Author Topic: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input  (Read 4081 times)

Offline Nero

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Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« on: November 26, 2012, 02:55:33 AM »
I will have a deaf shooter on our line in December, attending with his buddy who is a new IIT.  He is profoundly deaf, as in he doesn't even use hearing protection.  OTOH, he is an excellent lipreader.  He attended my light rifle class this weekend, was able to follow instruction so long as he could see me speaking, and was safe on the line.

AFAICT, the biggest challenge will be line commands, particularly during timed COF.  With a probable 40 person line, I may not be able to devote an instructor to him.

Suggestions?

Offline Pitmaster

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 07:40:56 AM »
I would figure out a cease fire command first. In this case put him directly in front of the line boss with a piece of rope attached to him. Signal Cease Fire by yanking the rope 3x. You might practice a couple of times.

 Or place lights that can be flashed directly in front of him to use as a signal. Might even use red, green, & yellow, as line commands via a push button system for the line boss. Red=No shoot, yellow=prep, green=line is hot. I would use a higher watt bulb for red, yellow, with green being less distracting.

No matter what expect some occasional confusion while both are learning the system.

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Offline Unbridled Liberty

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 08:06:32 AM »
Gotta run to work and will try to write more later.  I will nix the rope idea as likely offensive to the individual and a trip hazard.  I think there was a thread some time ago about accommodating deaf shooters.  Try searching and I will check back in after work.

UL

Offline Believer

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 08:56:08 AM »
How about asking the participant next to him to work out a signal with him.  A tap on the shoulder?

An opposite handed person to the deaf shooter would be nice.  That way they could make eye contact while in position.

Worked for me a few years ago.
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Offline BeSwift

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 09:17:18 AM »
Short of a stop light idea, I'd put an IIT on him and work out a series of tap commands on his shoulder or foot. 
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Offline Believer

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 09:29:11 AM »
I would encourage folks to come up with solutions that do not involve 1 on 1 Instructor attention for the entire weekend. 
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Offline Mutti

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 10:18:21 AM »
He most likely is attuned to what is happening around him a bit better than the rest of us. Maybe the attendee already owns a vibrating watch or something that you could incorporate?

So - determine the line commands that do need addressing vs those who don't.

K.I.S.S. via BeSwift : LSO tap his foot/shoulder as you start/stop the timer during "fire" and "Cease Fire! Cease Fire! Cease Fire!"

More complicated :

I don't have a "smart phone" or "cell phone", but couldn't you use the vibration of that or a beeper for the items that he cannot pick up via peripheral vision? You'd largely be dependant upon the reception unless he has a smartphone that has a "timer" app that can be preprogrammed during the prep period so that when he starts it (on the fire command) or a device like this : Ultrak T-5 Vibrating Silent Timer http://www.bodytronics.com/p/timers/ULT5?s=fg&gclid=CL_xicDn7LMCFehDMgodSHAA7Q
Quote
Memory allows quick recall for repetitive timing tasks



Shooters! Your preparation period begins now! (observation - action should alert him)
Shooters! Your prepatation period has ended! (observation - action should alert him)

transitions (action should alert him)

With _ rounds, load! (action should alert him)

Is the line ready? (no action needed on his part)

Ready on the right? ( " )

Ready on the Left? ( " )

All ready on the firing line! (  " )

Fire! (Timer started by shooter or signal sent)

Cease Fire! Cease Fire! Cease Fire (Timer vibrates).

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Offline SteelThunder

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2012, 11:12:50 AM »
My very first IIT experience I was paired all day with a deaf shooter.  It was a good experience for me and was absolutely necessary for him.  It allowed me to give/him to receive 1-on-1 instruction.  We developed a hand signal system for prep periods and a tap system for cease fire.

Highly recommend a dedicated person and a hand signal, tap system.
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Offline dragit

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2012, 11:17:44 AM »
I played peewee football with a deaf kid.  He watched the football, when it moved, he moved.  He was very acute in his other senses.  Put him in front of the shoot boss.  For transition stages he can watch shooter next to him, when shooter drops he will to.  Stage 1 & 4 should not be a prob timewise.  Stages 2 & 3 an instructor or LB can tap his foot for cease fire, he will feel it.  I do not talk to shooters for stages 2 & 3, so lack of instructors to signal him would not be a prob on my line.  YMMV.
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Offline Nero

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2012, 11:27:15 AM »
I would encourage folks to come up with solutions that do not involve 1 on 1 Instructor attention for the entire weekend.

 O0

Offline PaxxAZ

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 12:26:29 PM »
Shortest fastest command should be cease fire. All others are secondary.
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Offline Transform

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 03:55:56 PM »
According to the Adaptive Appleseed Admissions Manual, a 1 on 1 interpreter is required on the line.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12730.0
Since the A AS manual lists our "minimum requirements", it would seem reasonable to ask "his buddy who is a new IIT" to serve as an interpreter, rather than as an IIT, for the weekend. (The new IIT will still learn a LOT and the experience may help to make him a better IIT.) Otherwise, the shooter should bring along an interpreter.

This is not only a question of safety, or convenience, or instructor ratios, it is also a matter of respect, both for the adaptive shooter, and for the A AS team who spent three years putting the policy together. Either we welcome adaptive shooters or we don't; if we do then let's ensure the necessary resources to get the job done right.

The bottom line is that many adaptive shooters don't enjoy asking for accommodations, and really, they shouldn't even have to ask. When we welcome them, it becomes our responsibility to initiate that conversation. Often, if you ask someone with a disability if they "need" help, you'll get a stoic negative response, but if instead you ask what help would be most useful, you're more likely to get appreciation and clear requests.

Additional information in the Tap Command System thread:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=11082.msg135847#msg135847
and in one of the Hearing Impaired Student threads:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9923.0


Offline Nero

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 04:10:30 PM »
According to the Adaptive Appleseed Admissions Manual, a 1 on 1 interpreter is required on the line.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=12730.0
Since the A AS manual lists our "minimum requirements", it would seem reasonable to ask "his buddy who is a new IIT" to serve as an interpreter, rather than as an IIT, for the weekend. (The new IIT will still learn a LOT and the experience may help to make him a better IIT.) Otherwise, the shooter should bring along an interpreter.

I would help if folks considered the OP carefully.  The shooter does not need an interpreter, he is a highly capable lip reader, and has already shown both that and demonstrated safe rifle handling on an uncalled, hot firing line.  So long as I make sure he has a clear line of sight to the instructors, he should have no problems with the training parts of the weekend.

I may not be able to designate an instructor to go 1-1 on the line for the shoot without compromising the safety of the entire line, which I will not do.

The issue is how to keep the adaptive shooter safe, and prevent early and late fires on a called line, if I can't provide 1-1.  So far, pairing him with a left handed shooter, and stationing him in front of an RSO or the Line Boss so they can give him a 'poke' sound like good ideas.  (For once, someone who won't complain about being right next to the speakers of our firing line sound system!)

Offline Transform

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 04:41:35 PM »
I most certainly did "consider the OP carefully" Nero, and I'm politely disagreeing with several of your basic assumptions. Please reread/reconsider my post with that fact in mind.

Also, I purposefully wrote interpreter, not instructor. I wouldn't pull an instructor off the line for 1:1 either.


Anyway, aside from the Tap Commands on the line, here are some of the other accommodations most likely to be overlooked by the hearing:
 - All instructors should be reminded to face someone who reads lips when talking to them. Turning away to look at something, or bending down to pick up a dropped pen, is the same as going silent in mid-sentence.
 - During instruction and history, the instructor speaking need not face the lip reader directly, but should pause their speech when turning away to move, gesture, or point out the steady hold factors.
 - Dropping your voice, as when making a side comment, also makes it much harder to read lips.
 - Depending on the individual, visuals are often really helpful. It might be easy to follow the story line but difficult to pick up names and places without a visual aid to show the spelling. Another solution would be for the speaker to tell the person who reads lips the names of the people and places that will be mentioned ahead of time.
 - Don't forget to repeat minor side-comments, made by those facing away from the shooter, just because it sucks to be left out of the conversation.
 - Finally, both eyes and ears should still be required on the line, even if someone is deaf.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 04:47:39 PM by Transform »

Offline Unbridled Liberty

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 06:21:36 PM »
Transform is quite correct.  The Adaptive Appleseed Admissions Manual is chock full of answers.  The "thread" I was thinking of this morning before work was the section in the A.AS Manual that specifically addresses this.

UL

Offline slim

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2012, 10:55:15 PM »
He should still wear hearing protection even though he has no hearing to protect. The concussive nature of gun shots and prolonged exposure to high decibel noise can cause inner-ear damage and someday affect his equilibrium and quite possibly, other things as well.

Have him put in foamies at the very least.

We have a very skilled IIT (who should be a Shoot Boss by now but she's only 15!) who is an ASL translator and worked with a deaf shooter for an entire weekend. If I recall, they had ZERO issues with the line commands, fire/cease fire, etc., because the deaf shooter could still "hear" the concussions through feel and didn't fire until someone else did and generally paid attention to what everyone else was doing.

We were spoiled in that we could have a 1 on 1 instructor but it became clear PDQ that the instructor was doing more translating than line commands. As others have said, it's really not that big of a deal when it comes to safety since the shooter will be paying more attention than everyone else. Our shooter was on the left (right handed) and could see most of the line and therefore just did what everyone else was doing.

Keeping in mind the OP and the limited availability of resources, I say you park the shooter next to the LB/RSO and use the tap system. Bringing back an old wrestling trick, a taped up towel does wonders when thrown at someone. Those unorthodox CEASE FIREs that could possibly pop up could be solved by "throwing in the towel" if the shooter can't be reached immediately.

Above all, ask the shooter for their input and heed their advice. This isn't their first rodeo!

Offline Lyberty

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 11:37:55 PM »
I worked at an appleseed with a deaf shooter, who was also my friend.  That was my first Appleseed as an orange hat.  Interpreting POI into ASL and working with her 1-on-1 was great not only for the shooter, but for me as well.  I learned how to work "behind the line." I was not sure what to expect as an IIT and I wasn't comfortable enough with the POI's to actually work with a bunch of people I wasn't familiar with.  Working with my friend gave her 1-on-1 instruction and gave flexibility to the line boss; he did not to have to worry about "throwing a rag" or "yanking a rope" or flipping a light off or on.  Similar to this situation, my friend could lip read.  For non AQT COF and stages 1 and 4 of the AQT, she looked at me and read my lips as I echoed the line commands (I also signed them, but she wasn't really 'listening' to it; she was watching for load or fire).  For stages 2 and 4, she watched other shooters transition.  For cease fire, I used the tap command one firm tap in the middle of her back. We made other instructors aware of that command in case I was (for some unknown reason) unavailable to be there and another instructor was the only other person available to communicate that command.

Prior to the Appleseed, I met with my friend at the range and showed her how to operate her rifle, reviewed the line commands, and worked on our tap commands.  (the tap command was her idea!  It was great that she came up with it, so that way other instructors were comfortable with it)  For instructing, I placed my hand on her trigger shoulder instead of tapping her back so she would know it wasn't a cease fire, and she would turn and wait for me to either sign or speak.

I would recommend your IIT to work out some sort of tap command system with the deaf shooter prior to coming to the Appleseed.  Furthermore, I recommend assigning your new IIT to the shooter to let him/her get a preview of "behind the line" work, the deaf shooter will understand much more instruction and COF, and it gives the Shoot Boss one less thing to worry about.  Even if you are short staffed, safety is our number one priority and the IIT can work with shooters on either side of the deaf shooter. 
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Offline desertrat144

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 02:56:18 PM »
This may be a bit late for the particular Seed, but that's why we have the Adaptive Appleseed Manual, all points were thoroughly discussed prior to publishing it.  Just a short recap:
  • Yes, even the profoundly deaf must use hearing protection.
  • No Service Animals on or near the line.
  • The shooter, no matter how adept is required to have an assistant to relay commands.  The only exception is if there is a fool proof way to do it electronically.  Since the A.AS Manual was published, there have been quantum leaps in LED remote display technology, this includes color bars, word commands, light intensity, &c., it's cheap and doable.  Command input could be done by anyone willing to do it, the person in the next lane, an IT an so on.  The final method would be determined by the SB as safe or not.
    Note: A.AS was set up to make sure a person could participate safely while not using AS resources, e.g. the Instructor Corps, as they are already busy enough.


At this time Lyberty is the 'go to' person for hearing impaired shooters.  She signed a complete AS several years ago, and has been indispensable in doing the Hearing Impaired section of the A.AS Manual.

Tom
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Offline Nero

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 11:40:58 PM »
Here are some more details I've gotten on this situation, as it may well provide some new AA information:

The shooter in question turns out to have a cochlear implant, which he received at the age of 5, so has grown up with it, and is able to function without accommodation in most cases.  These are still uncommon, so not sure if we'll have had one on the lines before.

He's apparently quite good at picking up voices that he knows well, even without view of the speaker, but lip reading may still be of assistance with new voices / novel topics.  (Which is probably what gave me the impression that he was tracking me.)

He's got no problem with wearing some foamies for the sake of appearance, and we can easily arrange for him to be in line of sight of the instructors.  We can start out with a tap system on the line, and see if he can perceive the line commands well enough to do without it - which is likely since we'll position him near our PA system.

I'll let you all know how it goes.

Offline Believer

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Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 02:12:22 PM »

    Furthermore, I recommend assigning your new IIT to the shooter to let him/her get a preview of "behind the line" work, the deaf shooter will understand much more instruction and COF, and it gives the Shoot Boss one less thing to worry about.  Even if you are short staffed, safety is our number one priority and the IIT can work with shooters on either side of the deaf shooter.



    Note: A.AS was set up to make sure a person could participate safely while not using AS resources, e.g. the Instructor Corps, as they are already busy enough.[/li]
    [/list]

    At this time Lyberty is the 'go to' person for hearing impaired shooters.  She signed a complete AS several years ago, and has been indispensable in doing the Hearing Impaired section of the A.AS Manual.


    Which is correct?  Designed to not use AS Resources OR use a dedicated IIT?

    On a side note, I had a soccer player play for me with a cochlear implant.  She could hear me on the far side of the soccer field with her back turned.  I found it helped to cup my hands around my mouth when calling to her that far away, but she would turn and look at me.  Was one of her teammates helping her hear me?  Not sure.
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    Offline Transform

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 03:06:05 PM »
    Quote
    Which is correct?  Designed to not use AS Resources OR use a dedicated IIT?

    This apparent contradiction is not an actual contradiction, as I already explained in Reply #11 above.

    If the shooter is not deaf, he should just pay his $70 and come shoot.
    If the shooter is deaf, he need not pay but must bring along an interpreter.
    If his buddy acts as his interpreter, then he is not "really" serving as an IIT that weekend, but it is still in Appleseed's best interests to treat him as an IIT anyway, because of the learning opportunity this will provide at the IIT0 level.

    Flatly stated, the experience of serving as an interpreter AND as an IIT may make him a Red Hat one shoot sooner, but more important, the perspective gained will almost certainly make him a better instructor later.

    Finally, if the IIT does NOT serve as an interpreter, simply due to resource allocation issues, then the fault is really ours, for not making the interpreter requirement clear to this shooter earlier in the process.


    Offline Believer

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #21 on: November 30, 2012, 03:59:10 PM »
    My question is general in nature and not specific to the situation at hand. I believe Desert Rats comment to be general as well.

    The RWVA A AS policy was designed not to use AS resources is my understanding, the distinction is important.
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    Offline AFTERMATH

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #22 on: November 30, 2012, 06:06:36 PM »
    Here are some more details I've gotten on this situation, as it may well provide some new AA information:

    The shooter in question turns out to have a cochlear implant, which he received at the age of 5, so has grown up with it, and is able to function without accommodation in most cases.  These are still uncommon, so not sure if we'll have had one on the lines before.

    He's apparently quite good at picking up voices that he knows well, even without view of the speaker, but lip reading may still be of assistance with new voices / novel topics.  (Which is probably what gave me the impression that he was tracking me.)

    He's got no problem with wearing some foamies for the sake of appearance, and we can easily arrange for him to be in line of sight of the instructors.  We can start out with a tap system on the line, and see if he can perceive the line commands well enough to do without it - which is likely since we'll position him near our PA system.

    I'll let you all know how it goes.


    You could have him bring another friend to act as an intermediary...  That would fulfill the new to me requirement for a deaf person to have an interpreter...  It would not pull an instructor off the line.  And it would be one more person to hear the strikes!  ;)
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    Offline Nero

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #23 on: November 30, 2012, 06:19:56 PM »
    Here are some more details I've gotten on this situation, as it may well provide some new AA information:

    The shooter in question turns out to have a cochlear implant, which he received at the age of 5, so has grown up with it, and is able to function without accommodation in most cases.  These are still uncommon, so not sure if we'll have had one on the lines before.

    He's apparently quite good at picking up voices that he knows well, even without view of the speaker, but lip reading may still be of assistance with new voices / novel topics.  (Which is probably what gave me the impression that he was tracking me.)

    He's got no problem with wearing some foamies for the sake of appearance, and we can easily arrange for him to be in line of sight of the instructors.  We can start out with a tap system on the line, and see if he can perceive the line commands well enough to do without it - which is likely since we'll position him near our PA system.

    I'll let you all know how it goes.


    You could have him bring another friend to act as an intermediary...  That would fulfill the new to me requirement for a deaf person to have an interpreter...  It would not pull an instructor off the line.  And it would be one more person to hear the strikes!  ;)

    Based on input from the shooter, and those who have worked with him before, I am not going to require an intermediary.  He's able to talk on the phone, for crying out loud!  We'll do the tap thing at the start, just as an excess of caution, but if he can 'hear' the PA system sufficiently I'm just going to declare him not-adaptive and carry on.  (I say 'hear' just because I gather that the techno/neural adaptation of the cochlear implant is similar to, but not quite the same, as the usual hearing sense.  For one thing, it seems to have a built-in automatic volume control, like you get with electronic earmuffs.)

    Offline Reckless Rick

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 10:59:06 AM »
    great choice....

    I think this brings up a great point that should be addressed in the safety brief......find out if anyone has any special needs when it comes to attenting a appleseed?

    Example:can a cochlear impant  put up with someone next to them with a 30 cal all day long?
    Look,Listen and support...not always the easiest

    Offline Nero

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 12:12:28 PM »
    How this worked out:

    Pretty much perfectly.  We stationed the shooter in question right next to our mid-firing line PA system.  (Finally, someone who won't complain about the sound level!).  Used the tap system with him on the AM Redcoat.  He had no trouble in 'hearing' the commands from the PA, so we carried on from there as if he was a non-adaptive shooter.  No problems with that at all, and he came within two shots of clearing his PM redcoat.

    Offline Unbridled Liberty

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 05:16:05 PM »
    Good deal Nero.  Glad it worked out.  Thanks for the follow-up.

    UL

    Offline Nero

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »
    The one thing that surprised me is that apparently the cochlear implant gadget is not waterproof (or at least his was not).  Since we got subjected to a steady rain for the PM, that meant he had to keep his head covered continually.  Just mentioning it in case it might become an issue elsewhere.

    Offline desertrat144

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    Re: Deaf shooter on the line - need some input
    « Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 04:02:50 PM »
    Again a bit late on the replies, but...
            Great that all worked out.
            Good to know about the water issues.
            And Transform was dead on about using a IIT0 & its benefits.

    Now to address the intent of the guide and Appleseed resources.  As I stated in a earlier post this thread, things have changed exponentially with Hearing & Hearing Adaptive devices.  The discussion in this thread, particularly the use of a IIT0 if available, is what was in mind when written. 

    At that time the AS Line Instructors were not spread out as thin as now.  Also that declaration was a fail safe to protect the program from ne'er do wells & their attorneys.  Access is predicated by reading the requirements and making the proper contacts before showing up at a Seed.  The written A.AS Manuals are clear about compliance and consequences.

    Science will continue to advance and aid those adaptive needs folks that need help and can access it.  Three years ago, a completely blind guy did some remarkable air rifle shooting at the NRA St. Louis Convention, and yes there was a request by a blind guy already.  The onus to the participant is read the regs, ask questions & get answers, get the proper support equipment needed on their own prior to the Seed, or show up and stand a chance of not being able to fully participate because there weren't enough folks to do what the participant should have done to prepare.

    The above may sound harsh, but safety- everyone's is the bottom line.
    "Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond it's limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." - President Ronald Wilson Reagan