Help Selecting My First AR-15

[Roland]

I think we can. One question before I brainstorm: Is this strictly for Appleseed, or is it intended as an all-around, do anything rifle?

Roland

[Charles McKinley]

Centerfire LTR=CMP M1 $525FG $625SC

[AlaSprout]

I think we can. One question before I brainstorm: Is this strictly for Appleseed, or is it intended as an all-around, do anything rifle?

I don't think it would be fair to ask you guys to spend your time on anything other than something for Appleseed.  That should help keep things focused, too.

[dronning]

There are several out there for <$700 but just make certain what you get is Mil-Spec so you can swap parts.

Trust me on this if you think you might be interested in CMP or NRA Service Rifle competition do yourself a favour a just bite the bullet and buy an Armalite or RRA National Match in either A2 or A4 format right away, you will save yourself money in the long run.

[.PPTRanger]

I'd also recommend assembling your lower: not only do you save some considerable funds, but it gets your hands and mind engaged in the inner workings of your rifle, which is great! I set up an AR for Appleseed myself some months ago, and if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably go for this:

a 20", heavy barreled rifle kit from Palmetto State Armory: $565 shipped (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/20-chrome-lined-heavy-profile-barrel-rifle-kit.html)

You mentioned you were planning on using optics, and that you already had them, I'll just recommend that you look into the LaRue mounts for getting things low and forward: when you're all slung up, nose to charging handle... you'll want that optic low and forward! The forged front sight won't be an issue with 98% of optics set ups.

Others have mentioned the BAD lever: on my civilian rifle, I run one, but at work I have to do things the old fashioned way: both ways work, but I prefer the BAD for Appleseed to keep things smooth. That said, I induced a few malfunctions before I was familiar with the setup... hit my mag release (hard) thinking it was the BAD, bolt went into battery from the shock (normal), and I was the proud owner of the one shot AR until I figured out what I had done. Not my smartest moment, but easy to work the muscle memory in with that dry fire practice!

I personally use the 20rd PMAGs for Appleseed, but not for the reasons most do: I just prefer the rounded edges, as I handle them somewhat roughly, and they come out of the USGI bandoleers significantly easier than the sharp edged USGI 20 rounders. They also stay off the deck in prone, and drop free of the magwell without fouling on the deck. They're not terribly expensive, and reliable.

While sling tension can and will affect your POI, I find the way Appleseed teaches to put tension on the sling in all position mitigates this: because you're always slung up, you'll never notice the difference!

[GoldFish]

I don't think it would be fair to ask you guys to spend your time on anything other than something for Appleseed.  That should help keep things focused, too.

This is just my honest opinion, but for a dedicated Appleseed AR, the best choice is an A3 type rifle: 20" barrel, standard triangle shape front-sight (either A2 or A3), detatchable carry handle in the back (in case you want to mount optics), maybe an after-market free-float if you feel that you POI is moving because of sling-tension...and that's it.  If a 20" barrel is too long to handle, get a 16" barrel with either a carbine or midlength gas system, whichever one fits you. 
If you want, get a good drop in trigger from Geissele or CMMG to make shooting a little easier.  But try to qualify with the stock AR trigger first.
As far as companies that make this set-up, give Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, and Rock River Arms a try.

Just like a .22 LTR, an 'AR LTR' should be kept simple and to a minimum.

My .02

[Roland]

Yeah. If you aren't planning on doing CQB with it, get a 20'' barreled flattop. .PPT ranger recommended the PSA kit. Get that, one of their lowers (if they come on sale again), a rear BUIS ( not necessary) the sling of your choice, and some ammo, and your GTG.

Otherwise, build a 16''' middy. The rest still appplies.

Roland

[dronning]

I agree with GoldFish specs with the addition of staying with an A2 style stock,  I'd also put a full float tube on it so the sling pressure won't impact POI.  You can get out of hand with this if you let it - see below.

Think hard about either a RRA or Armalite National Match as the way to go for a couple of hundred more than a base AR.

I shot RM with a stock 10/22 you should be able to do the same with a nearly stock AR 

Don't get crazy! (at least right away)
Here is a big $$ approach
I have about $1k into my 10/22 tac driver that I built after shooting RM:
20" Fluted SS GM barrel, KIDD 2 Stage trigger with long mag release, KIDD bolt, Tech-Sights, buffer pin, I went through 3 stocks before I found the one I like the Pro Mag Archangel Deluxe Target.  I have shot a 242 with this rifle.

Appleseed AR15 tac driver build specs - way overkill:
Upper - you wanted to use optics so you need to start with a flattop receiver get one with a side charging handle & bolt, much easier to operate than the std charging handle.
20" barrel 1-7 twist - with flash hinder because it protects barrel from damage
.223 Wylde Chamber - considered one of the most accurate
Float tube forearm - because sling pressure won't change POI - no quad rails
If you like the standard GI look get top quality thermoset handguards - You have to order a special float tube that fits under the handguards.   Again stay away from quad rails they will chew up hand/gloves. 
If you go with the GI style forearm & float tube there are lead weights kits so you can add some weight to balance the rifle and make it more stable (for A2 buttstock too) get the weight up around 15-16lbs and it's perfect (for me anyway).   
You could add a carry handle with sights at any time but then you also need a front sight.

Lower  - AX556 Full Ambi Lower Receiver (all controls on both sides), add a Geissele 2 stage Match trigger and an A2 style stock.  10 or 20 round mags.  I like the 20 round pmags too.

If you shop right you would be in it for about $1,700 w/o optics but then you could add a nightforce scope for another $2K

[TxBobS]

I will add an observation about the 16".  I have one and the front sight is right at the edge of my aging eyes ability to focus.  I had a really hard time with it at Appleseed.  Not being able to keep the front sight in clear focus was a big deal.  So depending on your age, there could be more to factor in to the barrel length.

[mac66]

I've built 8 AR15s over the years using various parts and uppers, many bought used. IMO, just about any 16" or 20" bbl is accurate enough for AS. Just about any lower receiver with basic parts is good enough.  Everything else (stocks, grips etc) is just preference or how much FOO-FOO you want to put on your rifle.

My only "real" AR is a S&W M&P 15 ORC (Optics Ready Carbine) which was a retirement gift.

In other words, just about any off the shelf AR or parts kit is good enough for AS or everyday use. 

If however you intend to shoot in those run and gun, shoot thousands of rounds in a weekend training schools you should consider a few higher end parts or at least have spare parts available.  Kind of like taking your daily driver to a race track and expecting it to hold up. Ain't gonna happen.

Personally I am more of a KISS guy. My go to AR is an 16" carbine with a A1 light weight bbl upper, basic CAR stocks, on a Stag lower with GI mags.  It is light, handy, has basic A1 sights. No optics, no chrome lining, no lights, lasers, rails or other FOO-FOO. No designer parts, stocks, grips. Nothing with a word that begins with a Mag or La on it. Just a basic carbine which has worked for me for the last 20 years.  And yeah, I can shoot rifleman with it.

[slim]

+1 for Mac66. No foo foo necessary.


And just something for all you guys to consider. If you're dropping several grand on ONE rifle, consider how many trainers that would buy and the number of people you could teach to shoot 4 MOA with those rifles.

[GEmanuel]

+ another for Mac66 w/ one caveat for versatility.
I do loan my personal dedicated .22 upper unit to attendees. (My M&P 15, No)
It is equipped with a Magpul stock, which can be adjusted to fit
just about anyone, wearing any sort of clothing. Other than that, no goodies, they just get in the way.
That's my "foo, foo" and I am sticking with it. 

[mac66]

+ another for Mac66 w/ one caveat for versatility.
I do loan my personal dedicated .22 upper unit to attendees. (My M&P 15, No)
It is equipped with a Magpul stock, which can be adjusted to fit
just about anyone, wearing any sort of clothing. Other than that, no goodies, they just get in the way.
That's my "foo, foo" and I am sticking with it. 

Ok, everbody is allowed a little FOO for versatility sake.  Just never go FULL FOO-FOO. 

[slim]

You went full foo foo, didn't ya?

Like the foo fooest mother to ever walk the earth. You never go full foo man. Shoot, everybody know that. Full foo foo. Darn.


HUuuuuuzzah!

[Barbie]

You went full foo foo, didn't ya?

Like the foo fooest mother to ever walk the earth. You never go full foo man. Shoot, everybody know that. Full foo foo. Darn.


HUuuuuuzzah!

Semi-Foo, yes. Full Foo, no. You went full foo, man. Never go full foo. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full foo, went home empty handed...

[Two Wolves]

Now, who's full of FOO! 

[AlaSprout]

Gentlemen,

Would there be anything wrong with the Colt Model LE6920MP-B as an Appleseed rifle?

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx

[didactic]

Is that vertical foregrip removable?  Is there a convenient way to attach a 1 1/4" sling to the fore-end?

Assuming the answer to both of those is "yes," it looks fine to me.  I'm not familiar with that particular model.

[Nickle]

I've used the 14.5" barrel version of their LE6920SOCOM model, and found it pretty good. Mine had covers over those "cheese graters, though. My current AR is a pretty close copy of it, sling mounts under the barrel (better than beside the sight) and the barrel is a 1-9" twist (and the barrel is 16" of course).

[9mm4545]

Gentlemen,

Would there be anything wrong with the Colt Model LE6920MP-B as an Appleseed rifle?

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCarbinesII.aspx

Normally the vertical grip is easily removable and you just use a clamp on type sling swivel on the Picatinny rail. Should work fine for Appleseed.

[Roland]

Nope, there's nothing wrong with that. I personally believe there are better options for Appleseed, as I've stated, but you can't go wrong with a Colt.

[The Wolfhound]

Outside of the short sight radius and the short forend, it looks fine.  As you solicited reccomendations, mine is go with a 20 inch barrel and a full forend.  Those are the issues I fight on my M4gery.  Can it work? Oh yeah!  Can it be improved on? I think it can.

[SSG Platz]

When I first bought my Ar I just got the low end DPMS Vietnam style one that didn't even have a dust cover. And I shot the hell out of it while I built a custom upper that was exactly what I wanted. As I got the money I built a flat top upper with a med hvy mil spec barrle free float barrel and a piston system. Then once I got it exactly how I wanted I swapped the uppers out and sold my old one to my buddie who wanted it and it paied for a good deal of my new one. If your worried about it getting "dirty" look into a piston system mine is fantastic, I've got 12 years with the AR rifle and I will never go back to blow back gas systems ever again, at least not for my personal rifle.

Also I feel you need to know a little about the history of the rifle before you judge it on its malfunctions. Back in Vietnam when it was first issues it was called "self cleaning" was not cromelined in any way whatsoever, and wasn't even issued with a cleaning kit. It was hailed to the troops as the space rifle that never needed to be cleaned. After a short time in the field it's short commings were made apparent and cleaning kits where then issued. Also the new rifles that were issued where Crome lined which cut down on fowling as well.
As I mentioned before I have 12 years with these rifles, and multiple deployments down range as well and I can tell you that 99.9% of malfunctions I had with my weapon was due to bad magazines. When you buy mags go with magpul they may be a little more expensive but I'll be damned if you don't get what you pay for.

~PlatzOut~

[AlaSprout]

So, what's the difference between a "Direct Gas System" (this rifle) and a "Piston System"?

[didactic]

Direct Gas Impingement rifles have a vent hole a ways down the barrel, and a tube that runs from the "gas block" and takes pressure, (from behind the bullet, after it passes the vent hole) carries it to the receiver, and uses that pressure to push the bolt carrier back and operate the action.  The pressure then vents into the receiver.

Piston rifles have a similar vent that lets the same pressure push a piston, which pushes an actuator rod, which pushes the bolt carrier back, via a mechanical linkage.  After pushing the piston, the pressure vents from the piston housing, mounted out on the barrel, well forward of the receiver.

Others will undoubtedly add more details, but, in general, DGI rifles will crud up with powder gas residue over time, in general "run dirtier."  Critics describe that as "pooping where it eats."

Piston rifles run cleaner, but have more parts and are a little heavier and cost a little more money, all other things being equal.

The original Stoner system, and current military AR-platform rifles, are DGI actions.  They came first; piston-based AR-platform rifles are a more recent innovation.

[oladcock]

All either system does is onlock the bolt, past that it's a recoil operated semi just like a 10-22. Those who will use it as a "rifle", 200-300 hundered rounds between cleanings, the gas system isn't a big deal. Those who want to spray and pray a 1000 or more rounds per afternoon, the piston is the way to go, cleaner and cooler....O.L.

[SSG Platz]

Cooler + Cleaner= Longevity. Yes it's a little more expensive, but it will last longer and really if you look at one of these no name company's that make ar's you can pick up a decent one for $400-500 bucks, if you look at Colt or Any other "high end" AR platforms your going to spend between $1,100-2,100 and for what just a name, and most people once they spend that much on their rifle they don't want to do anything to it. You can get an Adam's Arms piston kit for under $400 or a complete upper for $1,200.
My advice would be, to go to a 3rd party sight that has reviews of their products look at all the low end Ar's find a few that you like and check out the reviews, then buy it because in about 2 years all that you will have left of that original AR will be the lower receiver and possiblely the upper receiver and it gives you more free cash for upgrades.

[AlaSprout]

Thanks for all the input so far. 

How are BUIS used when a scope is mounted?  Does the scope have to be removed?

[SSG Platz]

Depends on what kind of optic you have on your rifle, I run a TA-31-RCO which you have to remove, also if you used a traditional rifle scope you would have to remove it as well. If you have a 68 (aim point comp 2 or 3) or a  SU-231/PEQ (EoTech M553) you can use your iron sights right through it, this is called Co-witnessing. But almost any optic you get now days you can either purchase with or pick up aftermarket quick disconnect. But beware any time you take off your optics they have to be re zeroed, it may not be off by much when you go back to make your adjustments but it will be off.

~PlatzOut~

[GoldFish]

When a scope with magnification past 1.1X is mounted, then the BUIS are not going to be seen through the optic.  They are there in case you aren't using your scope for any reason (such as if it brakes or if you just want to swithc to irons).  If using a variable power scope with the option of a 1X magnification or maybe a red-dot optic, also with 1X/no magnification, then, as Sergeant Platz stated, you can 'co-witness' your irons through the optic.  However, unless you're doing some sort of 'tactical'/CQB course, then you should probably just use one at a time; using both when engaging targets at 100 yds (simulated distance or KD), you should just use the optic OR the sights.  And DEFINITELY keep in mind, as SSG Platz also stated, that unless you get a LaRue Tactical mount, your optics will almost certainly need re-zeroed after being removed.

Thanks for all the input so far. 

How are BUIS used when a scope is mounted?  Does the scope have to be removed?