for a fact that pistols were used in the fight for independence no proof however. All those training places are great ( (Front Sight) and I have researched them. They are prohibitively costly. Money isn't rolling in like it use too, that's why Appleseed is so great, us po people can get good training for very low price or free.

Thanks for the feedback, but I really do think pistol marksmanship should be addressed, a person is more likely to use a pistol as a tool then a rifle, again I have no facts to back that up. I love Project Appleseed just pointing this out to yall...

[George Hacker]

Thanks for the feedback, but I really do think pistol marksmanship should be addressed, a person is more likely to use a pistol as a tool then a rifle, again I have no facts to back that up. I love Project Appleseed just pointing this out to yall...

Do some research on Timothy Murphy and his influence on the Revolutionary War.  Could he have had that impact with a pistol instead of a rifle?

ShadowMan

[daniel17319]

There you go shadowman

[2 clicks low]

Fred told me doing a "pistols Appleseed" was a wonderful idea and we could do it.

... as soon as everyone's been through the rifle course.

Ok, there's like +-330,000,000 people. I did 16 AS's last year. GF would kill me if I tried for more that 20 this year. Hmmmmmmm. Double every year..... Cipher, cipher, naught, naught, cipher, carry the zero.........Uhhhh...... Got it. I'll start writing a Pistol COF in 2028.

2cl

[Caliper]

Well, just like Appleseed teaches basically the Army marksmanship program from the 1940-50 era, there are resources out there documenting how the Army taught guys to use the 1911 pistol back in the day.  A quick search of Youtube ("army pistol training 1911") turned up a number of WWII films on handgun training. 

[George Hacker]

daniel17319,

Good question, BTW, and welcome to the forums.  Have you been to an Appleseed shoot yet?  if so, where and how did you like it?

ShadowMan

[daniel17319]

Yah i been to a shoot, I was going to go to another one this December but didn't make it. I retired from the military and been trying to improve on skill sets I learned their.  I'm going to go to as many shoots as i can this year, Basically everything in a 4 hour radius that i drive to minus emergency or lack of funds. I also want to do mini silhouette shooting as well as other combat related competitions. Hopefully nothing to wild will come up and we can still afford ammo and purchase rifles in the coming months.

I know it may not happen Pistolseed but it would be great and really don't see why it couldn't happen. Ive seen the video marksmanship WW2 video but nothing beats Task Conditions and Standards, and knowledgeable instructors. My question to you guys is what would it take to do at least on Pistolseed regionally one time a year.

Thanks again Gentlemen

EDIT; Bad Grammar.

[olefido]

My feelings on this are that as much as love to shoot anything(pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc.) there are a lot of pistol courses already out there and readily available to the public. They are much more prolific than rifle courses. I think AS needs  to stick to rifle marksmanship training to fill a need that is out there.

Also, Applegate and Fairbairn aside, the skill sets of pistol shooting and combat application have changed a lot since WWII. Look at many of those old training films and you will still see a lot of Bullseye shooting stances and "Cup and Saucer" grips. Not very self defense or combat effective. Rifle training on the other hand has changed some(US Army Quick Fire system) and our understanding of combat applications of the rifle has evolved but the skill sets you learn at an AS are just as valid to the battlefield today as they were in WWII, the Revolutionary War,  or GWOT.

[AndyFong]

Seeing as there might not be a pistolseed shoot until after we get the Nation of Riflemen thing fully put together (2028 by 2CL's math, but if you help out some more with the Seventh Stepping, we'll get to a Nation of Riflemen and Pistolmen that much quicker!), a little bit of independent study might be required. 

If you already understand the Six Steps to Firing a Shot (Rifle) taught at Appleseed, you also understand the Six Steps to Firing a Pistol Shot, because they are suspiciously similar. 

The steady hold factors of pistol shooting might be a little bit different though.  Independent study, by manual and video, is a way to learn those pistol steady hold factors, but the best way to understand them will be one-on-one (or small group) range time with an instructor.

I have no specific leads for local instructors to you.  But competent instruction doesn't have to come from a big name school or famous instructor (when you add tuition and ammo, to travel, hotel & food costs, the dollar signs get big quick!).  There are local resources as well.  Ask at local gun shops, or check out the bulletin board at local ranges.  Do a Google search for "Your town" and "pistol marksmanship" (or similar terms).  Ask local CHL instructors if they also teach pistol marksmanship.

Communicate with potential instructors.  Be clear about what kind of instruction you want (marksmanship instruction vs CHL vs "tactical").  Ask them about their success rate (and if they can quantify it (ie trained X number of state/regional/local champs, etc).  Ask them what their program of instruction covers (a good answer might include fundamentals, and drills based on student goals and student performance).

You are getting  the benefit of the instructor's time and expertise (some would argue 'specialized' expertise).  Appleseed instructors are volunteers working to re-awaken a nation of Riflemen.  The financial model for private firearms instruction is slightly different (meaning getting two days of group instruction at Appleseed prices is unlikely).

[funfaler]

Tactical Response may be a good source for a pistol course if you are interested:  http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

In the past, he has offered courses to Red Hats at a discount, can't say if that is still the case, but worth asking.

As far as a "pistolseed" ......      

[oladcock]

Appleseed has it's hands full as it is. Being a CHL holder, all the pistol is good for in saving this country is to fight your way back to your rifle!

With that said, we (wife and I) assist CHL instructors in our area both to provide demos of tactics and techniques, and as RSO's on range day. Many instructors need assistance in these areas and if they are good instructors, offering to help them is a zero cost way to learn and get hands on practice. What do you do at the end of the class? You hand our Appleseed flyers and give them the pitch! We get many on the lines with a rifle this way.....O.L.

[nyrasgt]

OAD, ff, et. al.,
    Concur with the above; have taught Pre-Pistol Licensing Safety Course 30+ yrs, monthly, and see about equal interest split between NRA Pistol classes and Appleseeds...folks new to shooting want pistol and rifle instruction..."you rang?"

    Two more weeks till 2012 Instructor Discount Programs expire (including new Keystone, makers of the Crickett mini-rifles);
will post notice of 2013 programs when the manufs send 'em out.

   Get ready to order cases of the 2013 CMP catalog, too.
Excelsior,
madMark/nyrasgt

[TOMINCT]

Appleseed has it's hands full as it is. Being a CHL holder, all the pistol is good for in saving this country is to fight your way back to your rifle!

+1 on this issue. It is tough for many to get to use a rifle for AS in some jurisdictions due to local laws on possessing and using a rifle, let alone a pistol. In our quest to awaken the country we have dealt with those that need a lot of instruction before they attain RM. This would be many times more involved with a sidearm. JMHO.

Also, costs escalate many times over with training, legal aspects attached to fees involved, etc. It wouldn't fly in many places for this reason alone. Ask someone from Massachusetts for instance.

[daniel17319]

I know i think it is  , i may take a look around get involved in IDPA maybe do some stuff threw the CMP for pistol.

[funfaler]

I know i think it is  , i may take a look around get involved in IDPA maybe do some stuff threw the CMP for pistol.

Now here is the rub....or perhaps better stated, the opportunity.

While AS does not do pistols, many pistol owners are looking for rifle instruction as well (or at least they need to be).   So while you are out improving your pistol skills, you have a very well suited audience for promotions of AS and what the program has to offer.   

People who are willing and open to receiving pistol instruction will be very open to suggestions they consider a very economical rifle marksmanship course.   

So don't forget to wear your Appleseed T-shirt and talk the program up, and take some printed information along with you.

So even when you are engaged in "personal skill enhancement", you can be "saving the country". 

[oladcock]

And be ready to put yourself through therapy to get your trigger control back after shooting IDPA! ..O.L.

[Colorado Pete]

To see how well a handgun can be shot, watch some local IPSC/USPSA practical matches. Then find out who the top dogs are and chat them up a bit. From Class A up through Master/Grandmaster shoot like wizards. They all use pretty much the same technique.

Proper grip & stance for recoil control, and intense front sight focus through the recoil cycle allow for very fast aimed shots with full sight picture evaluation at quarter-second (or faster) speeds, with the mechanics trained to subconscious levels for reflexive use at high speed.

This is practical shooting, not one-hand precision bullseye. A practical course of instruction includes the draw, malfunction clearances, and reloading.

[slim]

As others have alluded to, if you stick around Appleseed long enough, you'll come across some pistoleros and they'll share their skills with you - usually for free.

I've had probably $30,000 worth of marksmanship training absolutely free from 'seeders who'd been through some other course or are active instructors in other disciplines and would gladly swap me their knowledge for mine.

Stick around long enough, go to enough Appleseeds, and you can get trained on just about anything. Guess how many communication operators, carpenters, commercial pilots, candlestick makers we have in our program?

[daniel17319]

Ill defiantly check it out, especially IDPA they fit my schedule better then most other groups, locally at least.

[CTShooter]

I teach advanced pistol, we shoot out to 200 yards with 4" barrel pistols (and hit stuff too), AS instructors that would like some coaching feel free to contact me.

[jmdavis]

It is true that Murphy didn't use a pistol at Saratoga (as far as we know). But to discount the use of the pistol in combat is to ignore history.

After runningt low on rifle ammunition. Alvin York used a pistol to defend himself against 6 Germans and then capture 132 more.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/1900s/p/World-War-I-Sergeant-Alvin-C-York.htm


During Vietnam a SEAL (who's favorite weapon was a Stoner Machine Gun), used a .45 to protect a downed air crew from a company of North Vietnamese hitting them at distances up to 150 meters.  In this case the shooter was a member of the Navy Marksmanship Team.  His Bullseye pistol experience paid off that day.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vietnam-war-action-historical-proof-of-45-acp-s-famed-takedown-power



In target shooting there is Elmer Keith  shooting with the pistol out to 700 yards. To this we could add the hunter pistol silhouette shooters, who regularly shoot small targets with the pistol out to 100m.

[hawkeye]

Pistolseed is on the schedule for 4May Ramseur,NC Stay tuned.

[Green Bean]

Prior to appleseed, for almost 15yrs on a pistol qualification I would score about 330 out of a possible 360 points. I can honestly say that becoming a rifleman and IIT has improved my pistol to the point where I can consistently almost shoot a perfect pistol qualification score.

During my time with AS I have not been practicing at all with my pistol. Just shoot qualification targets 4x a year.  So what made my pistol go from good to perfect?  Answer is focus on front sight, front sight, front sight and trigger control.  Also hours and hours of dry fire practice to really learn and drive home front sight, trigger pull, follow through and calling my shots. 


Battle Road is a project of Scout's who is also the Texas State Coordinator for Appleseed.  Don't quote me on it but he is know to offer Battle Road discounts to his AS instructors. 

The cheapest and easiest way to improve your shooting is to earn your rifleman patch and become and instructor.  You would be surprised what doors the patch and hat will open up for you. 

[Green Bean]

Pistolseed is on the schedule for 4May Ramseur,NC Stay tuned.

Any chance for a Pistolseed the weekend before the next RBC this summer?  That might motivate me to take another trip up to Ramseur this summer.  I just need an excuse to give the family for why an have to fly up to Ramseur again.