Scope Rifleman vs. Iron Sight Rifleman?

[DublinSeeders]

I'm a noob. I spent several days over the past few months at the range getting familiar with my Mini 14. My Appleseed Shoot was last weekend. I clearly understand sight alignment and sight picture on my 14 with its Tech Sight rear sight and factory front blade. NPOA makes complete sense to me and even though it's not yet natural for me to settle in to NPOA, it will be by the time I attend my next AS. Practice makes perfect. That's my plan.

I topped out at 192 on the AQT. My rookie wife topped out at 202 with a M&P 15-22. I'm okay with her outshooting me, but I was pretty confident I'd shoot 210 on Sunday. Never got close. After a lot of reflection and introspection, I realized that I never saw much of the smaller targets. Focusing on the front sight makes everything at 25 yards a fuzzy blur. Thanks to LASIK a bunch of years ago, my vision is 20/20. Focusing on the target clears up the target, but makes the relationship between the sight and the target very vague.

I was determined to make Rifleman on iron sights. The advantage of a scope seems almost like gaming the rules. While I would still love to make Rifleman with my Mini 14 or M1A on iron sights, I don't think my eyes will cooperate. Darn expensive too, especially in .308. What do you guys think about scope Rifleman vs. iron sights Rifleman? Am I making too much out of it?

[dragit]

Please do not take this as a derogatory reply to your skills. I blamed iron sights for a long time also. Then one day I was we'll above 210. Endeavor to persevere. A scope makes targets easier to see but you still have to execute the shot. I watch many scope shooters struggle. I recommend trying your wife's S&W for comparison. KNS Precision makes reduced diameter sight posts. I recommend them.

[SteelThunder]

There is no shame in using a scope.  Especially for those of us whose eyesight is failing as we near the 50 yr mark.

That said, if you are 20/20, then don't blame the irons.  The front sight IS supposed to be clear and the target IS supposed to be fuzzy.  The whole concept is setting a crisp front sight (which controls the indexing of the rifle) on a fuzzy target.  The fact that it is fuzzy doesn't take away that you have a very clear idea of where the edges of the target are.  Fuzzy or sharp, you are able to distinguish it.  Hundreds of years of long range competition iron sight shooters have proven this system.

I used to have very good vision but in the last 8 years after turning 40 it has gone south very quickly.  That said, I originally shot Rifleman with an iron sighted 20" AR15 and have shot Rifleman twice at actual distance with that same 20" iron sighted AR15.  On a day to day basis I shoot a scoped 10/22 and I can guarantee you my scores do not improve with the scope.

ST2

[oladcock]

Scope or irons make no difference in how solid your position is, your execution of the 6 steps, or your NPOA. As stated above, with focus on the front post, the targets will be fuzzy and my almost 60 eyes, the 400yd targets will fade out, the trick is to refocus (breath/blink) on the target then focus back to your sights. No shame either way however, once you cross the 210, then look at other sights/rifles as the next challenge to master. Soon it won't matter, pick anything up and shoot it!

My wife and I did our first seeds with our AR's. Big mistake.. Fun.. But we should have used .22's first. For what we spent in ammo, we could have bought 2 brand spanking new 10-22's. That's what we did for the next one and joined the ranks of rifleman. Once the fundamentals are down, the caliber will matter little. If you can't do it with a .22, you can't with anything bigger either. So get over that hump first, then challenge yourself with bigger rifles, different sights, or the holy grail, shooting weak side! ....O.L.

P.S...My wife gives me a run for my money too, that's a good thing.....

[Caliper]

First off, Riflemen are Riflemen, regardless of what sights you used.  I say that even as I am partial to iron sights. 

Yup, fuzzy target on top of the front sight post.  Works at 25yd, works at 400yd.  Heck, it even works at 600yd for CMP shooters.  Just maintain a consistent sight picture.  Whether you like a center hold, 6:00 hold or 6:00 with a thin line of white.  Keep that same picture with each shot.  Practice the two pieces of step 4 (focus eye on front sight / focus mind on keeping the front sight on the target) at home on reduced size targets. 

Regarding front sight posts, opinions differ on what to use.  I switched from a skinny National Match size post to the wider A2 type on my AR15.  I found I could focus on it better.  My eyes just would never get a clear focus on the skinny post.  OTOH, I do like a smaller rear aperture, just be aware that if the lighting isn't as bright a small aperture will hinder you seeing anything at all. 

Since you have 20/20 vision, any advantage a scope gives you on the AQT is mental.  If anything, scopes can lead to fussing the shot by magnifying your natural wobble and can hinder you learning to call your shot.  Now, a scope is great for target acquisition and identification, but that's not really needed on the AQT. 

[oladcock]

I'm the other way around on the front post, I prefer it to be no more than 4 moa, many of the AR types are 10+. Easily fixed with a drill press and a file! ...O.L.

[Rocket Man]

Personally I like an 8 MOA front post -- especially in low light.

To the OP, if you can shoot at 192 with irons, you can (eventually) shoot a 210.  I was similar (got stuck at 193!) before I really analyzed my AQTs and noticed my shots on Stage 4 were all drifting high.  The D-targets were so blurred for me that I was holding into them too far.  Next AQT I included the bottom edge of the paper in my sight picture, i.e., shot where the I knew the D-targets were even if I couldn't see them, and got a 214 right away.

Having said that, eventually most of us will need a scope.  I just put a fixed 3x on my go-to rifle.  As long as you follow proper technique, it's not a crutch, it's a tool.  Once you have the fundamentals down, do what you need to do to be effective.

[Unbridled Liberty]

DS,

Don't give up on the irons just yet.  There is a proven method to get the front sight AND the target in focus at the same time.  It is worth a try.  See this thread:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=14010.0

Lots of good stuff there, but look specifically at Reply#2 and #4.  Good luck.

UL

[The Old Guide]

I qualified with a scope at my first shoot. I made up an LTR with Tech sights. I was shooting 195 to 205 and then remembered an old instructor I had over 40 years ago. Focus on the front sight. Keep your mind focused on keeping your front sight on the target. THEN squint. That makes the bottom row much sharper and your scores jump 20 points. Set up a Redcoat target or an AQT at home and practice squinting. It works.

[Mr Pete]

1)  Making too much of it.

Personal inventory time...Are your groups consistently 4MOA or less?

If not then work on the fundamentals.

If you are determined to get Rifleman with your irons then be truly determined.  You've set a great goal...and it might take some work to accomplish it.  By earning it on your terms you will always have that skill and confidence.  Who cares how long it takes, how many Appleseeds you go to or how much practice you need?

I'm willing to bet you are very good at a particular skill or trade.  I'm also willing to bet that your proficency was earned over years as opposed to the odd weekend of practice.  Channel your enthusiasm into drive and enjoy this journey.

When you get there (I've never met you but I do believe in you), you'll be better for it.

-Pete

I'm a noob. I spent several days over the past few months at the range getting familiar with my Mini 14. My Appleseed Shoot was last weekend. I clearly understand sight alignment and sight picture on my 14 with its Tech Sight rear sight and factory front blade. NPOA makes complete sense to me and even though it's not yet natural for me to settle in to NPOA, it will be by the time I attend my next AS. Practice makes perfect. That's my plan.

I topped out at 192 on the AQT. My rookie wife topped out at 202 with a M&P 15-22. I'm okay with her outshooting me, but I was pretty confident I'd shoot 210 on Sunday. Never got close. After a lot of reflection and introspection, I realized that I never saw much of the smaller targets. Focusing on the front sight makes everything at 25 yards a fuzzy blur. Thanks to LASIK a bunch of years ago, my vision is 20/20. Focusing on the target clears up the target, but makes the relationship between the sight and the target very vague.

I was determined to make Rifleman on iron sights. The advantage of a scope seems almost like gaming the rules. While I would still love to make Rifleman with my Mini 14 or M1A on iron sights, I don't think my eyes will cooperate. Darn expensive too, especially in .308. What do you guys think about scope Rifleman vs. iron sights Rifleman? Am I making too much out of it?

[DublinSeeders]

Yikes, so many great replies and nothing from me. Sorry for the delay, and definitely no offense taken. I suppose I need to go back and study the six steps and why I'm not understanding that blurry targets are okay in my sight picture. It's an understanding thing on my part; I've seen and read plenty of evidence to believe it without question. In fact, that's the point of Appleseed. We won the war aspect of the Revolution because of our marksmanship and that was with far less accurate rifles than we have today.

So back to the basics. I'd love to qualify with my Mini 14 or even my M1A, but it'll be a 10/22 next time around. And I think I will try something like a 4x Simmons at some point, but my goal is still to make Rifleman on iron sights and that's what I'll do. Thanks guys.

[technoronin]

I switched to using a scope from Tech Sights.  My vision was 20/35 in my right eye the last time I had an eye exam, so I'm just a bit too near sighted to be able to see some of the grey targets. 

I'm using a 3-9x40 scope set on 4x and it has made a huge difference.

[AFTERMATH]

Yikes, so many great replies and nothing from me. Sorry for the delay, and definitely no offense taken. I suppose I need to go back and study the six steps and why I'm not understanding that blurry targets are okay in my sight picture. It's an understanding thing on my part; I've seen and read plenty of evidence to believe it without question. In fact, that's the point of Appleseed. We won the war aspect of the Revolution because of our marksmanship and that was with far less accurate rifles than we have today.

So back to the basics. I'd love to qualify with my Mini 14 or even my M1A, but it'll be a 10/22 next time around. And I think I will try something like a 4x Simmons at some point, but my goal is still to make Rifleman on iron sights and that's what I'll do. Thanks guys.

Persistence is key...  With 192 being your high after your first weekend - You're already in one of the top tiers.  It takes most folks an average of three Appleseeds before they finally score 210.  192, you're right there and no one scores 192 if they can't hit the 400yd sillou's.  Even if you made all "5's" on the first three stages, that still means you picked up 42 points on stage four.
Most people hit a wall around 180-200; I call it AQT syndrome, as it's generally a mental thing. 
So, take a look at Step 4b. 
Remember, by the time you've found your NPOA and put it on target you've already lined up the sights and have your sight picture; if your position is solid, you can relax and no longer have to worry about this.  Therefor, you can now trust that your NPOA is on target and focus your eye on the front sight and your mind on keeping it there as you squeeze the trigger.  Follow through, call the shot.  If your FS moved off the target, when you called the shot, well first of all you failed on step 4b, but then you've got to think to yourself; "What caused that unwanted movement?"  Then fix it with the next shot.


A scope will make it easier, at least in a way, but I'm confident that if in your heart you wish to do it with irons; you can and will if you persist.  Try your 10/22 with tech-sights at your next shoot to save on centerfire ammo; score Rifleman, then break out your Mini and do it again.


I haven't had an eye exam in years - but the last time I went to renew my drivers license I barely passed the vision check.
It hasn't stopped me from shooting irons.


Note:  It's not the equipment that makes the Rifleman - it is the man behind the equipment.




Aftermath


P.S.  By the way, scoring as high as a 192 with a mini-14; just stuck it to the large percentage of the shooting world who thinks that those things don't shoot worth crap.  I never bought into it - and have seen time and time again that they can shoot as well as the shooter can.   One of these days I'm gonna pick one up as an LTR.

[wcmartin1]

You can do this!

If you're at 192 with irons, stay the course.

A scope may be an advantage in prone, but may also be a distraction due to increased wobble in standing and possibly even in sitting depending on the stability of your position.

You're almost there.  Follow the six steps, check your position, and focus on the front sight. 

However, if you truly can't see and need to switch to a scope there's no shame in it.  Try it for yourself and find your own truth.

Git-R-Done! 

[RangeRat]

Keep practicing and get a hard focus on the front sight as everyone's saying.  I've had LASIK, still wear glasses and patched using a scope; I've worked up to 240+ with scopes.  Picked up an M1A to work on irons and just couldn't get to the 4th stage worth a darn; terribly frustrating.  Built up an LTR (long barrel) with Tech Sites and with a new prescription can now shoot high 220's consistently.  Some days my eyesight's better than others but I now have confidence I can hit those fuzzy little targets!  I've had to play with the NPOA alignment on the fuzz to put the rounds where I want to but I'm happy now   

Front post size/shape and aperture diameter are important as are lighting and target contrast.  You can find a lot of info on these topics here and on the competitive shooting forums. 

Hang in there....

RR

[dronning]

Stick with the irons if you are at 192 you will be able to shoot >210.

I shot a Rifleman score (222) with a scope at my first Appleseed because I just couldn't use the stock Ruger sights.  Then I did some research got the TechSights with the aperture kit.  Based on what I read I used the smallest aperture I could that still gave me enough light.  This allowed me to focus on the front sight and the target was still a fuzzy blob but had a darker center.  When I went to my second Appleseed with the TechSights I shot Rifleman scores on all my AQT's with a high of 242.  I have goal of a 250 with 40V's.

You do not need to see the target clearly and if you do you will not score well because you are focused on the target not the front sight and most likely won't have sight alignment.  When you develop a solid repeatable shot process with good sight alignment, a good sight picture (even if fuzzy) and you have settled into your NPOA with good breath control, your subconcious will find the center of the fuzzy blob, every time.  All you have to do then is release the shot with good follow through. 

A great example of this took place at the last olympics where a South Korean archer that has only about 20% of his vision in one eye and 30% in the other set a world record in one of the early events.  He says all he really sees is a big fuzzy blob with different colored circles.

[DublinSeeders]

Thanks again for all the excellent feedback. Trying to put it all together I see two common themes. First, and I believe this at its core, it's the technique, not the sights. And second, it's the practice, not the equipment. I have ample opportunity to practice my NPOA indoors with a laser sight. Less so at the range with real rounds, but I'll find the time.

Picked up an M1A to work on irons and just couldn't get to the 4th stage worth a darn; terribly frustrating.  Built up an LTR (long barrel) with Tech Sites and with a new prescription can now shoot high 220's consistently.  Some days my eyesight's better than others but I now have confidence I can hit those fuzzy little targets!

I have an 10/22 LTR, but my daughter shot that. I have a M&P 15-22, but my wife shot that. That left me with my Mini 14, which is how I really wanted it to be. RangeRat, you change from an M1A (which I'd love to qualify with too!) to an LTR is compelling. I plan to have a third .22 by our next AS, although the 500 rounds of .223 still cost less than the LTR. I don't think it matters what I'm shooting, but Appleseed has invested a lot of faith in the LTR and I'm sure that's for good reason. I'm on the fence right now about what to shoot and practice with, a new 10/22 LTR or my Mini 14.

[hinermad]

I'm on the fence right now about what to shoot and practice with, a new 10/22 LTR or my Mini 14.

One of the reasons the LTR is recommended is because it's cheap to feed. 500 rounds of .223 may be the price of an LTR, but 500 rounds of .22 is a tenth of that.

To put it another way, for the price of 500 rounds of .223 ammo you can end up with 500 rounds' worth of experience. But for the same price plus about 10%, you'll end up with the same 500 rounds' worth of experience, plus another rifle. (grin)

Dave

[AZRedhawk44]

Rifleman is Rifleman, scope or irons doesn't matter.

I have a White Oak AR-15 for competitions... one of the nicest rifles out there you can buy.  Sports iron sights on top.

I also have a custom-built AR-15 with a 4-power ACOG on top of it.  Another fantastic rifle, with a fantastic scope.

The ACOG helps with target identification, but doesn't add any "accuracy."  I shoot the same size groups with the irons on the White Oak as I do with the scoped AR.

Keep at it, Dublin.  You're so close.

[kenjo]

Tech Sights has a replacement rear sight aperture that has a smaller diameter. This helps sharpen focus on the front sight. When I replaced the aperture on my 10/22 with the smaller diameter aperture my sight picture improved quite a bit; with the original rear sight sight diameter I could not get the front sight in focus but with the smaller diameter rear sight I could. It's an easy mod and inexpensive. Worth a try.

[DublinSeeders]

Thanks Kenjo. I think I know what you're talking about. They are urethane inserts in the accessories page at Tech-Sights.com, right? My Mini 14 and 10/22 LTR both have 200 series Tech Sights. I think I may buy a set of those inserts and give them a try.

[slim]

Appleseed has invested a lot of faith in the LTR and I'm sure that's for good reason. I'm on the fence right now about what to shoot and practice with, a new 10/22 LTR or my Mini 14.

When kids play little league their parents don't buy them a full size $185 ceramic TPS bat. They buy them a $10 Louisville Slugger in youth size. At that point in the kid's development both bats are exactly the same - worthless! The bat the kid uses makes no difference because they don't know how to swing yet. They haven't developed the technique necessary to make solid contact and hit home runs.

Too many people in the shooting world believe spending money on equipment enables them to shoot home runs. It doesn't. Developing fundamentals does.

The parents of that kid buy the Louisville Slugger for $10 and that $175 they saved goes toward things like a glove, cleats, uniform, pictures, the mandatory participation trophy all kids get now, and maybe some ice cream after the game.

Much in the same way, you can spend your extra money on ammo. Lots and lots and lots of ammo. Appleseed is so big on the Liberty Training Rifle concept because it works. It is the Louisville Slugger and the beauty of shooting is the bat you use does make a difference. But like little league, it doesn't really matter without solid fundamentals and if you use the big bat too early, you won't see a difference. You'll be swinging away and missing each pitch.

As the others have said, you're right there knocking on the Rifleman door already. You don't need no stinkin scopes! All you need to do is swing that Louisville Slugger a few more (thousand) times and you'll have your stroke developed to the point where you pick up that big ceramic bat (your Mini-14) and you swing it exactly like you swing that little wooden one.

You'll get there. Just keep practicing and practicing and practicing. Since you're doing dry fire at home, hang up an AQT and get used to how far you have to shift between each target. Once you've built that muscle memory, you won't even need your eyes anymore!

[DublinSeeders]

Words of wisdom. Thanks Slim. I've got an 8.x11 AQT staring at me on my office wall, but I'll bring a full size one and hang it on the footstool in our living room (my current target). And I both understand and believe your Louisville Slugger analogy. Fortunately I want to buy another 10/22 for a more adult-size LTR project. While the LTR does make a great training platform, I don't ever see myself selling it. Sort of like a lifetime of training.

Ironically, I saw my Mini 14 as the Louisville Slugger. My ceramic TPS bat is my M1A. I borrowed the M&P 15-22 my wife shot and was on the fence about borrowing an old Winchester 190. Glad I didn't though as the tube magazine would have been a pain. In hindsight I should have bought another Louisville Slugger 10/22 for Appleseed. It's a lifetime of fun. I'll get there. Thanks Slim.

[Sly223]

Iron sights vs. Scope,
They are just two different animals and should be treated as such.
As far as "Practice makes perfect"WRONG practice only makes permanent.
Only perfect practice makes perfect!

[funfaler]

For the cost of a decent scope mount, rings, and scope for your mini-14, or the cost of about 500 rounds of 223 ammo, you can purchase a Marlin 795 AND Tech-Sights for your Marlin 795.   (now add the cost of the scope/mount/rings and ammo  ) )

With this Marlin 795 LTR, you can hone your Rifleman skills, keep them honed, loan this LTR out to friends, and achieve the skills you need to achieve Rifleman.

All of this assumes you can't talk your wife into letting you use her 22 rifle for your practice time.   

[DublinSeeders]

I've never shot a Marlin 795, but I've shouldered several in gun shops. Very thin gun. The not-really-there weight is nice. Psychologically I've all but committed to another 10/22-based LTR for our next Appleseed. Almost signed on the line Wednesday for a Ruger model 1150. That said, I'd love to post 210 or better with my Mini 14 and M1A when the day comes.

[Sly223]

I agree that the 795 is too thin,very accurate and durable great for kids and slight frames.
But the worst struggle ensued when a body builder tried this at an event in Ft.Lauderdale,it somehow slipped out of his shoulder pocket and popped him right between the eyes and gave him scope eye ,Only there was not a scope mounted!

[LawDog]

The weight of the 795 can be improved by adding a "garden spike" (with the head cut off) in the forend.  You can epoxy it in and the right sized spike won't touch the barrel at all. 

[Stuart]

Boyd's gun stocks now makes very nice replacement wood laminate stocks for the 795.  You want what they call the "clip feed"  model,  which is precut for the magazine.   I have one on mine and it was a straight drop in.  It comes with studs already installed and the extra weight and width of the forearm helps. 

Adding a weight to your plastic stock is cheaper and works pretty well,  too,  but I thought I'd put another option out there in the event that doesn't satisfy you.

[Living Hand]

Lots of good advice on this thread.

One that jumps right out is to get your technique together, shoot some tight groups, and only move on from there.  If you're having trouble seeing the 400m silhouettes, you might try a different sighting system.  First - there's the thinner front post, mentioned by dragit.  Those can be especially beneficial if you shoot with a center hold (as do I).

Secondly - There's magnification.  You might shoot an AQT or two with a scope, to see if you improve over iron sights.  For whatever the reason, some people do.  If you then happen to shoot a 210 with magnification, you'll at least have that out of the way, for when you later shoot past it with irons.  Everyone shoots better after making rifleman.

Good luck.  Attend more Appleseeds, and you'll achieve that goal!