10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

[Junior Birdman]

  Come on FORTYSIX!!   

[Xeyed]

Here is a good reference doc for this thread.

A one page flyer with details to get someone started on building  an LTR.

This flyer has made the rounds since it was originally done over a year ago.  It's been posted on other threads and redone for the blog. It's time that it makes an appearance on the LTR thread.

The only update that I would make would be to recommend using the Uncle Mike's Swivel Stud 115 RGS Set with the wood screws with coarse threads. Rather than the 115B model recommended in the flyer. Using the 115 model with the machine screws for the front stud will loosen up and rip loose from a wooden stock during the course of an Appleseed. Unless you add a matching nut and some epoxy.

Gave me a good reason to convert to a Hogue overmolded stock after I muscled the stud loose form the factory wood stock. The Hogue offers longer LOP and better feel. But this is an individual preference and not an LTR requirement. I have not pulled out the studs from the Hogue yet.  YMMV.

[MCKNBRD]

  Come on FORTYSIX!!   

Nice shot, JB.  Dead center.  Good call on the wind.   

[Junior Birdman]

   Honest to Pete. If y'all are pulling studs out of stocks you MIGHT want to think about loosening up those slings! Slings should be snug. Snug will get the job done and won't pull out the studs! 

[Redchrome]

I finally made it through this whole thread! Eminently worthwhile, a lot of knowlege displayed here.

My thoughts on the matter:

Since I aim to teach other people, I am going to buy a 10/22 and perhaps a 795 as well. The tinkerer in me can't resist having a 10/22 to accessorize, but I learned to shoot with Marlin rifles, and I don't see why a 795 with good sights and a sling won't be a perfectly good trainer.

When I made rifleman, I did it with a rifle borrowed from a friend. A 10/22 with a laminated stock and a 4x Simmons scope. I always considered a sping-piston air rifle or single-shot .22 target rifle quite adequate for my practice needs, until I came to appleseed and found I needed a rapid-fire rifle... and I wasn't going to spend the pain in the wallet or shoulder to shoot my M1A 800 rounds.

• I stuck a Boyt 1907-style 1" leather sling on it, borrowed from one of my milsurps.
• I bought a fistful of clear Ruger rotary magazines. The clear bodies are worth every penny of the extra $5 because you can clearly see exactly what you have loaded.
• I found that really tightening down on the sling (attached to the barrel band), like I was used to doing with my M1A in Service Rifle matches, shifted POI notably.
• I had the stock 'flat' mag release, and in a lot of ways I liked it. Given the flush-fitting rotary magazines, I could put my hand right under the balance point of the rifle when shooting offhand; just like on my Garand. It slowed me down a little, but I didn't see that the lever-type ones were that much better (I did operate one during the ball & dummy exercise). This is practice for well-placed individual shots, not a speed-reloading game! I don't trust magazines to drop free, I always pull them out and manually control where they're going, even if it's "throw it anywhere but underfoot!"
• I bought a few different types of ammo. American Eagles would stovepipe about once every 10 rounds. Blazers misfired every now and then. Remington Vipers fed & fired better than I expected for the truncated cone bullet shape; but made a 'pattern' more than a group. Remington Thunderbolts fed & fired until the end of days -- Maybe 3-4 misfires out of ~1500 rounds, and they always went within about a bullet diameter of my call at the 20-yard backyard range.
• I spent several hundred rounds getting familiar with the rifle (and adjusting the scope position for my needs) before taking it to appleseed -- time well spent, even if I didn't know much about what to expect from an appleseed shoot other than having to change positions throughout the course of fire. I was still getting used to the trigger as I was going through the course of fire, but I kept getting better.
• I learned that scopes (especially without covers) suck in the rain.
• I learned that if you do have a scope, you should have a cleaning brush for it, in case it gets wet/dirty. Canned air works, but will run out.

Thoughts for the future:

• Adjustable stocks are great, not only for small shooters, but even for large shooters who heed Jeff Cooper's advice to scrunch down behind that rifle. The Knoxx Axxiom looks interesting.
• Pink guns may put certain shooters at ease (based on comments I've gotten from people I was teaching in other venues). Not to be sexist, but they were female. Don't force it on anyone; but it's nice to have a rifle with a pink stock as an option.
• My girlfriend likes purple... I may have to get one of those purple-stocked 10/22s.
• "Red ones go faster!" so I need a red stock on my 10/22.
• I want one of those shells that let you hang AR15 whizzbangs off your 10/22 so I can satisfy my urge to accessorize.
• How did I end up 'needing' 5+ 10/22s?
• I've not yet shot with a web sling; I'll have to try one and get used to it.
• What do y'all think of using a slip-on 'flash suppressor' to protect the muzzle when a n00b sticks it in the dirt?
• My gunsmith has a stack of NikkoSterling 4x scopes for $30/ea. He says they're pretty durable, and my experience with one is that they aren't great, but they are probably quite appropriate to put on a loaner gun that will get rained on and dropped in the dirt.

[dwarven1]

Since I aim to teach other people, I am going to buy a 10/22 and perhaps a 795 as well. The tinkerer in me can't resist having a 10/22 to accessorize, but I learned to shoot with Marlin rifles, and I don't see why a 795 with good sights and a sling won't be a perfectly good trainer.

Get whatever you want. The object is to have a magazine-fed, sling-equipped, peep- or scope-sighted .22 rifle so you can get in a lot of cheap practice. Just as long as it's RELIABLE.

I had the stock 'flat' mag release, and in a lot of ways I liked it. Given the flush-fitting rotary magazines, I could put my hand right under the balance point of the rifle when shooting offhand; just like on my Garand. It slowed me down a little, but I didn't see that the lever-type ones were that much better (I did operate one during the ball & dummy exercise). This is practice for well-placed individual shots, not a speed-reloading game! I don't trust magazines to drop free, I always pull them out and manually control where they're going, even if it's "throw it anywhere but underfoot!"

Trust me... a properly shaped mag will ALWAYS drop free from a Ruger. You may have to do a bit of trimming, but they do drop free.

I bought a few different types of ammo. American Eagles would stovepipe about once every 10 rounds.

I have come to the conclusion that Volquartsen Exact Edge Extractors are worth their weight in gold. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=363360 Given that they're $11.29, and the LTRs I've equipped with them have been to several shoots now with ZERO failures to extract, I will putting one in EVERY 10/22 I ever own.

I spent several hundred rounds getting familiar with the rifle (and adjusting the scope position for my needs) before taking it to appleseed

Oh, my G-d... I'm in love. I have given up counting how many people - including shooters who should know better!! - bring rifles to the shoots that are either still in the shrinkwrap, or have just been modified, or they've got brand new ammo or magazines for... Those are the shooters who get handed my LTRs. I have NO PATIENCE left for malfunctioning rifles - if the shooters are futzing around with their rifles, they AIN'T learning!! I wish I had more shooters with your attitude at my shoots!!!

[Earl]

I learned to shoot on single shot bolt action .22 target rifles in Junior High School, in the days they weren't worried about young people with guns under guidance. And although I see that 10/22 and other semi-automatic rifles will be nice, when worked on a bit as a loaner for an Appleseed -- I just don't have that kind of money for shooting one in my practice nor loaning out. I do, and am, going back to my single-shot target .22, and work on my refining techniques - since I can drop four bullets not fired in the second and third phase of the qualification and still make Rifleman with the 230 points left. And as I get the Rifleman's Cadence down, I may use all forty rounds and be very qualified.

Over all, it is still best to be very familiar with your rifle, positions and techniques for slings before you get to the range --- but many of the people coming to an Appleseed are there because they want to LEARN from experts, volunteers they may be but still experts. Those may not make Rifleman in their first Appleseed, but they will normally be back if encouraged properly. I will be looking for a 10/22 or other magazine fed semi-auto .22 to use, when the money rolls in or the prices are perfect, until then I encourage everyone to sharpen up with what they have.

[MCKNBRD]

Thoughts for the future:

• Adjustable stocks are great, not only for small shooters, but even for large shooters who heed Jeff Cooper's advice to scrunch down behind that rifle. The Knoxx Axxiom looks interesting.
• Pink guns may put certain shooters at ease (based on comments I've gotten from people I was teaching in other venues). Not to be sexist, but they were female. Don't force it on anyone; but it's nice to have a rifle with a pink stock as an option.
• My girlfriend likes purple... I may have to get one of those purple-stocked 10/22s.
• "Red ones go faster!" so I need a red stock on my 10/22.
• I want one of those shells that let you hang AR15 whizzbangs off your 10/22 so I can satisfy my urge to accessorize.
• How did I end up 'needing' 5+ 10/22s?
• I've not yet shot with a web sling; I'll have to try one and get used to it.
• What do y'all think of using a slip-on 'flash suppressor' to protect the muzzle when a n00b sticks it in the dirt?
• My gunsmith has a stack of NikkoSterling 4x scopes for $30/ea. He says they're pretty durable, and my experience with one is that they aren't great, but they are probably quite appropriate to put on a loaner gun that will get rained on and dropped in the dirt.

On a few points...
Adjustable stocks ARE great...but the purists want to see wood.  I have 2 LTRs that I take to the shoots with me; one is a 20" barreled action in a birch carbine stock, and the other is a standard carbine in a Tapco stock.  I have seen 11yo shooters fold up on that rifle and shoot well, and 2 hours later a 6'+ shooter does the same.  I modded mine to take an AR-style grip, which I sourced from CAA.  It has 3 panels for the front and rear and can be adapted to fit about any hand size.  The AR grip has one big advantage over the SAW grip that comes with the Tapco:  it has a longer 'reach' (its not really LOP, but its the same idea) than the SAW, which is right up against the rear of the trigger guard.  Issues include sling mounting and 'ease of service' if you have to take it apart on the day of the shoot (only an issue if you use the upper composite 'rail').  Bottom line?  I love it.

10/22s are the VW beetle of the shooting world.  They inspire tinkering, and you can get respectable performance out of one relatively cheaply, if you so desire.  I've got 6 now, but I've owned 12 or 13 total.  Be warned: they are a disease that will consume you if you let it. 

Obtain, learn, and embrace the loop sling.  Web slings are good for hanging a rifle off your shoulder, and thats about it.

All of my LTRs (that I've built for others, or are my loaners) have a flash suppressor on them for the very reason you mentioned.  Lord knows that the flash on the 10/22 isn't ALL that bad...  

I dislike optics on an LTR...for the same reason you wouldn't want an automatic on a 1966 Beetle.  If you're planning on having several loaners, maybe have ONE of them with it, but I wouldn't spend the $$$ on glass.  Too many shooters 'fuss the shot'.  Ask me how I know.

Byrdman

[Redchrome]

10/22s are the VW beetle of the shooting world.  They inspire tinkering, and you can get respectable performance out of one relatively cheaply, if you so desire.  I've got 6 now, but I've owned 12 or 13 total.  Be warned: they are a disease that will consume you if you let it. 

I've resisted getting one for many years, because they were just so ordinary.. everyone has one, and not necessarily because they were good (they aren't), but simply because they were popular. I'm one to buck trends, especially if I see a superior solution. I liked Marlins much better than 10/22s.

Obtain, learn, and embrace the loop sling.  Web slings are good for hanging a rifle off your shoulder, and thats about it.

When I said 'web sling' I meant the web sling used as a looped sling as opposed to the leather 1907-style looped sling I'm used to shooting. I've seen competitors at Service Rifle matches who are Masters at Camp Perry using the looped web sling, so that showed me there was some merit to it, even before I went to an Appleseed and saw some demonstrations of how to use it.

I dislike optics on an LTR...for the same reason you wouldn't want an automatic on a 1966 Beetle.  If you're planning on having several loaners, maybe have ONE of them with it, but I wouldn't spend the $$$ on glass.  Too many shooters 'fuss the shot'.  Ask me how I know.

Yeah, fussing the shot can be an issue for new shooters. The radical eye relief changes of different positions can be another. I'm not accustomed to shooting with a scope, and the fiddling I did getting that scoped rifle ready for Appleseed taught me what a poor notion they are for the kind of conditions to be encountered on the Appleseed range.

[Rhodes]

Normally I wouldn't say much about this but given ammo is trending back towards sane levels if not good Ive started trying out a few different brands in the Ruger and Marlin. I was literally shocked in the improvement the Wolf Target ammo was giving me in both rifles. My groups were almost half the size of the Subsonic I had been using. If this had been 17.00 a box match ammo sure but at 4.50 a box it might not pay to burn it up at the range but for a AS yes! Now be warned its still a bit hard to find and may not do as well in yours due to the inconsistency in 22 barrels but may be worth grabbing a box to try out at the range.

Now if I can convince my wife to get me a couple of thousand Silver Bear for the 308 for Christmas.....

[gjwilliamsjr]

Now if I can convince my wife to get me a couple of thousand Silver Bear for the 308 for Christmas.....

Christmas in July??  That's too far ahead for me to comprehend.  Although now that I think about it...hmmm

[BillSWPA]

I really like the idea of a 10-22 set up as described in this thread, and am considering purchasing one to set up in this manner.  Can anyone answer the following?

1)  Can anyone quantify the difference (if any) in accuracy that can be expected between a Ruger standard barrel, a Ruger bull barrel, and an aftermarket bull barrel?

2)  If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?

3)  Is it possible to buy just the action, without the stock and barrel, if I intend to use aftermarket components?

4)  If you are using a bull barrel with the tech sight adapter, does this create any cleaning issues?

Thanks in advance for any information.

[yellowhousejake]

I really like the idea of a 10-22 set up as described in this thread, and am considering purchasing one to set up in this manner.  Can anyone answer the following?

1)  Can anyone quantify the difference (if any) in accuracy that can be expected between a Ruger standard barrel, a Ruger bull barrel, and an aftermarket bull barrel?

2)  If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?

1 and 2 I can comment on,

The only add ons I think are really needed are a good mag release and good sights. I am biased and I have become a bit of a firearms luddite, I have given away enough rifle/pistol/revolver "upgrades" to buy several 10/22s over the last 30 years. Take the cash a new barrel costs and change it to quarters, then take a quarter every time you dry fire for 15 minutes a day. In six months you will be a better marksman and have 20 pounds of quarters to boot.

I can tell you that I have shot rifleman with a 1980s vintage 10/22 that has led a long and hard life. With the right ammo it will 5 put rounds in one ragged hole at 25 yards. With any ammo it will shoot 4 MOA at that distance and get you a rifleman patch, **if you do your part**.

A hand lapped air gauged cryogenic stress relieved spiral fluted barrel made from unobtainium will not get you a rifleman patch if you cannot shoot it well.

DAve

[eaglescouter]

4)  If you are using a bull barrel with the tech sight adapter, does this create any cleaning issues?

None.  But affixing the adapter to the .920 barrel requires locktite and I suggest it should also involve a pair of levels.  One on the front dovetail, 2nd on the bottom of the magwell.  Ensure that the two are in alignment for best results.

[/quote]

2)  If the aftermarket bull barrel is worth getting, which ones do you recommend?

3)  Is it possible to buy just the action, without the stock and barrel, if I intend to use aftermarket components?

2.  Most are unavailable today.  I was able to acquire a Green Mountain which is a good compromise between price and availability.

3.  Ruger does not sell receivers as a standalone product.  Other companies however, do.  Nodac Spud and several others.

General information on modifying or accurizing the Ruger 10/22:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9

Specific discussions about barrels:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

[Xeyed]

Bill,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interest in the Appleseed Project. As you just signed up and this is your first post, I'm going to make some assumptions in my response.

My first assumption is that you have not yet attended an Appleseed event. When you do you will discover that there will be many different types of rifles on the firing line. While the recent increases in ammo have certainly increased the popularity of the rimfire rifles, there is no one correct answer for what is the best rifle.

The standard of Appleseed Marksmanship training is to teach people the skills needed to put 9 out of 10 shots in a one inch square at 25 yards.   It may surprise you to learn that a stock Ruger 10/22 is capable of that performance. The addition of a GI Web sling, Tech sights and Extended Mag Release are only additions really recommended to improve the stock 10/22. The proper use of the Sling will tighten up your groups by improving your ability to keep the front sight on the target. The Tech Sights will provide improved and finer sight adjustments that will be helpful as your skills improve. And the extended Mag release will save fumbling on the courses of fire that require a magazine change.

While you certainly can you improve a 10/22 with bull barrels and other custom components, it's not required. The biggest improvement is a Rifle's accuracy comes from upgrading the skills of the shooter. And thats what the Appleseed events are designed to do.

One of the things that you will learn as you hang around Appleseed long enough is that it is not a hardware race. When you attend your first Appleseed, there will probably everything from Military Surplus Enfields, Mosin Nagants and Garands to Fals, M1A's and various Evil Black Rifles.

And in between all of them will be a teenager with a 10/22 LTR that will be out shooting all of them. And next to him/her will be someone shooting a Russian Mosin Nagant which is hardly a refined rifle. You would be better served by building the basic LTR as outlined in this thread and attending an Appleseed. Take the money you  saved and buy some ammo and range time.

There is always time to  build the "Ultimate Rifle" later, it's just not needed to attend an Appleseed.

I know that this response so far has not directly answer your question, but I can recommend the folks over at Rimfire Central as a great resource for your technical questions http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php on anything 10/22 related.

Back to your question, the Bull Barrels are more popular in bench rest shooting where the weight is not a factor. Bull Barrels will have a tighter chamber designed for Match Ammo. Combined this will be more accurate than the stock barrel and bulk ammo, but you won't be able to shot higher Velocity Ammo like CCI Stingers. You can spend more than the purchase price of a base 10/22 on an aftermarket barrel. Green Mountain seems to be a popular choice. Volquartsen makes a CNC Milled Aluminum Receiver but they not inexpensive either. I can't speak to last question about Tech Sight cleaning issues on a bull receiver as all mine are mounted on factory standard barrels.

Doing some quick math, by the time you build a custom 10/22 with aftermarket parts, you would have spent enough to buy an M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. http://www.thecmp.org/eligibility.htm

And completing an Appleseed event counts as a "Marksmanship or other Firearms Related Activity" for the purpose of qualification. And the RWVA is a CMP affiliated  organization.

Good luck with your decision and again Welcome.

[BillSWPA]

Thanks for the replies.

I almost did attend the Appleseed event at Beaver Valley Rifle & Pistol Club, where I am a member, but unfortunately a schedule conflict prevented my attending.  I am likely to attend the next one that is offered at my range.

I am a fan of the "Evil Black Rifle," and mine is now equipped with a USGI sling purchased from this site.  Looking at the cost of ammo, it is clear that practice with a rimfire will have to be a priority, and that, if selected properly, it will pay for itself rather quickly in ammo savings.  I currently own a Mossberg 144 bolt action that is equipped with peep sights, but even with a post rather than an aperture in front, it doesn't really duplicate the AR sight picture.

Some quick internet searching has revealed 10-22 variants costing upwards of $1,000, which would certainly defeat the purpose of cost savings.  My goal is to have something that duplicates the AR sight picture, is accurate enough so that any misses are my fault rather than the gun's fault, and does not cost more than I need to spend to achieve this purpose.

Based on the responses received so far it looks like the standard barrel may be the way to go.  It appears from prior posts that many of you like bull barrels, but I did see one complaint about reliability issues from tight chambers.  Also, many of these bull barrels appear to be .92 inch in diameter, while my Mossberg - an absolute tack driver - has only a .75 inch diameter barrel.  Considering other purposes for which I might use the rifle, for example, teaching my family and the occasional friend how to shoot, I'd like to keep the weight within that which would be comfortable for a beginner.

I totally agree with the comments about skill being more important than hardware.  However, I have found that the right hardware is helpful in developing the right skills.

If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?

[yellowhousejake]

Thanks for the replies.

If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?

I would wait and put a brink or two through it first. My 10/22 and the 10/22 of a good friend both shot the same with or without the barrel band. However, once I fixed the extreme slop in the action/stock the barrel was just high enough to have pressure exerted by the band and now my rifle shoots better without the band installed. Your mileage may vary.

Try it and see. If like me you like the look of the band installed (and a bit of support should a new shooter drop the rifle) it can be relived so it does not apply pressure to the barrel.

DAve

[Redchrome]

I totally agree with the comments about skill being more important than hardware.  However, I have found that the right hardware is helpful in developing the right skills.

If I select the standard barrel, do you recommend I do anything with the barrel band and/or the bedding of the barrel in the stock?

Indeed, not having to fight the hardware will make it a lot easier to learn. This is why good sights and a good trigger and a good sling are really important.
However, accuracy isn't really a problem at 25m. Shootability still is. Bull barrels do not make the gun more 'shootable'.

This thread has covered the issue of barrel bands at some length. My synopsis is:

• If you can put on a sling swivel screwed into the stock itself, don't use the barrelband sling swivel; it'll affect POI depending on how hard you pull on it.
• Once you've alleviated that tension, determining whether the rifle shoots better with or without the band is something you'll have to experiment with.
• If you're worrying about bedding the barrel, you're worrying too much. Just make sure your stock screw is tight.

I made rifleman with a borrowed 10/22 with the sling on the barrelband, stock trigger, stock mag release, and stock bolt release. The only accuracy improvements were a 4x Simmons scope and a 1" leather 1907-style sling I borrowed off another rifle I had.

My advice is to go buy the 10/22 and at least 5 (clear-bodied, rotary) magazines for it. Go shoot at an Appleseed, then figure out what improvements you might like to have. You don't need them, it just makes things less aggravating.

I would suggest a patch of skateboard tape on the butt. Otherwise the slick plastic buttplate tends to slide around.

[EZ3]

Bill, there is an Applseed at Slippery Rock the 15th and 16th.  Take the Mossberg.  One of the students that qualified at BVRPC was shooting a model 44US from the CMP.  Then build your LTR. 

[MCKNBRD]

I've built several 10/22 LTRs; 2 that I have now as loaners, and many that were done for others.  As far as that goes, I've built a few 'ultimates', too.  Bottom line up front: you don't need anything more than a basic 10/22, decent sights (Tech-Sights or something similar), a few extra magazines, and a loop sling. 

Having said that...

The 10/22 is kind of a habit for me.  I've got my LTRs, but I have a 'squirrel gun' that is a tackdriver.  It has a VQ THM Tension barrel, VQ cantilever scope mount, Bushnell 3-9x40 scope, bolt buffer, Hogue stock, and GI Loop sling, as far as parts I've bought for it.  I radiused the bolt, worked the trigger/hammer for a better pull and crisper break, did the !bolt release mod, and sharpened the extractor on it.  What can it do?  Anything I want it to...I hit a rat in the eye at 93yds a couple of years ago; its better than I am.  That being the case, its a finicky little devil, and I have to feed it a VERY specific diet, and its VERY hard to clear the chamber if you load a live cartridge and have to extract it.  TIGHT little chamber that Tom has on his barrels...

Having said all that, my AQT score went UP when I used my 20" barreled LTR with Tech-Sights.  Since I've been building them, I've had several of my LTRs (my loaners AND ones I've done for others) make riflemen out of their shooters.  They're reliable, repeatable, and damn durable little pieces. 

The basic 10/22 is by and far capable of making the 4moa 'cut', but there are many things to do to make them more 'shooter friendly'.  Cleaning up the trigger is a bone of contention, as most folks think 'match trigger' when any work is done.  I usually just clean the trigger up and make it break more consistently.  Other things I do include clean up the flashing or rough edges from the die cut parts, !bolt release mod, install extended mag release if it didn't have one (New ones from Ruger DO have them), install sling swivels and sling (into the wood, not the barrel band!), put a pressure pad under where the barrel band clamps (Keeps the pressure more consistent, and maintains the 'stock' look), and add a flash suppresor.  No, its not because of the blinding flash and resulting flashburns from the .22LR; the muzzle usually ends up in the dirt or banging off the concrete more than once during an Appleseed (especially if its a loaner, right Instructors?) and the FH is a stylish way to protect it while also keeping the Tech-Sights from coming off if they loosen (which I've never seen happen on mine, FWIW).

Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.

Byrdman

[yellowhousejake]

Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.

Byrdman

Nice rifle!

Just the parts that matter changed. I like it. What FH is that you have installed? I have considered one for my own LTR after seeing a line from the Orange Hats perspective. Also, how on earth do you see through the Tech Sights with out a raised comb? I know some can do it but I can not see through anything higher than a Williams sight without a raised comb. I got small head, or nerdy cheek bones, can't say which.

DAve

[MCKNBRD]

Check out my post in the 'deals and steals' section to see what they look like when I'm done.

Byrdman

Nice rifle!

Just the parts that matter changed. I like it. What FH is that you have installed? I have considered one for my own LTR after seeing a line from the Orange Hats perspective.

Its from Masen, I think.  I've got one of the long ones, too, but its on a 16" barrel sitting in a Tapco stock.  Quite possibly the 'ultimate' LTR, as just about everything on it is adjustable; LOP, Grip sizes (I have a CAA grip on it), and the angled tube makes it work well with irons.

Also, how on earth do you see through the Tech Sights with out a raised comb? I know some can do it but I can not see through anything higher than a Williams sight without a raised comb. I got small head, or nerdy cheek bones, can't say which.

DAve

Well, after I attended an Appleseed and realized the IMPORTANCE of a good cheek weld, I saw a plastic surgeon and had my cheekbone on my right side relieved so it would allow a better cheek weld on a larger number of rifles.          

OK, not really.  They work fine for me, but it forces my head down a little, and encourages a GOOD turkey neck to be consistent.  If you need to, don't be afraid to get a couple of pieces of leather and fabricate your own cheek riser.

Byrdman

[yellowhousejake]

OK, not really.  They work fine for me, but it forces my head down a little, and encourages a GOOD turkey neck to be consistent.  If you need to, don't be afraid to get a couple of pieces of leather and fabricate your own cheek riser.

Byrdman

I used a product called "Vet Wrap". I now have a roll in my IITbag along with some noodle foam. Vet Wrap is a self adhesive elastic wrap. Think Ace Bandage without the steel hooks. I also comes in colors, mine is Florescent Purple and my wife thinks is looks "cool".

A piece of foam, a couple quick wraps of Vet Wrap, and you have a raised comb without hooks, it isn't slick like duct tape, no sticky adhesive, and it feels better on the face. You can get it at farm stores like Tractor Supply, $2.50 buys enough to do three LTRs easily. A good item for IITs to keep around.

DAve

[Panama]

You don't need a special 10/22 to make rifleman. After just missing using a 5 shot, bolt action 223 rifle, shot 206 with 4 rounds left from running out of time, I bought an off the rack basic 10/22 and installed a Bushnell scope on it. I shot a 221 in the first AQT I shot with it.

The biggest change made to my 10/22 I made on the line. The length of pull was too short for me, so I took some cardboard and some of the tape that was mentioned in an earlier post, and extended the butt of my stock. I do recommend buying sling swivel mounts that screw into the stock for your sling. I bought a set at Cabellas for less than $5.

If you do it right, you can get a rifle, install the sights and sling mounts and buy magazines for less than $400. Along with good sessions dry firing while practicing your fundamentals, this is all you need to make rifleman.

[Earl]

I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.

[gunville]

I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.

I recommend you research the remmy semi before you buy one.

10/22's and especially Marlin 795's are affordable and proven.

[MCKNBRD]

I will have to look deeper into getting a semi-auto .22 rifle, Remington has a very nice one, but a bit costly. Will have to look at them harder, after paying the bills.

To be honest, this is the easiest way to get some range time with a 10/22 LTR.  How?  Your 597 will puke the extractor halfway through an Appleseed and you'll have a prepared Orange or Red Hat hand you a loaner LTR to finish the course of fire.

I have yet to see a 597 make it through a Saturday without some kind of problem.  They can't all be maintenance related...

On the other hand, every 10/22 problem I've seen has been maintenance related: ie, they haven't cleaned it since Dad got it in 1974 and handed it over to them 13 years ago.

If you get a chance to get a 597 for around $75, I'd consider it.  On the other hand, if you want something reliable, pick up a 10/22 and do the LTR stuff to it.

Byrdman

[VAshooter]

There are lots of changes that can be made to a Ruger 10/22. Some like "Tech Sites" are pretty standard within the Appleseed community.

There are times when as you make changes to your rifle you need to stop and think about what you are doing. Case in point: A gentleman wants to build a 10/22 for his son. He finds a pistol conversion with a 10 inch barrel, he mounts a nice scope, and it turns out to be very accurate. Of course, you don't use pistols at Appleseeds so he buys an after market AR15 type collapsible stock and he has the perfect rifle for his son to shoot at an Appleseed. It's light compact and accurate. IT"S ALSO ILLEGAL. This is what BATF calls an SBR (short barreled rifle) or Title Three weapon and it can only be assembled after sending a Form 1  with two hundred dollars, a fingerprint card and an NAC backround check to BATF and receiving a Form 4 with attached tax stamp in return.

This is a major felony and can get you in all sorts of trouble. I found this rifle on the line at an Appleseed and asked the owner if I could see the Form 4. He didn't know what I was talking about and defended his actions by saying all the parts were for sale in box stores so it couldn't be illegal. I explained what a short barreled rifle was and made him take it off the line. I recommended he disassemble it, take the barrel off and either get rid of the stock or the barrel. Or else find a class three dealer to help him file the Form 1 and apply for a tax stamp.

Please be careful. We don't want anyone to get in trouble.

VAShooter

[MCKNBRD]

WOW.  VA Shooter makes a GREAT point, especially now that Ruger muddied the waters with the Chargers.  Technically speaking, you CAN put a longer barrel (at least 16" to be legal) on a Charger receiver and mount it in a rifle stock and it be legal...however, technically, that Charger receiver can no longer have a pistol stock or pistol barrel re-attached, or it becomes an SBR and is subject to all the above NFA stuff VA Shooter mentioned.

Fortunately, most Instructors have loaner LTRs, right?  It would be an easy transition for the young shooter if someone had a loaner 10/22 for him to use.  All it would take would be for someone 'in the know' about SBRs or suppressors to see one of these '10/22s' on the line, being used by an unsuspecting shooter (and implicitly OK'd by the IITs, Red Hats, Green Hats, et al.), and report it for us to be in a HEAP of trouble.

Which begs the question...how do we handle Class III stuff on the line?  What if someone shows up with a rifle with a short barrel on it, even if he has the Form 4?  Suppressors?  I haven't seen it happen, but its bound to, eventually.  What is the (probably soon to be written up) Appleseed policy on it?

Ugh.  Hadn't even thought of that situation...

Byrdman

[VAshooter]

If the man had shown me a Form 4 for that SBR I would have permitted it on the line and remarked about what a neat idea it was.

VAShooter