10/22 Liberty Training Rifles -- Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

[Junior Birdman]

   Y'all CLEAN your rifles?

[Muddogg]

   Y'all CLEAN your rifles?

LOL!

I know you're joking JB(at least I hope so ), but seriously though, the majority(probably 90%) of problems that come into Gunsmith shops is because the owner did not clean their weapon. I've cleaned out DECADES of grass bits, spiderwebs and crud to find out the problem was a dirty firearm. Please clean your rifles, at least the action, they'll last longer.

[Old Dog]

.22's are kind of funny.  I don't know that you'd see an issue with it being "too" dirty till it stopped working all the time.  Most folks never clean the action of a .22, only the barrel (if that) and wipe off the outside with an oily rag.  Most .22's don't "field strip" as easy as a military style rifle and so are even harder to clean well inside.  Of course most folks won't shoot their .22's as much in several years as one gets shot at an Appleseed.

Cleaning is a good thing.  Gives you the opportunity to remove crud that will eventually result in misfires, misfeeds, failures to extract.  Gives you the opportunity to examine internal parts for wear.  Gives you a chance to properly lube those same internal parts.  Reduces the frustration factor when you need it to go bang and it won't.

On the other hand too much cleaning can be a bad thing due to increased wear (from disassembly and improper cleaning) so do it right.  Using the newly formed observational powers/thinking processes of a rifleman (as you awaken and learn to be one) notice at different round counts and for different ammo types just how dirty your rifle is.  The break it down, clean and lube as required to keep it functioning correctly and shooting true.

[Nickle]

   Y'all CLEAN your rifles?

Nope, I don't. I've got a couple of tools for that job. They're called "Grandsons" (girlfriend's grandsons, 12 and 14), and that's how they repay the two of us for using the rifles, plus free ammo. The older one os pretty good at it. He can pretty much tear down any simple rifle and clean it right.

I'm tempted to get them t-shirts that say "Will work for Ammo".

[dwarven1]

the majority(probably 90%) of problems that come into Gunsmith shops is because the owner did not clean their weapon. I've cleaned out DECADES of grass bits, spiderwebs and crud to find out the problem was a dirty firearm.

My nephew's LTR came, used, from a gunshop, and I was absolutely amazed to see how much CRUD was built up in the action... and even more amazed when I remembered that it fired absolutely flawlessly when I test-fired it BEFORE the cleaning.

Needless to say, I've impressed on him that he will keep his rifle clean. 

[ChristopherAM]

I had a similar experience - I bought a 10/22 that dated back to the early 1970s for something like $90.  I was amazed that it was in such good condition: the stock was pristine, the barrel was clean, and the chamber only had superficial scratches.  So I took it out to the range and put about 100 rounds through it, and while the trigger was a little rough, the rifle functioned flawlessly.   Then I took it home and took out the trigger assembly, and it was so RAUNCHY I don't think it had EVER been cleaned.  I haven't tried cleaning it yet, but I honestly don't know if it can be cleaned, or if I'd want to use that trigger assembly again.  I have an extra trigger assembly from a 10/22-T (the rifle now has a KID kit in it), so I think I'm just going to use that assembly instead.

[Old Dog]

two words - brake cleaner

remove the trigger housing from the action and spray the crud out with the brake cleaner, then spray it with some rem oil for lub & rust prevention

[SGTCap]

two words - brake cleaner

remove the trigger housing from the action and spray the crud out with the brake cleaner, then spray it with some rem oil for lub & rust prevention

^thats my new method.

Prior to that I just didnt clean my 10/22.  I know it had well over 10k rounds without cleaning and it never stopped running with factory mags.

[TwoGlock]

   Y'all CLEAN your rifles?

I have to.  My wife won't do it for me...............

Gloom............. despair................ poor me................

[TwoGlock]

I had a similar experience - I bought a 10/22 that dated back to the early 1970s for something like $90.  I was amazed that it was in such good condition: the stock was pristine, the barrel was clean, and the chamber only had superficial scratches.  So I took it out to the range and put about 100 rounds through it, and while the trigger was a little rough, the rifle functioned flawlessly.   Then I took it home and took out the trigger assembly, and it was so RAUNCHY I don't think it had EVER been cleaned.  I haven't tried cleaning it yet, but I honestly don't know if it can be cleaned, or if I'd want to use that trigger assembly again.  I have an extra trigger assembly from a 10/22-T (the rifle now has a KID kit in it), so I think I'm just going to use that assembly instead.

When I do a detail clean (complete disassembly) I dump all the parts in a Wal-Mart plastic pan, spray with simple green, let soak for 15 minutes, brush with a toothbrush (the gun clean type) rinse with water, dry on a paper towel, and the parts are "squeaky" clean.  When dry I spray with Break Free let set a few minutes, wipe dry with soft cloth and reassemble.

I do the same thing with 10/22 magazines.

[dwarven1]

Tony (and M1A4ME) - don't bother with the brake cleaner. It doesn't work for crap. Instead, get a can of GunScrubber (gun stores, Walmart) - this stuff is so far ahead of brake cleaner it's not funny. It will take all that gunk right out. I love that stuff; it's great.

Anyone want a half a can of brake cleaner? 'Cause I sure won't be using it on my guns. I only bought it because I couldn't find a gunstore in NJ when I needed to get my nephew's gun clean. Bleah.

[wkt60]

Can any one walk me through sighting in my 10/22 at 25yrds with the tech sights (TSR200)
1. Where do I position my front sight to start?
2. Now what?

I've read the posts on the  sighting in the AR platform, doesn't seem relevant to me.... but I'm easily confused.
This is for my upcoming Appleseed shoot
Thanks




















































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[raf]

Can any one walk me through sighting in my 10/22 at 25yrds with the tech sights (TSR200)
1. Where do I position my front sight to start?
2. Now what?

I've read the posts on the  sighting in the AR platform, doesn't seem relevant to me.... but I'm easily confused.
This is for my upcoming Appleseed shoot
Thanks

After you've installed the TS100 sights, check the rear aperture and adjust if necessary so that it is centered between the 'ears" on either side.  Crank it all the way in one direction, and then crank it in reverse, counting clicks as you go.  Divide the total number of clicks by 2 and go back again that number of clicks.
Flip the rear Peep assy until "0-2" shows up below the peep, and you can see the "0-2" from your normal shooting position.  The TS200 has but one aperture, so forget this part for now and read on.

Now, just go to the range and shoot it off a bench.  Use a BIG target because the bullet strike could be a ways off.

Let's agree to adjust the rear sight first.  Once that's out of the way, we'll adjust the front sight.  Keeps things less confusing that way
As mentioned in the instructions, the adjustments are approx 1/8" @ 20 yd.  If the bullet's Point of Impact (POI) on the target is to the left of the point you aimed at (Point of Aim (POI)), adjust the rear sight the appropriate amount to the right.  If bullet hits to the right, move the rear sight to the left.  IOW, move the rear sight in the SAME direction you want the bullet to move.  The adjustment on your model of Tech sight rear sight only moves the rear peep from side-to-side; that's called a windage adjustment.  Advanced shooters sometimes move the rear sight to accomodate a blowing wind, hence the name windage.  There's no vertical (elevation) adjustment on your model of rear Tech sight.  We'll do that with the front sight which does have a vertical (elevation) adjustment.

The amount elevation adjustment on the front sight is still about 1/8" @ 20 yds, but the way you move the front sight is different from the way you moved the rear sight.

Remember how we said that when adjusting the rear sight you moved the rear sight in the direction you wanted the bullet to go?  That's true of every rear sight, and true for rear sight windage and elevation, too, if it has one or both adjustments.

Your front sight is moved Opposite to the direction you want the bullet to go.  If your bullet's POI (Point of Impact) is too high in relation to where you were aiming (Point Of Aim), and you want to move the bullet down, then you will adjust the front sight higher (move the post UP).  If you want to raise the POI, then LOWER the post.

I know this may be a little confusing at first, but there's a way to see this happening.  Go to the range and point the rifle at the target.  Sight in on the target.  Now, imagine your front sight has a post twice as high as it really does.  Move the muzzle down to simulate this.  See how the muzzle is pointing downwards from where it was?  If you raised your front sight post to twice its' normal height the effect would be the same, and you would have moved the bullets' POI down.  Now, imagine the post is half its' real height.  Move the muzzle up the correct amount.  Pointing up from where it was at first, right?  Bullets' POI would be higher, too.


For the TS200 sights, do the same, but Center the rear peep both horizontally (windage) and vertically (elevation) before starting the sighting-in process.  Crank it all the way in one direction, and then crank it in reverse, counting clicks as you go.  Divide the total number of clicks by 2 and go back again that number of clicks.  Do this for both the elevation and windage adjustments on the TS200.  Should be pretty close to being centered. 
Adjust the rear peep to get the correct windage on the target, and with the rear peep in the middle of its' vertical travel (elevation), adjust the front sight for elevation.

Front sight: move post in opposite direction to desired change in bullets' Point of Impact.  Post up, bullet down.  Post down, bullet up.

Rear sight: move peep in same direction as desired change in bullets' Point of Impact.  Sight left, bullet left.  Sight right, bullet right.  For the TS200 with an elevation-adjustable rear peep, it's the same principle: Rear peep up, bullet up.  Rear peep down, bullet down.

I've deliberately left out a few points that an advanced shooter might find interesting to know. Once you've got your sight squared away and are shooting good groups, we can revisit the topic if you like.

Good luck, and report back on how you did.

[ax238]

well posted, I am going to add this to the LTR thread I am (continuosly) working now.

If you don't mind Raf, I amy just almost copy and paste....

[ken grant]

 Go back and read his post again, he said he had a TRS200 which does have Elevation in the rear sight and not the flip aperture.
The TRS100 has the dual aperture.

[raf]

Go back and read his post again, he said he had a TRS200 which does have Elevation in the rear sight and not the flip aperture.
The TRS100 has the dual aperture.

You're right.  My error.  I revised to suit.

[Junior Birdman]

   I positioned the front sight base nearly flush with the base because I didn't like the way it was a bit sloppy against the spring pressure. It seemed more stable down low like that.  The rear sight adjusts as noted, but the instructions were WAY off as far as clicks per MOA.  On the Wal Mart special, (22" bbl), I found that each click of rear sight windage or elevation was equal to 0.8 MOA.  I supose it is slightly more for the carbine length barrel, possibly nearer to 1 MOA.  Anybody ever actually shoot a "box" with a carbine to see what it was?   JB

[yonder]

I was going to go out today to get my LTR foundation.  Dick's Sporting Goods has a fluted barrel model in a wood stock, or a stainless model in a synthetic stock.  No matter which way I go, it's getting dropped into a Tapco T6 anyway so the stock doesn't matter.

Between those two barrels, what would you pick and why?

[ax238]

I have a direction change in the LTR thread.

This for my LTR 'Okay got my rifle now what'  FAQ I'm writing.  I noticed there is a lot of discussion on mimicing the M1A and Garand.  But there is not a whole lot of discussion about mimicing the AR15.  I myself am interested in that b/c I am myself purchasing another LTR to be 10/22.  I plan on mimicing the AR15 platform.  I don't have a AR15 and won't for a long time.  But, many people do and I thought (as I plan on attending many shoots to come and also head down the instructors path) that I needed to have a AR15 mimicing LTR on head and experience with it for JUST the purpose of Appleseeds as well as general knowledge.

Can you all....

list good AR15 LTR stocks from different brands you have had experience with
length of pulls---  is adjustable stocks the way to go?
is the weight comparable?  what did you do the mimic it?
sling issues..  what sling can be purchased to be close to the mil surp sling?
ideas that brought down the same path?

Ax

[Junior Birdman]

   There's no question. The Cristie & Cristie "Super Stock" is the hands down winner.  It has an adjustable length of pull, pistol grip, acepts USGI slings, and comes in 4 lovely colors!  www.1022central.com

   You may have seen pics of my LTR on here somewhere sporting one.  I took off all that crap on the forstock, (vrtical grip, rails, etc)

   If you leave the rail on the underside of the forstock you can mount a QD swivel which instantly becomes an adjustable hand stop.  (I'm working on that for mine at present, since the first thing I did was remove the offensive "bling")

    The result is a rifle that is near the AR in weight, size, etc, which has the same grip and sights, has lots of aftermarket accesories, cheap, and is shot for a fraction of the price.  Mine is a perfect compliment to my AR.  JB

  PS- Just remembered that you can get it $10 cheaper from Cheaper Than Dirt if you are a buyers club member.

[Francis Marion]

One advantage of the AR platform is the versatility and choice in uppers; I'm leaning toward dedicated upper in 22lr.  Have seen a $200 upper made in Czech republic, but all vendors are sold out of it right now... see in Sportsman's Guide.  Dedicated uppers range from $200 to $1000.
Cheaper solution is the Ceiner adapter for ~$140.  (downside to Ceiner: 22lrs need slower rates of twist for best accuracy; if you have an AR barrel with a 1 in 7 twist, that's twice too fast for 22LR.)  If you can bite the cost bullet (ha ha) and spring for an AR right now, that is. 
In either case, you have the same sight picture, lower, and very similar weight and balance.
AR modularity is a huge design plus.
Haven't looked at 10/22 stocks to mimic the AR; figured for same $ as a tricked out 1022, can fashion a dedicated upper, supplying my own labor.   

[raf]

If you don't need or want the telescoping stock of the Tapco and/or Christie, consider a Butler Creek folder, preferably in stainless steel.

It is the most robust of all the folders I've seen, and the pistol grip has internal storage for spare parts and other goodies.

The folding portion of the stock is all metal, except for rubber buttpad, as is the entire locking mechanism.  It would be very hard to damage or wear out.

The fore-end can be drilled so as to allow the bolting-on of mil-spec rails on sides and/or bottom.  The rear sling attachment point will take some fiddlin' on the owner's part, though.

You will want to use a short length of grey closed-cell foam pipe insulation on the metal portion of the stock where your cheek rests.  MUCH easier on the cheek in hot and/or cold weather, believe me.  Secure it with duct tape.

Get one now before Hillary tries to ban them again and the price (if you can find one) goes through the roof, like it did last go-round.

[WrongWay]

I have a Winchester 190 22 cal semi-auto, i bought it thirty years ago shot 200 rounds are so and put it in the closet. Purchase date was approxiamtely 1977, winchesters had a good rep then.

Question, can i convert this like the 10-22, or should i find a ruger 10-22. I am really impressed with the stock makeovers , will winchesters convert very easily?

I am mechanically challenged    so this is very important .


tyvm in advance WrongWay

[cannonman61]

WW

I have made several tube fed .22 work for starter Appleseeders. But they have some difficulties to overcome. Mounting the front sling swivel is not as easy on them as 10-22s and the mag change requirement is changed on the line to loading 11 cartridges, firing two, ejecting 1 ( to simulate a mag change and break your POA) and the firing the remaining 8 rounds. This changes the challenge, but does not cheapen it.

190s are 2 piece stocks and I personally don't know of any aftermarket stocks or other supplies for that rifle.

The sights on the 190 are pretty rudimentary and not easily change and noone I know of makes a peep directly for it although there is a manufacturer that makes a generic pep sight that fits on a 22 dovetail, but it sits so high you will have front sight height difficulties and need a taller one that is one the rifle now.
That said, it is an easy thing to mount and scope on the weapon and use that sighting system until you beg, borrow or what ever another platform.

Don't despair. Do what you can, take what you have and the guys at Appleseed will help you out!

[Nickle]

I have one of those Winchester 190's myself. Had it for quite some time.

Well, as to doing the LTR modifications, here's a few facts.

You won't need to do the trigger on the 190, because it's already OK from the factory (unlike the 10/22).

You won't need to alter the bolt release, either, as it's already good (unlike the 10/22).

Sights are a whole different story. You could put a decent peep on the back, you'll need to figure out the front sight, though. I suggest a scope, which mine should be wearing before all too long.

The magazine, well, the 190 has a tube mag. Can't do anything there.

Mounting a sling can easily be done. Get a tube sling mount for the front, and a conventional screw type for the rear.

As to the stock, well, you're out of luck there.

But, I don't see a problem with the 10/22 stock, unless you're trying to make it like an AR, which I actually do NOT recommend if you're an AR owner. Why? Get a Ciener for your AR in that case. If you're a FAL owner, then I suggest the 10/22 and a Dragunov type stock.

Now, the bottom line. You say you are mechanically challenged?

Then do the simple version. Get a 10/22, all the parts mentioned in the LTR thread. That would be the extended mag release, bolt release hammer, Tech Sights and sling stuff. Get a local smith to install all of that for you, and forget the stock.

[raf]

I have a Winchester 190 22 cal semi-auto, i bought it thirty years ago shot 200 rounds are so and put it in the closet. Purchase date was approxiamtely 1977, winchesters had a good rep then.

Question, can i convert this like the 10-22, or should i find a ruger 10-22. I am really impressed with the stock makeovers , will winchesters convert very easily?

I am mechanically challenged    so this is very important .


tyvm in advance WrongWay

If the thing is 30 years old and practically unused, my suggestion is to keep it as-is.  Take it apart, clean it, replace anything it might need, but don't alter it.

If it's well-used, please describe your particular rifle, paying attention to type of magazine and the rear sight.

[Old Dog]

The 190's are the lower line semi auto (the 290 being the fancy looking rifle).  The dovetail in the barrel for the factory rear sight isn't the best place to try to put a peep sight (too far forward).  If some outfit makes an adjustable rear peep sight that clamps on the scope dovetail on the receiver it would put the rear sight closer to your eye and increase the sight radius.  Not sure what the barrel diameter on the 190 vs. the 10/22 is but some companies make combination front sight (with protective ears for the blade) and flash suppressor that pins on the 10/22 barrel - I have no clue whether or not one would fit a 190 but it might be worth doing some measuring.

[Nickle]

Williams makes the sight for it. They isn't a matched pair, you have to figure out what you need for a front sight.

FWIW, I found the factory sights to be less than correct elevation wise in the first place.

[Oohrah]

   Put a scope on that 190, I believe it's a dovetail receiver,
and shoot away.   I have one like you don't often use it as
I never had time to put sling swivels on it.   I remember it
being a good shooter with about everything you put in it.
Pretty sure it wears an old weaver C-4.

[WrongWay]

any suggestions about what scope, or maybe i should say what kind of scope?

Also, tyvm, to all who have/or will post?