10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

[deolexrex]

Basspro shops have the 10/22 on sale one day only August 19th for an astounding $139.88!!!!

Can someone post a link to this information?

[BBA]

OK, I picked up my 10/22 the other day.  Looking at the OP recommendations for modifications I have a couple of questions. 

1) Which model of the Tech-Sights should I go for (when they are back in stock), the TSR100 or the TSR200?  Is the additional elevation adjustment at the rear sight needed/useful?

2) Where is a good place to get a US GI sling?  I assume Fred's store?

3) What brands of automatic bolt release do you guys recommend?  From the OP it doesn't seem like CST is recommended due to modified magazine requirement.  I have seen a couple of other brands from searching, but any recommendations?

4) Is the Bell and Carlson extended mag release the way to go or are there other brands recommended?

Thanks.

[Grin Reaper]

They ought to be in stock by now -- our 1st group but was shipped a few weeks ago.
The elevation-adjustable rear sight is nice, esp if youplan on shooting at ranges other than 25m.  For 25m-only, the front sight gives enough elev. adjustment, IMHO.

Nickle, any thoughts on bolt releases.  I think you've 'done-up' more of these than anyone.

[ken grant]

 On my first 10/22, I used the 200. Elevation hard to adjust. Front sight easier.
Stick with same ammo and in most cases, you do not have to change elevation.
On my second, I used the 100 and happy with it.

Sling, Fred may be out(he was at one time,nylon I mean, Fred may still have cotton slings )CDNN has brand new cotton web slings for $6.99. Just got two of them.

CST--- I bought one and had all kinds of problems. Removed and put in junk box along with their Mod. Mags.
All other Auto-Bolt Releases work great but in just a few minutes you can rework your own to work just as well( check several 10/22 forums for a How-To)

I assume you mean an extended mag release for #4. I have a Volquartsen($13.00 )and an Eagle ($3.99 at CDNN). Both work great. Again in a few minutes you can drill your own and put a stud in it. Either glued or screwed.( Also How-To several places)

[Nickle]

I alter the original bolt release myself, using a Dremel tool. Don't even think of getting a auto bolt hold open. They require modified magazines. The auto release doesn't, and is highly recommended. Extended mag releases are nice.

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30867

That's where I got my info. Of course, you could buy one already done. Midway has them.

If Fred doesn't have slings available, Midway has them. Fred's should be cheaper, if he has any.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=174603 http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813

Tech-Sights website says they'll be out until the end of the month.

[Old Dog]

My 10/22 shoots Remington Golden Bullets to the same POA/POI from 25 to 100 yds., no sight adjustment required once it was sighted in at 25 yds.  Try yours with 2 or 3 different types of ammo (to see what it shoots best for the money) and you may see the same thing. 

I bought the cheap little Eagle 10 rnd magazines and the magazine release on those feels pretty natural.  It is sliding piece on the back of the magazine.  You grab the magazine with your trigger hand, use your thumb to push the sliding piece up, it activated the magazine release on the rifle and you pull the magazine out.  Feels a lot like the M1A.  Buy a couple.  If you like them buy some for back up (some folks say they are pretty cheap and won't last too long, they are plastic but so are some pretty vital parts of your AR15 - if you own one of those).

[Grin Reaper]

My mileage varied re: Eagle mags.
One stopped feeding less than 200rds into its life; the other stopped locking in place reliably.

Steel Lips mags, on the other hand, have not given me any problems, and have about the same shape/size as the Eagles.

[Nickle]

I've heard so many bad things about aftermarket 10/22 mags that, for the time being, I'm sticking with Ruger mags.

[BBA]

on the mags, are the higher capacity mags (25-30 round) recommended/useful or are 10 rounders sufficient for appleseed drills?  How many mags should one plan to have?

Anybody that has used the high capacity mags, does the length of the mag cause any issues in various positions/situations?

[Grin Reaper]

The higher-than-10-rd mags are really only useful (IMHO) on the QDAQT when it is shot 'straight though' [as opposed to in stages], as there are fewer mag changes needed.
I have one Butler Creek 25rd mag, which has worked just fine so far, but it tends to dig into one's forearm when prone much as a 30rd AR15 mag does.

[Old Dog]

Must be a "short arm" issue.  No pun intended.  I've got all 10 rnd. magazines for one reason - those are the cheapest ones to buy that will get you through a stage.  It the Eagles don't last I'm "out" about $5 or $6 each for them and I'll try something else.

[raf]

on the mags, are the higher capacity mags (25-30 round) recommended/useful or are 10 rounders sufficient for appleseed drills?  How many mags should one plan to have?

Anybody that has used the high capacity mags, does the length of the mag cause any issues in various positions/situations?

If one moves the supporting arm far forward (as is best), the 25 rd BC mags pose no problem.  If you have medium or short arms, then switch to Ruger 10 or 5 rd mags clipped together at their bottoms with a little gizmo from E&L manufacturing.  Just be careful about inadvertantly getting dirt/debris in the bottom mag, whose open end is always down.

I have found it useful to count my shots and have a spare mag handy whose capacity equals the number of shots in the stage you are shooting.  If there's a malf, dump old mag, insert new one, and continue shooting until the shot limit is reached.  I have done it during an Appleseed, so you can as well.  If you practice a bit before attending an Appleseed, you will not have quite as much to absorb, and counting shots will not be too much of a burden.

[ax238]

Pardon my direction change......

I just read in the September Guns and Ammo magazine an article about how subsonic is not subject to the heat and sounds changes of standard velocity .22LR ammo.  They write ( and show a list of group sizes per brand) about the results and characteristics of the ammo compared to the standard velocity.  Anyone have any experience with this?  I plan on purchasing some just to run the paces and see.

??

Ax

[Nickle]

Check rimfirecentral.com on the subject.

There is a loss of accuracy when the bullet transitions from supersonic to subsonic.

If it starts out subsonic, or stays supersonic to the target, there is no issue.

I think you'll find standard 22 ammo stays supersonic to 25 meters, but, that's just an assumption, and needs to be checked.

Oh, please delete your thread in the General Discussion area, and start a new one on the subject in th Reloading area. I'll try to sticky it for you.

It is a very good thought, and needs to be sticky'd and discussed.

[Oohrah]

I'm not sure they are worth the added cost and are so close to standard

[Scout]

Hey Nickle, Can you reccomend an inexpensive scope for the 10/22? Tech sights don't have any sights available and I want to bring a 10/22 to BC with me to shoot as a secondary rifle. I have a bull barrel on it and was looking at some scopes, but I honestly have never bought glass for any rifles I have owned. I have always used iron. Thanks!! 

[Nickle]

Well, I may have a deal for you.

First I'll recommend using a full sized scope, for a centerfire rifle. .22 scopes just SUCK.

Specifically I recommend an older steel tube Weaver scope. Any good or fairly good rifle scope should work.

Do you already have the scope mount, the wide one for standard Weaver rings? They come with new 10/22's.

Reason I ask is I may have a V8 Weaver you can borrow, and I can send it down with Fred, if he doesn't mind doing so.

Or, I can loan you a set of Tech Sights, also brought down by Fred.

Your choice.

[Scout]

I will take the scope offer. I am going to get tech sights but I have a bull barrel coming and from their mounting info on it, I have to put it on with lock-tight and don't want to mess up yours. I plan on shooting centerfire while at BC, but I need a rifle for my female RBC attendee that is coming to the Davilla RBC. So I want to make sure it is set up right and I can get her squared away on it.

Now ,if you have some extra tech sights, the regular ones for the regular 10/22 just setting around, I will buy them from you for another 10/22 I am getting ready as a loaner for the appleseed here. I am trying to have seven or eight loaner rifles for the appleseed here in Nov. But they are all different rifles. Enfields, SKSs, etc.

[Nickle]

I will take the scope offer. I am going to get tech sights but I have a bull barrel coming and from their mounting info on it, I have to put it on with lock-tight and don't want to mess up yours. I plan on shooting centerfire while at BC, but I need a rifle for my female RBC attendee that is coming to the Davilla RBC. So I want to make sure it is set up right and I can get her squared away on it.

Now ,if you have some extra tech sights, the regular ones for the regular 10/22 just setting around, I will buy them from you for another 10/22 I am getting ready as a loaner for the appleseed here. I am trying to have seven or eight loaner rifles for the appleseed here in Nov. But they are all different rifles. Enfields, SKSs, etc.

Scope it is, rings are on it. Do you have a base as well?

I don't have enough Tech Sight sets now, short 2 sets as it is, and those rifles are currently wearing scopes, as the original sights are just horrible.

You can send it back up after you get the Tech Sights, just as long as I have it back by 1 October or so, as I'll want it for the 20-21 Oct Jericho Appleseed (if the young Sergeant shooting my M14 has eyesight issues, which is likely).

[Muddogg]

Well, I may have a deal for you.

First I'll recommend using a full sized scope, for a centerfire rifle. .22 scopes just SUCK.

Specifically I recommend an older steel tube Weaver scope. Any good or fairly good rifle scope should work.

Do you already have the scope mount, the wide one for standard Weaver rings? They come with new 10/22's.

Reason I ask is I may have a V8 Weaver you can borrow, and I can send it down with Fred, if he doesn't mind doing so.

Or, I can loan you a set of Tech Sights, also brought down by Fred.

Your choice.

I have personally heard that centerfire rifle scopes wear out faster if they are put on .22s. I can't personally say this is true, but the guy I talked to is quite an experienced gunsmith and shooter, and I trust his opinion on glass. I don't think that it would wear out during a week at RBC, but maybe a back-up wouldn't hurt since you'll be doing a lot of shooting.

[Old Dog]

I put an old steel tube 4 power weaver on my 10/22 last year.  That scope was on several 30.06's over the years (semi and bolt action) with no problems.  After a few range sessions on my 10/22 the horizontal cross hair decided to separate about midways of the scope and curl downward.  Just for info.

[Nickle]

Well, there may be some truth to that, but, I'd wager it is a case of cause and effect.

Most .22's get treated pretty poorly, and then there's the fact that the favored rifle of most teens is a .22, and we KNOW how they treat stuff. Plus, most centerfire scopes put on .22's are pretty crappy.

Seriously, if you put good quality optics on a .22, you won't go wrong. THat's why mine that are scoped are qwearing a Simmons (donated on the rifle) and a V8 Weaver. I'm probably putting a T6 Weaver on another for a little while, until I get some Tech Sights in.

That V8 Weaver is at least 40 years old, an old steel tubed antique, one of the early variables. It has EXTERNAL adjustments, in the rear ring. But, it works. The T6 is probably 30 years old. You just can't kill an old Weaver, short of actual abuse. Well, maybe M1A4ME has a legit failure.

[Grin Reaper]

I found some great data from a group that holds 300 yard shooting competitions for .22 shooters.
You read that right -- .22's at 300 yards.

A few hints to get ready

1.        If you can sight your rifle in at 35 yards to shoot 13.5 inches high you will be close at 300 yards.

2.        If you can not adjust to 18 inches high a 30 thousands shim under the rear scope ring will do it. 
Burris signature rings set with 0.015 down front and 0.015 up back is an elegant way to do this.

3.        Hyper velocity stuff knocks down even the hard set targets.

4.        Many people think a 22 cannot be shot accurately at 300 yards.  This is horse feathers we have
run 7 or 8 straight a number of times.  Plan to learn a little about wind, have a good time, and knock over
a few Buffs

from http://www.oscinc.org/Buffalo_runners.html

[Scout]

I just bought a Tactical solutions matt green fluted bull barrel form a company in Kentucky. I told him we might want some more of them and he agreed to discount a group buy. So, if sometime in the future some guys want to get some of these just sing out. Mine was $179.00 with no shipping charge. I looked around a bit and it seemed to be a good price.

[Oohrah]

Hey Muddog,   Not true of 22s being hard on those designed for center fire.
Probably got started when some scopes did not hold up when used on air
rifles due to a differing type of shock when fired.   With the exception of some
very old Weaver B scopes, almost all my serious 22s wear the standard type
1" glass from cheap, to costing more than the rifle.   Many of the Weaver Bs
and those designed for 22s have the paralex adjustment for 50 to 75 yards,
whereas the 1" average scope for center fire is 100 yards.   With an AO,
you can do your own tuning, but honestly have not noticed a big difference
with modern scopes that could mess ya up.   With the same cheek meld on
the stock is would make it a moot point anyhow.   Most, even the cheaper ones
are are of a better quality of years ago.   I suffered one cross hair breakage
with an inexpensive Bushnel on a Win. Md 100, 308, and a wandering point
of inpact on another brand in over 50 years of using glass sights.

[Muddogg]

Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.

Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! 

Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...

[Nickle]

Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.

Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! 

Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...

Mudogg, rather than reinvent the wheel, why not rebuild 10/22's into what we use now?

I figure there is going to be an interest in them. We had several at Proctor, VT, both the Northeast loaners and a few owned by others.

Also, I've been asked to post some info on what I've done, and will do further, to the ones I'm using.

That is going to be a work in progress.

[Muddogg]

Well, like I said, I've never seen it happen(although I did put an air rifle scope on a .22 and that didn't last 10 seconds) but I'm just going to keep going the safer route.

Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good. So that's what I'm going with, I'll post a picture up here when I am done, so no one go anywhere for the next several months! 

Hey, if it works well and it doesn't take too much time and money, I might just think about making it a prototype for future business...

Mudogg, rather than reinvent the wheel, why not rebuild 10/22's into what we use now?

I figure there is going to be an interest in them. We had several at Proctor, VT, both the Northeast loaners and a few owned by others.

Also, I've been asked to post some info on what I've done, and will do further, to the ones I'm using.

That is going to be a work in progress.

True, The sling system of the M1 carbine probably won't be adequate enough for teaching proper sling use, so that is a minus. Basically I just want to make a 10/22 to be the "training wheels" of some of the military rifles you see at Appleseeds(come to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?).

I've also seen so many of those crazy drop-in kits in ads and SGN, such as the MG-42 style, Pullpup, and "Krinker Plinker" designed to look like an AK-74U, but no older versions of the guns we love, so I was thinking of working on that.

I'm looking forward to seeing your improvements on the LTR, I'm sure they will be awesome!

A burning question in my mind at the moment to everyone on this forum: What are you looking for in a training rifle as an instructor or as a student?

[Nickle]

Well, here's what I did (or will do, in the case of a couple items), the cost of the items, and this is a decent priced, working setup. All prices are retail. They are not special or sale prices, nor are they group buy prices. These are 24/7/365 retail prices.

First, I started with Ruger 10/22 Carbines.

Add Tech Sights. Add DPMS Rapidex knob, for ease of adjusting (optional).
http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm $55.00
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=353544 $8.49

Install sling swivels studs, detachable swivels and a USGI M1 Garand type sling.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=705310 $9.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777813 $10.29, black, also comes in green.

Add extended mag release.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=662086 $4.49

Replace bolt release and hammer (or rework existing ones). I reworked mine. Not for the inexperienced.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=145851 $35.99

Add a BoreSnake, sight adjusting tool and spare mags.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260083 $14.49
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=260328 $6.99
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=252579 $12.99 each. I recommend at LEAST 3 of them.

[CB3]

Muddog said: "Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good."

Here's mine:



Shoots great for adults or my 11-year old grandson. Started with a 10/22 carbine (shorter stock/barrel, no barrel band), added tech sights, black poly forearm, detachable sling swivels, ext. mag release, reground bolt release, trigger work (4 lbs, smooth), bolt buffer, leather sling. It's small and light, so it will waive if not held steady, but it shoots @ 25 meters just fine. Rifle = $225 OTD, accessories = another $100.

CB3