10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

[dwarven1]

   Since the purpose of the LTR is to train shooters in the basics and to mimic as closely as possible the MBRs, the purpose of the E&L Mfg connectors is to make the magazine hang down just like the MBR.

I'm still looking for something that will mimic my MBR for loading and safety ergonomics... I have an M1 Garand. 

[M1Guy]

Everything arrived yesterday (except the recoil buffer and rapidex knob) to set up my son's youth 10/22 and my used stainless. W00t!

The only trouble is the rear sight. My son's slid right out of its dovetail, but mine won't budge. I've tried smacking it out with a punch and rubber mallet, and it doesn't want to move. Is there some trick I missed? It's a flip-up notch sight with tiny screws for elevation adjustment.

Thanks!
Len.

[deolexrex]

Keep banging on it. Oh, and make sure you are moving it left to right. (as viewed from the shooter)

[VAshooter]

M1Guy,

The problem is the rubber hammer. Switch to a steel hammer and tap ligthly. Increase force until it moves and reposition your punch each strike so that it doesn't slip.

VAshooter

[J_T]

Or just leave it -- it doesn't interfere with the Tech-Sights.

[Puff-TMD]

Never seen this particular sight, but make sure there is not a (hidden?) set screw locking the sight in the dovetail.

[M1Guy]

The problem is the rubber hammer. Switch to a steel hammer and tap ligthly. Increase force until it moves and reposition your punch each strike so that it doesn't slip.

That did it!

Now I just have to paint it; it was used and had surface defects which I made worse trying to polish with a dremel. So today I sanded the receiver (with 600 sandpaper) almost down to bare metal, which also got the defects out. Tomorrow I plan to mask the inside of the receiver thoroughly, stick a dowel up the barrel (with tape around the crown) and paint it with Krylon camo flat black. Hoping for the best...

--Len

[Snake45]

If you degrease it thoroughly, you'll be fine.

I've found the high-temp auto engine or header paint to work even better for gun metal than Krylon camo.

[indyjoe]

I've never taken a 10/22 seriously, without a scope.  The given sights were just too close to the barrel to be comfortable to use.  Then a search gives me this thread and I find out about improving the 10/22 and Appleseed.  A week later, I have two LTRs built up.  I used two of the Gander Mountain 10/22s (nice looking rifles, without the barrel band) for $199.95 till the 15th and Tech Sights mounted.  It really transforms these rifles.  One is for me and one for my fiancee.  The triggers are pretty stiff, but I want to make sure they run well out at the range, before mod them too much. 

I haven't been out shooting in 6 years.  It surprises me to say that, but it has been that long.  Appleseed has gotten me excited to get back out and truly learn how to shoot a rifle.  Fred's target pack is already on the way. 

[deolexrex]

Oh, go ahead and mod the triggers. They really need it!   

[indyjoe]

For those using two Ruger 10 round mags, joined with the 2 way adapter, how do you arrange them?  I'm trying to decide if it makes more sense to have both mags mounted bullets forward or bullets opposite on the bottom.  Both would have their own method of flipping over to use the other side. 

[Snake45]

Well, how do you "flip over" your M14 magazine to shoot the bullets out of the other end of it? Arrange your 10/22 mag the same way. 

[Junior Birdman]

   If you're removing the magazine and flipping it over, you're not doing it right. That is what we refer to as negative teaching.
   Nope, you treat 'em like any other magazine and remove and replace with another one. 
   The advantage of putting the two together via the E&L Mfg thingy is that you (a) have a magazine that you can get your hands on, and (b) you have more capacity.
   You can shoot the entire 40 round AQT straight through that way.  You can also load them 2 and 8 and prep more rounds, (Two stages), giving you more time to learn by listening. 
   We're not trying to mimic exact rifle MOAs here, just build GROSS MOTOR skills. That's what the LTR is all about. What I practice on the LTR translates nicely to any MBR I own.  JB

[Snake45]

 We're not trying to mimic exact rifle MOAs here, just build GROSS MOTOR skills. That's what the LTR is all about. What I practice on the LTR translates nicely to any MBR I own.  JB

Exactly so. An LTR is about learning to watch the sights and learning to pull a trigger. An MBR is not a quick-reaction weapon (like a handgun or shotgun), whose operation must become unconscious and instinctive. And so the LTR is not a quick-reaction weapon or trainer, whose operation must become unconscious and instinctive. It's NICE if it CAN, of course, but it is absolutely not necessary to the utility of the LTR.

[indyjoe]

Thanks.  That is what I figured.  I'll put them together the way that fits best.

[3HOLEPETE]

Here's a technique the Texas Instructor Squad used to address the "different length of trigger pull" for younger students using the 10/22 LTR.

1. Acquire (1) take-off wood stock from a 10/22.

2. Remove the butt cap. This will not be used again.

3. Remove the rear sling swivel. This will be reattached later.

4. Cut-off (3) 1/2" sections from the end of the buttstock. Try to make straight, square cuts.
This will shorten the overall length of the stock by approx. 2", including saw blade width.

5. Take the last butt section (shortest length) cut-off from the stock and drill (2) pilot holes, for #8  wood screws, thru it, to reattach it to the stock using wood screws (just like the butt cap, but different hole spacing). Be careful not to drill the lower hole to low, as it may interfere with the rear sling swivel when reattached.

6. Use this drilled butt section to mark, and then drill (2) pilot holes in the stock and (2) remaining cut-off butt sections. All (3) butt sections should have the same hole spacing as the stock hole spacing.

7. Now redrill the (3) butt sections for clearance holes for #8 wood screws.

8. Acquire 3 sets (2 each) of #8 wood screws, round heads, of different lengths.
1.25" set for (1) butt section.
1.75" set for (2) butt sections.
2.25" set for (3) butt sections.
You may need slightly longer wood screws if your butt sections are greater than 1/2" thick.

9. You should now be able to attach 1, 2, or 3, butt sections to your shorten stock to adjust it's length to accomodate different lengths of trigger pull for younger students.

10. Drill the rear bottom of the stock to reattach the rear sling swivel.

11. You may want to acquire a slip-on recoil pad to add a non-slip, soft forming surface to replace the discarded butt cap. Slit the bottom of the slip-on part to slide past the rear sling swivel. A strip of Velcro around, or attached to, the slip-on part will secure the pad to the butt stock. You may also need to cut away some of the slip-on bottom section to avoid interfering with the rear sling swivel.

Note: You can check how long the buttstock needs to be by placing the stock along the inside of the forearm with the butt resting on the inside of the elbow joint. The pad of the trigger finger should just touch the lower portion of the trigger.

Thanks to Didactic for asking for this technique to be posted.

Happy Teaching.

Dennis

[slim]

I have the fancy-shmancy Tech Sites T-200 model or whatever it is, the one that costs more and has the rear elevation adjustment on it. I figured I'd order that one as my MBR (AR-A2 config. with the fancy-shmancy elevation adjustment on the rear) has it as well.

However, now that it's on there and I've used the Tech Sites a few times, I don't really see the need to get the improved model with the elevation adjust. (And definitely don't think spending the extra $15 or whatever it was is worth it.) 

Anyone out there actually use theirs? I don't know, maybe I just haven't been creative enough with mine, but it seems like it's unnecessary for LTR applications as the .22 is going to be shot at ranges where a quick elevation adjust ins't necessary. On an MBR like the AR, sure, it's a VERY convenient feature and for those ordering Tech Sites for their SKSs, maybe it's good to have. But, for those ordering Tech Sites for an LTR it seems like saving the extra money and going with the base model T-100 would be better.

Agreed, disagreed? Have you used your elevation adjust?

[Junior Birdman]

   My LTR gets lots of use from many different sized and shaped shooters at Appleseeds.

   YES! I do use the rear sight elevation! A Lot! I've found that in some cases you will run out of elevation using only the front sight to adjust. Sometimes you have to use both.

   So if you're building a 10/22 for yourself I'd say it most likely wouldn't matter.

   But if you're building an LTR, a rifle to build Riflemen, a rifle to loan out at Appleseeds, a rifle to fit many different shooters, then the 200 is worth the extra money.  JB

[Old Dog]

Those drastic elevation changes probably show that many folks have a cheek weld that results in the front sight post not really being centered in the peep sight.  If the front post was centered (meaning really centered top/bottom/left/right) no sight changes should be required unless different ammo changed the point of impact.

[Junior Birdman]

   Or, it could mean that people's faces are different than mine, so they have a different cheek weld and hence, a different sight alignment. JB

[wcmartin1]

   Or, it could mean that people's faces are different than mine, so they have a different cheek weld and hence, a different sight alignment. JB

Yep.  Everyone's zero can be slightly different.  Even with a scope.

[Old Dog]

the rear sight has the same ID no matter who is shooting the rifle

The front post is the same height no matter who is shooting the rifle

if the post is exactly centered by the shooter the point of impact doesn't change

I agree its an alignment issue, because the eye is not centering the front sight in the peep

and yes, it happens with a scope.  It happens with both iron and scope sights with the same shooter, as you transition from one target to another if you allow your eye to move in relation to the sight then your group moves.  I will never forget the first Appleseed I went to and the shoot boss looking at my target and saying, "Wow, nice group, any idea why its not where it should be?"  At the time I didn't know.  Now I do.

[wcmartin1]

Roger that.

[slim]

So basically what you're saying is I wasted the money on "my" LTR (since I have a fat face and hence, a "perfect" cheekweld) but I should definitely put them on the next Liberty Training Rifles I build, the ones that are going to be "Loaner Training Rifles?"

Excellent point, thanks for the reply!

I'm guessing I should also have the T-6, Super Stock, or "Texas-style" stock on there as well, right?

[Junior Birdman]

   Not a big fan of the T6. It has no place to cheek weld. Needs a higher comb. Most "tacti-cool" stocks have no means for a decent cheek weld. I like the factory wood or the Christie Super Stock . It has an adjustable comb and will fit most anyone. If you're making an LTR, you musy consider people from 9 year old girls to 6' 6" professional wrestlers. (Or, Rasslers where I'm from)   JB

[wcmartin1]

So basically what you're saying is I wasted the money on "my" LTR (since I have a fat face and hence, a "perfect" cheekweld) but I should definitely put them on the next Liberty Training Rifles I build, the ones that are going to be "Loaner Training Rifles?"

I think it's a good idea to have the adjustment capability on every rifle.  Who knows who'll be shootin 'em in the future.  As you progress through the program you may allow "your" rifle to, in fact, become a loaner/trainer at any AS you attend given the right circumstance.

You may also want the capability should you decide to shoot at say... 200-yards with the LTR on a windy day just to see if you can do it.  

[Snake45]

Let's not forget what the T in LTR stands for. How many MBRs offer a perfect cheek weld to everyone? Not many I can think of. If you really want to TRAIN, you better learn to shoot with a less-than-perfect cheek weld. Learn to do what it takes to get your EYE in the proper place behind the SIGHT, regardless of where the stock happens to fall on your cheek (or, I guess, vice-versa).

A perfect cheek weld is a wonderful thing to have. Makes shooting any rifle more pleasant. But also learn to get along without it, because you might someday HAVE to.

[Johnnyappleseed]

Wow ....lot's of good information here.

[snowman357]

Why nobody uses the the front barrel band for their sling mounting.  I assume it causes accuracy problems maybe?  I have the rifle, sling, 6 mags and tech sight.  I have been looking at the clarke custom standard trigger kit, bolt release and mag release. Anyone have any experience with clarke custom trigger kits.  From their website the trigger kit mag release and bolt release will be $65.00 + SH.

Thanks Mike H

[Snake45]

I have the sling mounted on my barrel band, no problems at all. Looks good, works great! Couldn't like it more.