10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

[redman1]

went to the range today with a couple of hundred rnds od cci mini mags and original ruger magazine

not even one malfunction

tried the cci in banana clips and low and behold malfunction
guess where those mags are goin??

[double_action]

This is from Rimfirecentral.com

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9

Stovepiping: the partial ejection of a fired case, usually leaving the open mouth of the case sticking out of the ejection port, looking like a "stove pipe", and thus jamming the action of a semi-automatic firearm.

Stovepiping is caused by the slow or incomplete cycling of the bolt...! !

Causes of the slow or incomplete cycling of the 10/22's bolt:
0 Gummed-up action: the Ruger applied 'preservative' was not removed before firing, or oil was used as a lube...! !
0 Rifle was stored vertically after cleaning, allowing oil to run into the action & gum-it-up...! !
0 Unlubed or rough "Bolt Handle Guide Rod" [B-7]...! !
0 Action not lubed with a dry Teflon type spray lube or "CLP"...! !
0 Action not 'broken-in' yet..! ! Normally it takes 1 - 2 bricks [500 rds ea.] of High Velocity ammo to 'break-in' a 10/22's action...! !
0 Use of Standard Velocity or Sub Sonic ammo...! !
0 Aftermarket action parts misinstalled...! !
0 Scope base mounting screws rubbing on the top of the bolt.
0 "Hammer Strut Assembly" reassembled with the 'slot' of the "Retaining Washer" facing down; it must face UP...! !
0 Use of a non Ruger magazine...! ! Use a Ruger BX-1...! !
0 Magazine not seating with a 'click'...! !
0 Dirty or untuned magazine(s); see the "Sticky" Post at the top of this Forum for "Magazine Service"...! !
0 Magazine touching the stock in magazine well; can you pass a business card up both sides of the magazine all-the-way to the receiver...? ?

Note: The 10/22 is a "blow back" action, and it does not need an "extractor" to extract and eject fired rounds...! ! The "extractor" is only need to extract unfired rounds...! ! The primary "ejector" is the last 1/4" of the left lip of the BX-1's magazine throat...! !

You will have to see which cause(s) best fit(s) your particular situation...! !

Hope this helps....! !

[Bob Wyre]

Sexy, very sexy with that color stock.

[slim]

Guys, I'm not knocking anyone here, and I believe you should have a nice LTR set up to get you shooting more and help you maintain your proficiency. It's your money, use it how you see fit.

But.... if you're spending several hundred bucks "upgrading" your LTR, you could've bought another LTR and had another shooter on the line with you. A true LTR set up is just under $300. When you're spending money on your rifles, keep the mission in mind.

Is it better to have 1 shooter shooting 1-MOA or 2 shooters shooting 4-MOA? They both cost about the same price!

[slim]

went to the range today with a couple of hundred rnds od cci mini mags and original ruger magazine

not even one malfunction

tried the cci in banana clips and low and behold malfunction
guess where those mags are goin??

See if you can trade them for factory mags or sell them on gunbroker or another site like that.


Find what works for you and then go with it!

[smle]

I need to ask, does your banana clip have steel lips? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the plastic lipped clips could cause those kind of problems.

I've seen others use banana clips without a single malfunction all day. They were running the Federal bulk .22"s

smle

[double_action]

Slim, I hear what you're saying.

It's easy to go crazy with upgrading the 10/22, and I do love a project . .

I do think the only extras on mine are the barrel and maybe the stock. I built this because I need some serious trigger time and can't afford to shoot my M1A that much, plus I have a flinch I need to get rid of.

The bolt release and mag release are essential to keep it like my M1A. The hammer I got because the factory pull was ~8 lbs at least (I could hang the gun by the trigger and it wouldn't go off  ). The hogue sock is just more comfortable. I didn't need the bull barrel, but I got it anyway.

Here's how much I have it in:

10/22: $220
Barrel: $75
Stock: $40
Sights $70
Hammer $30
Bolt release: $12
Mag release: $10
Buffer: $4
Swivels and sling: $16

Grand total: $477

I think that's still reasonable.

[Puff-TMD]

This is from Rimfirecentral.com

http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382428&postcount=9

Note: The 10/22 is a "blow back" action, and it does not need an "extractor" to extract and eject fired rounds...! ! The "extractor" is only need to extract unfired rounds...! ! The primary "ejector" is the last 1/4" of the left lip of the BX-1's magazine throat...! !

While it is true that the extractor is not necessarily needed to complete the extraction of the case from the chamber in a blowback firearm (I have a pistol that functions perfectly well without an extractor), the extractor that is in the 10/22 performs an important function in the relatively closed geometry of the 10/22 receiver.  If the extractor does not have the proper grip, i.e. if there is gummy stuff on it and the bolt face, then as the case flies back and hits the ejector, the case may not be knocked away at the correct angle that will allow it to exit the ejection port.  (The pistol mentioned above has an exposed breach and has well over 180 degrees of ejection path freedom.)  In other words, proper ejection requires the extractor pinning the case and providing a pivot point.  This pivot point provides the correct exit angle for the case.

[fepowered]

if you're spending several hundred bucks "upgrading" your LTR, you could've bought another LTR and had another shooter on the line with you. A true LTR set up is just under $300. When you're spending money on your rifles, keep the mission in mind.

I paid an average of $100 for each of the LTR rifles I have started out with.  I picked up 3 stock and barrel sets from Gander for $100 a set on clearance.  1 build I got a barrel from Gander for $50 on clearance and ordered the Hogue stock from Brownells for $60.  The VQ hammer was around $30 from Brownells.
Not counting the Tech Sights I have no more than $250 for each of the LTR builds I have done so far.  I just picked up another project gun yesterday with less than 50 rounds through it and a new Butler Creek stock for less than $115.   This will be a skinny barrel LTR project for the kids who can't hold up a heavy barrel gun.

[MCKNBRD]

On the subject of 'economy LTRs', I'd recommend investing in a Dremel tool, if you don't have one already.  I used said Dremel to hog out the factory bolt release (saved $15) and to clean up all the pressed surfaces in the action (hammer spring guide comes to mind off the bat).  As far as the hammer, hop on www.rimfirecentral.com and look up 'hammer stoning' for a guide on how to make the stock 10/22 hammer work great.  I got the factory one down to around 5 lbs with a better, cleaner break than the VQ one I have in my squirrel gun.  If you have a vise and a good file, you can save $30 per hammer if you're so inclined.  Right there is $45 saved. 

I don't have a bull barrel on my LTR.  Nor will it ever wear one.  They're too heavy, screw up the balance (IMHO), and don't provide the 'bang for the buck' in accuracy improvement that you'll see at 25 yards.  If you get a cheap one, its roughly a hundred bones (before the Tech-sights adapter you have to buy) that can buy a couple of Ruger mags and 2 or 3 bricks of ammo, depending on what your rifle likes.

I have the factory stock from my first 10/22 on my LTR, and it works great.  The Hogue stock is on my squirrel gun, and I love it, but the advantages are null for a first time shooter.

Also, I hate to bad mouth anything Tech-sights has made (I LOVE the sights on my LTR), but the TSR200 is overkill for our needs.  It forces the front sight WAAAAAAY up too high, and I saw the problems at the last Ramseur Appleseed.  There are fixes (new, taller sight posts, spacers under the sights, etc.) but why invest in the problem?  You're not going to be engaging rabbits at 200 yards, so I don't think the extra adjustability is really necessary for our needs.  JMHO, of course.

Just my 2 pennies on the subject, YMMV.

[jmdavis]

I have to second the advice about the 200 model of the sights. I am the example from the Aug 30-31 Ramseur. I could not get the front site high enough (even with the rear all the way down to the point that it was in the mount) to be able to shoot any lower than 3" above point of aim while still engaging the detent with my 10/22 carbine. That might be fine for some people. But I just can't get used to that kind of "kentucky windage."

I ordered a taller front site last week, received it Saturday, installed it on Saturday night, sighted in the rifle at an Appleseed Mini on Sunday and finally shot a "Rifleman" score late Sunday afternoon.

I'm not saying that I don't like the 200. But I am saying that it cost me some extra time, work and money to get it right on my carbine.

[MCKNBRD]

One more point about bull barrels...the bull barrel tends to have a tighter chamber, which, especially on the .22LR, greatly contributes to accuracy.  But, it also makes the rifle its mounted in MUCH more ammo sensitive.

My squirrel gun, which wears an early VQ THM Tension barrel (circa 2000 or so), is very persnickity about the fodder I feed her.  My LTR, wearing the factory barrel, chews up and spits out about anything I can find.

Just another point of view.

JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on?  If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed.

[fepowered]

We all know that the Appleseed message and mission is clear.  4MOA with "rack" grade rifles.  Some of us are fortunate to be able to personalize our LTRs, but that isn't anywhere near a requirement to shoot Rifleman if you are doing your job.   I have repeatedly shot Rifeman scores with 10/22 and AR15 rifles with iron sights.   I know that it is me and not my rifle that earned those scores.   
I will never say that a heavy barrel is necessary as I shoot Rifleman with or without them, but I personally prefer them.   I am accustomed to shooting my AR15 which is heavier than a 10/22.   Same thing with the Hogue (rubber overmolded) stock. Not a necessity, but they sure are more comfortable than the hard plastic stocks like the Butler Creek or the factory wooden stock. I actually like the balance of my heavy barrel LTR.  If it feels a little heavy during off hand, then you can dry fire with a rope or belt over the barrel and a little extra weight hanging from it.   Just like everything else, your muscles need to be accustomed to your rifle of choice. 
I am on #4 10/22 LTR build with Butler Creek .920 barrels and have had zero issues.  They all eat a variety of ammo just fine.  I stick with Federal Automatch as they go bang every time for me.     I run both 200 and 100 Tech-Sights on .920 barrel rifles and have had no problems with the zero on any of them.   It may be possible that the 200 is more of an issue with some factory barrels???   I will be building a factory stainless barrel LTR rifle this week with a 200 sight. I will report any zero issues with it...   

[jmdavis]

"JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on?  If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed."

Actually on Sunday I switched to my AR and used that. We talked on Saturday and I believe that you told me about shimming the area of the recoil lug (or the closest thing to a recoil lug on a 10/22) to get the barrel higher.

[MCKNBRD]

"JMDavis, were you the guy I helped on Sunday, that we installed the sight riser on?  If not, that makes at least 3 that had problems at one Appleseed."

Actually on Sunday I switched to my AR and used that. We talked on Saturday and I believe that you told me about shimming the area of the recoil lug (or the closest thing to a recoil lug on a 10/22) to get the barrel higher.

Gotcha!  The shimming was Crash's trick; he talked about it during the RBC, using soda cans cut down.  I remember now!

jeesh...my memory is slipping pretty badly...of course, we had been out there for a week already, and I think my waterlogged noggin was about as full as possible.  Glad you got a good solution for your 10/22, and congrats on shooting Rifleman!

[Grunt Medic]

Hmmm - I'm tempted to post this in 'deals and steals' also, but I think I'll start here and wait for feedback, first -

The 10/22 LTR is designed to approximate the M-1A/M-14/Garand series of rifles.  But what does one of us do who wishes to approximate an M4 series rifle?  The ergonomics are very different, as is the manual of arms.  I think I may have a solution, especially for prospective Appleseeders who have (or prefer!) the AR-15 or equivalent.

A 10/22 is about $200-, and mags, sling, bases and swivels, and sights bring the price up to about $300-, or more if the shooter installs an aftermarket auto bolt release, extended magazine release, buffer, and jumbo cocking handle, as is common.  Another approach for an AR shooter is to buy a dedicated .22 upper.  Velocity Firearms offers one such for $299- at velocityfirearms.com.  For someone who already owns an AR, this upper plus a cheap carrying handle/rear sight might well be more appealing than buying and setting up a 10/22.  Relying on others' experience, I do not recommend trying to save a few bucks by using the M261 or Ciener .22 conversions ($150 - $220+) and risking damaging your expensive .223 upper for mediocre results.

In addition, Tactical Innovations has a special offer of 27 round .22 AR magazines that will work with the Ciener conversion and most dedicated .22 uppers (including the velocity upper) at 34.99 each - or 3 for 84.99 - at www.tacticalinc.com

I know several of us Appleseed members (and wannabes (or gonnabes) as in my case) are military - and this may well be of special interest to us.  Specifically, practicing the AQT with an M68 CCO has appeal.

Hope this information helps!

Trent

[wcmartin1]

Check out this thread by SGT Cap -

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3471.0

[Camljr]

Well,

I shot rifleman my first time at an appleseed in Piru, CA using a Marlin Model 60, 14 shot tube fed rifle.

Bought this thing back in 1985, put a lot of shots through it over the years.

I did have a cheap $30 3x7x32 scope on it though.

I attribute the end rifleman score to the teaching obtained that day at the Appleseed.

Appleseed rocks....

[scopeboy001]

I'm not shure about all of you guys but when it comes to rifles a ruger 10/22 is the first thing in my gun cabinet.

shure when i aquired it after my father bought it back when the 10/22 first came out on the market it was just a standard factory issue gun. and thus we come to the great point about 10/22's that (from what i've read) everyone here has dwelled upon in some form or another.
10/22's in my opinion are the ultimate rimfire rifle due to the fact that they are USER CUSTOMIZEABLE.
since i first came into posession of that old 10/22 i've done everything to it from adding a telescopic reddot sight, to taking the original wooden stock and free-floating the barrell (at the suggestion of Nickle (thanks)), to most recently adding an aftermarket replacement stock.

overall i've come up w/ a 80 yard tackdriver that looks B.A. ta' boot


experimentation with customization leads to great things.
because nothing works better than a man using a rifle that was BUILT FOR HIM TO USE.

long live the appleseed!!!

[Junior Birdman]

  You guys are completely missing the point on the LTR.

  As defined way back when, (Before this thread was even started), an LTR is a cheap, easy to maintain and shoot rifle used to LOAN TO OTHER SHOOTERS at an Appleseed event for the purpose of training.

  It isn't meant to mimic the manual of arms of any other rifle in particular, although it may. The 10/22 was chosen by most folks because, as it has been pointed out, it is easily found and purchased, has a huge aftermarket, and if the person you loan it to drops the thing in the gravel, it's no big deal.

  If you build a $700 rifle to use yourself, that's cool, I like that idea too. But it ain't an LTR. And I doub't you'll loan your beauty to the 12 year old girl on the line who needs a rifle. 

  Flame away!     JB

 

[Nickle]

JB's right. Why do you think I have 6 of them? Loaners.

[Grunt Medic]

Check out this thread by SGT Cap -

SGT Cap's thread is great - but unless I miss my guess, he has somewhere between 3-1/2 and 4 thousand dollars invested between his MBR and LTR - and that's a bit of a stretch for most of our members, I think!

scopeboy, you may well have a point - as far as I can see, Appleseed is about sharing what we know more than anything - but for me and others who are planning on going in harm's way, "Train as you fight" is an important maxim.  And my thoughts on this were started by an instructor who noted his LTR so closely approximated his MBR that he found himself unconsciously searching for a trigger guard safety on the firing line.

And that thought about sharing is why I set up my 10/22 LTR first - but my concerns about integrating Appleseed into my pre-deployment training is why I posted the above.

FWIW - if I've stimulated discussion, I feel I've done a good thing, if nothing else!

[wcmartin1]

FWIW - if I've stimulated discussion, I feel I've done a good thing, if nothing else!

Yep.  It's all good.

[scopeboy001]

grunt med. Has an excelent point.
train with what you use.
looking for a safety that isn't there is never a good thing, be it weather you are taking enemy fire, or have an 8point buck in the crosshairs.

The main reason that I use my 10/22 is b/c it is the rifle that I use in most situations (I hunt alot of small game).
the principal of practice w/ what you use has been common among clays shooters for decades.
get one gun you like, learn to shoot it well, never stray from it.

Plain and simple.

[Burke]

I did the auto bolt mod myself, and now I'm getting repeated jams because it is jumping up and interferring with the action when I fire.  When I hold the bolt lock down with one hand and shoot with the other, I don't have that problem.  The rifle fires properly.

Anyone else here have this problem, and if so, what did you do about it?

[GMB74]

I don't think you got the spring back in place properly. It should hold the bolt hold open down out of the way of the bolt until you push it up to catch the bolt and hold it open. Pull the trigger group back out and check. One leg of the spring sits on the BHO and the other sits under the crosspin that also holds the ejector.
Thus:
See pic at the bottom of this link:
http://riflestocks.tripod.com/trigger-travel.html

See third image down on this link:
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11017
"A" leg of spring should contact "A" pin.
"B" leg of spring should contact the bolt hold open at "B"

[Nickle]

Either that, or you might not have removed enough material from it.

Check the spring FIRST, then the BHO next. My bet is on the spring being wrong.

[Burke]

I had the bolt lock spring in wrong.  Thanks fellas.

[McM1900]

I just acquired my 10/22 a few weeks ago, and am LTR'ing it for this weekend's Minerva Appleseed.  I got the 20 inch DSP model w/ no barrel band, but I've run into a problem with replacing the factory sling mounts with a swivel mount.  Any ideas on how to get the originals off w/o ruining the stock?

[GMB74]

Unless yours are different than mine, just grab the swivel and unscrew the whole thing. They are one- piece, rather than a separate stud and swivel.
This makes replacement easy though. No drilling. Just screw the studs in the holes left by the originals, attach your swivels, done.